Re: Newbie questions
gypsylassie
---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote : I need to choose between either the oDTP cubes which cost $32 with tax for 50 pounds or the mountain sunrise Timothy pellets which cost$20 for 50 pounds.when I crunch the numbers based on what I'll be feeding it is $112.50 more expensive to feed the cubes.each month vs the pellet Hi LJ, I don't have time to get into the nutrition with you, still dealing with a very unwell husband ( 11 hrs in surgery today), but one thought on the ODTBCs. If you can store them properly, the cubes last a good long time, just like properly stored baled hay. Perhaps if you take a whole pallet you can get a better price. That's what I do and stored on the wood floor in the haymow they keep very well. It's a big chunk of $$, but better value in the end. I can just get a pallet load in my pick up truck with a topper on it. Laura K. Chappie & Beau N.IL.2011
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Newbie questions
lj friedman
Remember I'm new to this so don't take my ignorance as a reflection of the group. Im a slow learner My first question concerns alfalfa hay which I remember being one of the lowest Hayes in sugar starch. If a horse could eat alfalfa hay and do well on it, wouldn't that be a fine thing where no special feeds are necessary? Next question, assuming that alfalfa hey is not a good choice, I need to choose between either the oDTP cubes which cost $32 with tax for 50 pounds or the mountain sunrise Timothy pellets which cost$20 for 50 pounds.when I crunch the numbers based on what I'll be feeding it is $112.50 more expensive to feed the cubes.each month vs the pellets I know the cubes have things that the pellets don't have.but because I've learned things on the group I have a non-Cushing's horse that I am now feedingtriple Crown omega flax, farriers formula, vitamin EE. So when I do my calculations and I use the cost of the pellets in my calculations, I don't include the cost of the carriers farriers formula or the Omega flex or the vitamin EE because I'm giving it to my non-Cushing horse and even though they do have a cost I don't care about the cost because I'm using these products anyway. Whether. .so with that being said if I had to choose between the pellets with the supplements that I am adding or the cubes that cost me one 125.00 more per month, what am I missing with the pellets and the supplements i include Vs , what the cubes offer with no supplements being added . LJ Friedman San Diego November 2014
Sent from my iPhone
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Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Erin,
Ivermectin won't target the encysted strongyles directly. It kills the egg laying adults. Then some of the encysted strongyles, if there are any, will emerge to take their place. Dose again to eliminate this 2nd batch. Then do the cycle again to catch any stragglers. FEC doesn't test for encysted strongyles. Are your three turned out together? If so, need to deworm all of them on the same schedule/time so they don't pass things off one to the other. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan05, RI EC Support Team
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Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?
In Message 182434,Dr. Kellon says,"For encysted Strongyles, use either Quest or regular dose ivermectin for 3 treatments, three weeks apart. "
Lorna in Ontario,Canada https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy. http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc
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Re: Testing
janieclougher@...
Hi, Heather - You are correct: ACTH, insulin, leptin and glucose. ACTH pulled into a purple-topped tube; others into serum separator tubes. All spun within 4 hours, separated, frozen overnight then sent to Cornell. You are also correct in that it is non-fasting; have hay in front of them up until the blood test; and test 4 hours after the first meal of the day. If they have free-choice hay all night, then no need to wait the 4 hours.
Let us know how it turns out :) Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
---In EquineCushings@..., <hleonard.bci@...> wrote : Hi, Recently, I had some body work done on my horse and it was suggested that I evaluate her for Cushings. .... Heather Mass 2000
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ivermectin for encysted strongyles?
chf1752@...
My girls are due for their annual treatment for encysted strongyles. I was a bit surprised to see ivermectin recommend as a treatment, since I've only seen moxidectin or fenbendazole recommended. I see there's some concern about the fenbendazole causing ulceration to the colon, which is something I definitely want to avoid. But 2 of my horses are minis, so Quest isn't an option for them. Where is the evidence that Ivermectin is actually effective in targeting encysted strongyles? I've read through the 2013 deworming guidelines, but I didn't see any links to proof of ivermectin's efficacy for this purpose. Bella received a dose of Quest in June. Does that mean she's covered for the year for encysted strongyles? Before Quest her FEC was 80 strongyles. After Quest her FEC was 1 strongyle. Erin ME 2014
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Re: Prascend
janieclougher@...
Hi, Janna - Evitex (chaste tree berry or Vitex agnus-castus extract) will certainly help with some of the symptoms of PPID, especially shedding issues. However, it does not appear to control the production of ACTH and some other hormones involved. Most horses that are started on Evitex end up being put on pergolide to control PPID. Pergolide is still the only medication that can help replace the action of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Anecdotal evidence is showing that control of PPID in earlier stages helps slow or even stop the excessive growth in the pituitary that is responsible for the high output of hormones occurring in PPID.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
There is a good explanation here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/physiology-of-ppid-cushing-s-disease
Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
---In EquineCushings@..., <tjburdett2@...> wrote : I see you have started your mare on Evitex. What is your thoughts of the product --
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Re: Prascend
Janna Burdett <tjburdett2@...>
I see you have started your mare on Evitex. What is your thoughts of the product
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:53 PM, muriel318@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
Elva J Mico
On 12/11/2014 4:10 AM, kerry.isherwood@yahoo.com [EquineCushings] wrote:
Thank you so much, ladies, for your swift assurances that my geldingMy Tennessee Walker, Whiskey, has a leptin reading of 16.....I have not yet figured out how to lower it. Elva and Angel Satin 2004/NM
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Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription
Now here's the Database link: >And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses. Lorna in Ontario,Canada https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy. http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc
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Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription
Thank you Dr. Kellon, > We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on compounded drugs. Also, some of the high doses horses are on compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost was prohibitive otherwise. And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses. Lorna in Ontario,Canada https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy. http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc
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Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription
---In EquineCushings@..., <jenmcgeehan@...> wrote : I went on line and it indicated that Cyproheptadine (Periactin) doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective compared to Pergolide. But I didn't see anything in regards to the combination. = = = = = = = = = = You didn't see anything because there is nothing there! The suggestion came from the BI sponsored Endocrinology Group but with no formal data at all to support it. The objection to dosages over 5 mg also comes from BI, but again with no data. They make two general claims. One is that horses on over 5 mg/day have more side effects but we have 51 (out of 268) horses, 19%, in the pergolide database, most for several years, with no higher reports of side effects or suspicious health problems. The other claim is that horses that need high doses must be on low potency compounded drug. We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on compounded drugs. Also, some of the high doses horses are on compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost was prohibitive otherwise. If you read Prascend's New Animal Drug Application presented to the FDA http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM280354.pdf There is only formal safety data (i.e. including a control group) for dosages up to 2 mg. The adverse event reporting, which included 113 horses with no controls, only their baseline history, also only evaluated up to a 2 mg dose despite the fact that 41.6% of horses remained with abnormal lab values after 90 days on 1 mg/day and overall success rate at 180 days including horses on both 1 and 2 mg/day was 68.6%. The suggested upper "safe" dose of 5 mg/day (it was 3 mg/day when Prascend was first introduced in the USA) is based entirely upon that being highest reported dose found in the published literature (literally just a handful of horses)- NOT on formal safety studies. It would be more accurate to state that safety of dosages above 5 (or 3) mg has not been studied. As for the cypro, it is an old treatment with limited usefulness that was discarded long ago in favor of pergolide. Again, there is nothing to support the idea that the combination would be more effective than pergolide alone. Eleanor in PA EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
Dr. Cartmill was the first to make the correlation between high leptin and IR in horses. His dissertation is here:
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-04152004-095658/unrestricted/Cartmill_dis.pdf I'm not ruling out a role for gabapentin in this yet. Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
Kerry Isherwood
Thank you so much, ladies, for your swift assurances that my gelding is indeed not the outlier of leptin resistance that I fretted over. He is, in fact, in good company it seems! :)
I find it very interesting that my 20yo mare--the quintessential IR model whose fat pads have their own fat pads--had a leptin of only 4.19 at her highest, while my svelte gelding, who has many times been mistaken for a Thoroughbred, is in perfect body condition w/o a trace of any visible fat on him, yet has a leptin of >8. Just when you think you know horses.... ;) Thank you, Kerry in NY Sept 2014
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
My Morgan mare's Leptin level was 8.8 back in February. I have been able to keep her insulin levels down right around mid-range (non-fasting) and she has been doing well. I will retest her Leptin in a few months to monitor change.
Claudia & Silhouette 2014 California https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/
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Re: International Volunteers Day
Laura Cull
I only joined a couple of months ago but I am deeply grateful for this group and the dedicated volunteers. EC is a devastating diagnosis to come to terms with. Without this group I don't know how I would have sorted through all the information and misinformation to figure out how to best take care of my beloved horse.
Thank you so much for all your dedication. Laura & Hope Oct 2014 Kelowna, BC, Canada
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Re: International Volunteers Day
bigwhitevan2002
---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote : >>>>>>>>>>I just want to emphasize that each and every person on this group is important.,<<<<<<<<<< So true Dr. K , but I'm not letting you put down your 'super hero cape ' that easy, I am convinced you never sleep... Thank you for being the veterinary voice of reason, knowledge, and scientific basis, when the tides of doubt are assailing my ( our) ears as so spoken by a majority of the main stream Veterinarians , My hat is off to you and all the dedicated people on this list, who have helped me in the past 10 years in managing several different horses and ponies... here's to another 10 more....( I cannot believe I just said that LOL, but getting off this list would be so , so....uncomplicated and boring.) With much gratitude to all, Julie in Oregon, with Pony, Richie , Kayla, Durango (rip) KoKo ( rip) and many more who have been assisted in the proper protocols due to the selfless dedication of all.... EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Kerry,
Know of one member whose mini came back with a leptin of 15.66 so yours is not that bad in comparison. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
chf1752@...
Bella's leptin was 10.89 back in 2011. Insulin 79.66, glucose 88 and ACTH 24. All done at Cornell. Fat and blubbery like a walrus, over 200lbs overweight. She was ~20 years old at the time. She's a large pony, most likely a Welsh Cob/Arab cross.
3 years later and massive diet and lifestyle modifications have gotten that 200lbs off her, but she does have those residual fat pads. Any time she's stressed, they puff up again. Her most recent glucose came back at 70, and I'm waiting on her insulin results. Erin ME 2014 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/
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Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?
Leigh Jacobs
Hi Kerry, My 20+yo Shadow's leptin is >9 ng/ml. Based on some reading of human research papers, I am correlating it to his huge, nondiminshing appetite. He is a TWH, so called easy keeper and has not had out of normal insulin or glucose values. He is not PPID. However, based on what I have read from Cornell and this group, I am treating him as an IR horse, increasing his fiber, decreasing his concentrates, and trying to get him turned out every day, or ridden. He is a jumpy/nervous horse, but I have always attributed it to his young years in the show ring. Makes me wonder if the people in leptin studies have issues as well??? Leigh, Ace and Shadow Tucson, AZ 2011
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 11:54 AM, "kerry.isherwood@... [EquineCushings]" wrote: So my gelding's leptin came back 8.32 ng/mL (norm 1-4). He's the 7yo Saddlebred with inexplicable nervous behavior that has been on gabapentin since April, 2014. He recently came up with two high insulins, the latest being 47 uIU/mL. Initially the thought was that perhaps gabapentin was driving the insulin up but with a leptin like that....yeesh! Has anyone ever seen a leptin that high? Cornell only indicates that >7 ng/ml is "high". You guys have more experience than anyone else I know with leptin, so should I believe a leptin this high or throw it out and re-submit a new sample? In denial of EMS for horse #2, Kerry in NY Sept 2014
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