Date   

Re: Newbie questions

gypsylassie
 

Just one more thought.  When I was first looking for a source for the ODTBCs I called Aurelio at Ontario Dehy and asked him about availability in Northern Illinois.  One of his suggestions was actually a horse trainer with a boarding barn who got large shipments of several different  types of cubes.  It was a long drive, but was a fair price.  I now drive about 1 hr. to get them a little closer.  I let them know when I'll be needing them and they'll combine it with other shipments.  Of course the shipping all the way out to your area will be more, but Aurelio might have a couple of other suggestions for you to try.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re files acth testing and sending to cornell

lj friedman
 

I have looked at both these files in prep for testing.. ACTH testing is from 2006 and sending to cornell is 2005. I dont like to rely on outdated info. can these 2 fiiles be updated? lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: Newbie questions

lj friedman
 

can you send me the report for the mtn sunrise timothy pellets. I dont currently put in lysine/minerals unless the farriers formula has it?  ( I need to check their label) thanks lj friedman san diego 2014.


Re: Newbie questions

 

I just finished balancing the analysis from Mountain Sunrise Timothy Pellets. The daily "dose" of lysine, minerals, flax, vitamin E would run about $1.15/day. The pellets cost about $0.40/lb x 20 lbs/day = $8.00 + $1.15 = $9.15/day total.

The ODTB cubes would cost $0.64/lb x 20 lbs/day = $12.80. You would need to add flax and vitamin E for about $0.40/day = $13.20/day total unless you can source your flax seed locally at a better price. 

Of course, everything depends on accurate costs, the balance of the pellets, the upfront costs of minerals, scales, whether you make your own mix (double the amount above if you have a mix custom made), etc., etc.

For my money I would go with the cubes. Less hassle, less variability.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director, ECIR Inc.
Missouri - USA - Dec 2005


Re: Newbie questions

lj friedman
 

Thanks for the reply. I priced out a pallet and they don't offer a discount because they said they make very little money on the product.

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Newbie questions

gypsylassie
 

Thanks Lavinia.  So far so good.  


Re: Newbie questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi LJ,

Alfalfa usually has a relatively low total sugar+starch but the starch fraction is much higher than other hays and starch is converted 100% into glucose while the sugars only convert 50% into glucose. Alfalfa is generally very high in protein and calcium. Excess protein is not a bonus. To balance the calcium you will need to add a LOT of phosphorus - the most yucky tasting of all the minerals. Plus you will need to analyze the hay to find out how much copper, zinc, magnesium, manganese may be needed to actually balance the minerals properly. Anything you feed will require flax, salt and vit E as those are missing unless pasture is a large part of the diet.

The Mountain Sunrise pellets are an unknown as far as mineral content and s/s levels, although they are generally OK for s/s. Also would require added minerals and testing to know what they have/don't have.

ODTBC has everything already tested and all minerals added except flax, salt and vit E so you don't spend any extra money on testing, minerals. All horses benefit from having their diet correctly mineral balanced but those who are under extra stress/challenges have an even greater need to have their nutrition support them fully.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Re: Newbie questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Laura,

Healing thoughts and prayers to your husband, hugs to you. Hope everything turns out OK.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>
I don't have time to get into the nutrition with you, still dealing with a very unwell husband ( 11 hrs in surgery today)


Re: Newbie questions

gypsylassie
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

 I need to choose between either the oDTP cubes which cost $32 with tax for 50 pounds or the mountain sunrise Timothy pellets which cost$20 for 50 pounds.when I crunch the numbers based on what I'll be feeding it is $112.50 more expensive to feed the cubes.each month vs the pellet


Hi LJ,
I don't have time to get into the nutrition with you, still dealing with a very unwell husband ( 11 hrs in surgery today), but one thought on the ODTBCs.  If you can store them properly, the cubes last a good long time, just like properly stored baled hay.  Perhaps if you take a whole pallet you can get a better price.  That's what I do and stored on the wood floor in the haymow they keep very well.  It's a big chunk of $$, but better value in the end.  I can just get a pallet load in my pick up truck with a topper on it.  
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Newbie questions

lj friedman
 

Remember I'm new to this so don't take my ignorance as a reflection of the group. Im a slow learner My first question concerns alfalfa hay which I remember being one of the lowest Hayes in sugar starch. If a horse could eat alfalfa hay and do well on it, wouldn't that be a fine thing where no special feeds are necessary? Next question, assuming that alfalfa hey is not a good choice, I need to choose between either the oDTP cubes which cost $32 with tax for 50 pounds or the mountain sunrise Timothy pellets which cost$20 for 50 pounds.when I crunch the numbers based on what I'll be feeding it is $112.50 more expensive to feed the cubes.each month vs the pellets I know the cubes have things that the pellets don't have.but because I've learned things on the group I have a non-Cushing's horse that I am now feedingtriple Crown omega flax, farriers formula, vitamin EE. So when I do my calculations and I use the cost of the pellets in my calculations, I don't include the cost of the carriers farriers formula or the Omega flex or the vitamin EE because I'm giving it to my non-Cushing horse and even though they do have a cost I don't care about the cost because I'm using these products anyway. Whether. .so with that being said if I had to choose between the pellets with the supplements that I am adding or the cubes that cost me one 125.00 more per month, what am I missing with the pellets and the supplements i include Vs , what the cubes offer with no supplements being added . LJ Friedman San Diego November 2014

Sent from my iPhone


Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Erin,

Ivermectin won't target the encysted strongyles directly. It kills the egg laying adults. Then some of the encysted strongyles, if there are any, will emerge to take their place. Dose again to eliminate this 2nd batch. Then do the cycle again to catch any stragglers.

FEC doesn't test for encysted strongyles. Are your three turned out together? If so, need to deworm all of them on the same schedule/time so they don't pass things off one to the other.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

Lorna Cane
 

In Message 182434,Dr. Kellon says,"For encysted Strongyles, use either Quest or regular dose ivermectin for 3 treatments, three weeks apart. "


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc





Re: Testing

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Heather - You are correct: ACTH, insulin, leptin and glucose.  ACTH pulled into a purple-topped tube; others into serum separator tubes. All spun within 4 hours, separated, frozen overnight then sent to Cornell.  You are also correct in that it is non-fasting; have hay in front of them up until the blood test; and test 4 hours after the first meal of the day.  If they have free-choice hay all night, then no need to wait the 4 hours. 

Let us know how it turns out :)

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <hleonard.bci@...> wrote :

Hi,


Recently, I had some body work done on my horse and it was suggested that I evaluate her for Cushings. ....


Heather 

Mass

2000



ivermectin for encysted strongyles?

chf1752@...
 

My girls are due for their annual treatment for encysted strongyles. I was a bit surprised to see ivermectin recommend as a treatment, since I've only seen moxidectin or fenbendazole recommended. I see there's some concern about the fenbendazole causing ulceration to the colon, which is something I definitely want to avoid. But 2 of my horses are minis, so Quest isn't an option for them.


Where is the evidence that Ivermectin is actually effective in targeting encysted strongyles?


I've read through the 2013 deworming guidelines, but I didn't see any links to proof of ivermectin's efficacy for this purpose.


Bella received a dose of Quest in June. Does that mean she's covered for the year for encysted strongyles? Before Quest her FEC was 80 strongyles.  After Quest her FEC was 1 strongyle.


Erin

ME

2014



Re: Prascend

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Janna - Evitex (chaste tree berry or Vitex agnus-castus extract) will certainly help with some of the symptoms of PPID, especially shedding issues.  However, it does not appear to control the production of ACTH and some other hormones involved.  Most horses that are started on Evitex end up being put on pergolide to control PPID.  Pergolide is still the only medication that can help replace the action of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Anecdotal evidence is showing that control of PPID in earlier stages helps slow or even stop the excessive growth in the pituitary that is responsible for the high output of hormones occurring in PPID.

There is a good explanation here: 

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/physiology-of-ppid-cushing-s-disease

 



Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <tjburdett2@...> wrote :

I see you have started your mare on Evitex.  What is your thoughts of the product
--

Janna Burdett


Re: Prascend

Janna Burdett <tjburdett2@...>
 

I see you have started your mare on Evitex.  What is your thoughts of the product

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:53 PM, muriel318@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

I have a 23 year old female lipazzaner.  She was diagnosed with Cushings this past spring.  Vet prescribed prascend 1/2 tablet once a day.  She never went off her feed but she had terrible side effects.  Lethagic, depression,

SEVERE muscular/skeleton pain (yes, the package insert did mention that about 4 horses out of 122 had muscular skeletal pain).  She could barely move.  Kept her on the medication for 20 some days and the side effects just got worse as time went on.  Tried to explain what happened to the vet but was told they had never heard of such a thing and said to keep her on it!  I didn't because she was miserable.  3 days after she was off this drug, she was her old self.  The only problem she had at this time was that she had not shed out all her winter coat.  Started her on a product called Full Stride by Pureform for cushing horses that has high amounts of chromium etc.  She shed out the rest of winter coat and looked beautiful.  Fall came and she got laminitis for the first time.  My fault for not understanding hormone issues and sugar increasing in the grass in fall.  Anyway, had the same vet group come but a different vet.  Was reprimanded for taking her off prescend. Did not believe side effects she had earler in spring.  They insisted I try it again but start at 1/4 tablet a day graduallly increasing it to the 1/2 tablet.  "Emma" just kept getting worse.  To make a long story short, she started swaying from one front foot to the other tapping the tip of her hoof on the ground.  All day long she swayed and tapped.  She could not turn in her stall.  Was told to increase Prescend to 1/2 tablet.  Had been on 1/4 tablet for over 4 weeks, 3 days after increasing, she would not move.  Stood in the same spot in her stall going on 4 days.  Could hardly walk, could not turn and was practically falling on us.  Was talking to vet this entire time.  Was ready to put her down but because of the spring experience with prascend decided to wean her off and see what happened.  10 days later, she could walk and turn again and stopped the toe tapping and swaying!!  I contacted a more holistic vet and have her on cyproheptadine and evitex, previcox, full stride, a probiotic (KLPP), ocotea oil, traumeel.  This ordeal started Sept. 20th.  Today, 12/04/14, I let her out in a larger paddock for the first time.  She trotted a little and moved better than ever!  Please be aware that any drug can have side effects. Horses, just like people are unique. What might work for one may not work for another.  This experience was very upsetting because of the failure of the vets to recognize my horse could not tolerate this drug and needed something else.  I will contact the company because this was not a pergolide veil that was going to pass.  I just wanted to get this out there in case someone else has a similar experience.  Do not put your horse down until you take them off and see if they will get better with a different plan.  Thanks.  




--
Janna Burdett
770-971-4327 (home)
404-863-5652 (cell)


Re: leptin interpretation -- how high can you go?

Elva J Mico
 

On 12/11/2014 4:10 AM, kerry.isherwood@yahoo.com [EquineCushings] wrote:
Thank you so much, ladies, for your swift assurances that my gelding
is indeed not the outlier of leptin resistance that I fretted over.
He is, in fact, in good company it seems! :)

I find it very interesting that my 20yo mare--the quintessential IR
model whose fat pads have their own fat pads--had a leptin of only
4.19 at her highest, while my svelte gelding, who has many times been
mistaken for a Thoroughbred, is in perfect body condition w/o a trace
of any visible fat on him, yet has a leptin of >8.
My Tennessee Walker, Whiskey, has a leptin reading of 16.....I have not yet figured out how to lower it.

Elva and Angel Satin
2004/NM


Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Lorna Cane
 


Now here's the Database link:


http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4



>And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. 

It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Lorna Cane
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon,


> We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose  


categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on 


compounded drugs.  Also, some of the high doses horses are on 


compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost 


was prohibitive otherwise.




And thanks to everyone who has contributed, and who continues to contribute, to our Database. 

It is such valuable information, and allows us to be the best advocates for our horses.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <jenmcgeehan@...> wrote :

I went on line and it indicated that Cyproheptadine (Periactin) doesn't seem to be anywhere near as effective compared to Pergolide. But I didn't see anything in regards to the combination.

= = = = = = = = = =

You didn't see anything because there is nothing there!  The suggestion came from the BI sponsored Endocrinology Group but with no formal data at all to support it.


The objection to dosages over 5 mg also comes from BI, but again with no data.  They make two general claims.


One is that horses on over 5 mg/day have more side effects but we have 51 (out of 268) horses, 19%, in the pergolide database, most for several years, with no higher reports of side effects or suspicious health problems.


The other claim is that horses that need high doses must be on low potency compounded drug.  We have roughly twice as many horses on Prascend in the low dose  categories (22% vs 10%) but 215 out of the total 268 horses are on compounded drugs.  Also, some of the high doses horses are on compounded after switching from Prascend (or Permax) because the cost was prohibitive otherwise.


If you read Prascend's New Animal Drug Application presented to the FDA


http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalV.../UCM280354.pdf


There is only formal safety data (i.e. including a control group) for dosages up to 2 mg. The adverse event reporting, which included 113 horses with no controls, only their baseline history, also only evaluated up to a 2 mg dose despite the fact that 41.6% of horses remained with abnormal lab values after 90 days on 1 mg/day and overall success rate at 180 days including horses on both 1 and 2 mg/day was 68.6%.


The suggested upper "safe" dose of 5 mg/day (it was 3 mg/day when Prascend was first introduced in the USA) is based entirely upon that being highest reported dose found in the published literature (literally just a handful of horses)- NOT on formal safety studies. It would be more accurate to state that safety of dosages above 5 (or 3) mg has not been studied.


As for the cypro, it is an old treatment with limited usefulness that was discarded long ago in favor of pergolide.  Again, there is nothing to support the idea that the combination would be more effective than pergolide alone.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001


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