Date   

Re: Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

Nancy C
 

Hi Kendra

Good work. What a cutie he is.

Talk about veil first.....it depends on what you mean by "off his feed a bit".  From your CH  it sounds like he was ravenous.  Are you weighing his food?  If you can gauge how much he's eating now vs his weight, you  may find he's okay. The veil usually happens right away.

Since he's 15, he was normal in 2013 and you did not test prior to this trial, you've got a few things to consider. Was this just seasonal rise? A result of his other lameness issues? 

If you want to see where he is right now in December on 0.05 mg of pergolide, test at day 60 s you planned.

He's not on a lot of pergolide.  He may not need the pergolide year round.  If he's doing well, all things being equal, you might wait until full blown spring (ie, May) and have him tested then. Want to keep a good track of symptoms on a regular basis and if there are any foot issues AT ALL put him right back on the pergolide.

More info here:

Pergolide

 



As for spring rise......it comes about Feb/Mar and affects mares (mostly) and their IR control.  More about mares in the Proceedings. See link under my signature

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <jaggirl47@...> wrote :


He is doing very well on the Prascend. He is no longer sore in his feet and his appetite has gone way down. He no longer freaks out when it is time to eat. I never realized just how ravenous he actually was until now. He has gone off his feed a bit. Could this be a delayed pergolide veil or could it just be that his body is now finally becoming normal?



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Kendra-Washington/

 


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

As with most things about horse looking at the color or coat may not tell you the whole story.  While it may seem simple on paper there are issues that may be helped by tighter balancing. Magnesium is huge for IR as is Zinc. For those interested in learning more please see NO Laminitis proceeding (link below)

ECIR 2013 Proceedings Kellon Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance


If you are a grad of Dr Kellon's NRC plus course, you can get help or a review or tweaking from the NRC Plus Grads Group on Yahoo. NRC Plus are the guidelines for balancing that we follow in this group.  They are much tighter than any other source. You'd have to figure out how to share what you have already done.  There's also great stuff in the files there.

I get my jherb form herbalcom. I've found watching for the pink gums is the real story. Because syringing in is better than in food, using the whole herb was not preferable for me. 

Recommend taking a close look at the other herbs you are giving as outlined in your CH.  As Eva pointed out they may not be helping and could save you a few dollars.

Many members test only once or twice a year, once they understand how the cycles run for these horses and can gauge how their horses are doing by symptoms. 

It may feel like we're just nit-picking but our mission is to help pull apart the confounding factors and give you the best advice possible.  This is the internet. We're not there on the ground with you.   You presented concerns about issues. We give you the best response possible based on your facts as presented.

At any time there are at minimum a couple 100 members reading these posts. For everyone struggling here's a great thought from Dr Kellon:

"Hope is not gone until you choose to abandon it."

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 







Quite honestly, between the pergolide, blankets, testing, supplements, etc its looking more and more like keeping Bella around isn't financially sustainable in the long run. If she's going to need to have insulin, glucose and ACTH run several times a year and more and more pergolide then I'm going to have to make a very hard decision at some point. The plan now is to wait and see in the spring. If things keep deteriorating, then I'm not going to have much choice. 

Erin
ME
2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

chf1752@...
 

Hi Nancy,

I ordered jiaogulan from HerbalCom. The bag says Jiaogulan (Gynostemma pentaphyllum) powder, and its a taupe colored powder with a strong, foul herbal smell. I used to use Chinese herbs myself, and I found that most Chinese herbs have a very foul smell/taste to them. 

I'm not terribly happy with the herbs I ordered from HerbalCom, since the quality isn't as good as some of the other places I've ordered from. Either the smell of the herb is weaker than what I've gotten elsewhere, or it has a bit of a chemical smell to it. 

It looks like Mountain Rose Herbs has whole jiaogulan (search for gynostemma). Its a bit more expensive, but what I've gotten from them before is really high quality. 

I do my mineral balancing on paper, so it wouldn't be easy for someone to look at it. It also seems really silly for me to pay someone to balance minerals for me when the math is so simple. 

Is there any info in the files on what else to look for when mineral balancing? Or any posts with relevant info?

All 3 of my horses (the metabolic old one and the 2 young healthy ones) seem to be telling me I have things right in terms of Zn and Cu. They're black, and their coats are dark and shiny with no more white hairs. No thrush either, even though the environment tends to be pretty wet here.

50lbs of Copper Sulfate cost me $70. The same amount of PolyCu would cost $349.75 (HorseTech). A 55lb bag of ZinPro costs $113.97, since I have to mail order it. The same amount of PolyZn would cost over $335.70 (HorseTech).  I'm aware that the ZinPro and PolyCu are more absorbable. Since the ZinPro and copper sulfate are working, cost less and I have them on hand (and probably have a lifetime supply of the copper) then I'm going to stick with that. 

Quite honestly, between the pergolide, blankets, testing, supplements, etc its looking more and more like keeping Bella around isn't financially sustainable in the long run. If she's going to need to have insulin, glucose and ACTH run several times a year and more and more pergolide then I'm going to have to make a very hard decision at some point. The plan now is to wait and see in the spring. If things keep deteriorating, then I'm not going to have much choice. 

Erin
ME
2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/


Re: Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

Kerry Isherwood
 

Wait a sec....there's a Spring rise i have to worry about too? I just finally got to exhale after getting thru the Fall one!!

Are there two seasonal rises to worry about with PPID per year? I'm a PPID newbie (since Oct 2014). My mare is(was) also severely IR and has consistently fallen apart each year starting mid-July. Her insulin & blood glucose are well-controlled now on pergolide. I figured I'd be pretty safe until July rolls around again but do I need to keep checking her insulin/BGs/ACTH thru the Spring months too?

Sorry to hi-jack the post. If anyone responds please feel free to re-title this thread.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

Kendra
 

So, Opie is on day 51 of his Prascend trial and is doing very well. This is the link to his photo album. It has pics from day 1, day 15, and day 49 for comparison. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/photos/albums/940080568


I do need to have a current test done on him. Is it best to wait until the beginning of the spring rise? If yes, what is the best time and should I take him off the Prascend prior to testing? His last test was normal but was not done during a seasonal rise.


He is doing very well on the Prascend. He is no longer sore in his feet and his appetite has gone way down. He no longer freaks out when it is time to eat. I never realized just how ravenous he actually was until now. He has gone off his feed a bit. Could this be a delayed pergolide veil or could it just be that his body is now finally becoming normal?


Thank you in advance.


Kendra and Opie

Washington

7/2013

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Kendra-Washington/

 


Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

Lorna Cane
 


>And I need a 3 foot wide food bin to catch all that she drops!

For my toothless boy,I used a 4 - foot long X 2-foot wide bin,in which sat 2 large rubbermaid muck buckets (or laundry bins,or whatever you call them).One tub was used for his mush,and the other for his ODTBC.
He was always swinging his head from side to side to see what was going on as he was working on a mouthful of 'stuff', dropping it wherever.

I just kept adjusting the situation to fit his mood.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

gypsylassie
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


It's a Goldilocks thing - ODTB too wet, too dry, not fluffy enough.
And I need a 3 foot wide food bin to catch all that she drops!

Hi Beverly,  When the texture is "right" does she pick up what she's dropped?  You could try putting her feed tub on a rubber stall mat to keep the dropped food from mixing in with the ground or stall floor.  If you can get Stabul 1, you could add some to the "mash" so it's easy to eat and the taste might encourage her to keep working at it.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

Nancy C
 

You could try a stock tank.  Thisone hs lower sides.  You might find a higher sided one works better.

And yes...it takes adjustment.

Rubbermaid® Structural Foam Stock Tanks, 50 gal. Capacity - Tractor Supply Co.

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Thanks Nancy and others who wrote.
It's a Goldilocks thing - ODTB too wet, too dry, not fluffy enough.


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

Hi Erin

I was just mixing four days of jherb and olive oil syringes and want to add to Eva's terrific post.

If I were in the barn with you and you mentioned not liking teh smell of jherb, I'd be checking to make sure what you have is jherb.  It's probably nothing but we want to make sure we've checked all the boxes.  With the other stuff you are feeding (ie turmeric) not sure why jherb is a problem.  No need to respond.  Just double check it.

Heartily agree you need to have your balancing double checked if you haven't already.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings


********************

 

We always do ACTH, glucose and insulin whenever we do bloodwork to assess if the pergolide dose is adequate.  My observation is that the horses on this list that do the best over time have their ACTH kept under control, and you only know that by testing.  Bella might need more pergolide.  Despite doing all we could with diet and exercise, we found that we needed more pergolide to get the G:I ratio into normal range.

 

Eva

SW Ontario, Canada.   March 2005




 

We always do ACTH, glucose and insulin whenever we do bloodwork to assess if the pergolide dose is adequate.  My observation is that the horses on this list that do the best over time have their ACTH kept under control, and you only know that by testing.  Bella might need more pergolide.  Despite doing all we could with diet and exercise, we found that we needed more pergolide to get the G:I ratio into normal range.

 

Eva

SW Ontario, Canada.   March 2005



Re: Smoke - Grass hay vs Timothy

Sara Gooch
 

Jen,


Just a thought here from another IR/PPID horse owner:

 With the swelling "down the back between the knee and hoof" maybe there's a possibility that the pain is from his recent trim lowering the heels more than normal? Even if it's just one leg/foot, maybe lowered heels stretched/stressed those tendons and ligaments from the knee  on down to the hoof?  I've found that with my older horses especially, ANY changes in hoof angle have to be made VERY gradually or it drastically affects their movement. And I've had  picture-perfect, gorgeous looking trims be absolutely not-right for my old guys. But,  maybe by now  you've confirmed that it's an abscess. 

Good luck and best wishes,

Sara, 2011, NE California

      


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

gentpony
 

<G:I ratio is 2.97.  Is there anything else I can do to decrease her risk of laminitis?

 

Hi Erin,

 

A few thoughts about  Bella’s IR:

Since you are using ZinPro as your source of zinc, Bella may not be getting the full benefit of zinc supplementation. PolyCopper is also recommended over copper sulfate for solubility reasons.  These might be factors for high insulin, since Dr Kellon’s ECIR method of mineral balancing does help control IR. (Uckele sent out an email this morning that there is 10% off orders today (Dec 18-2014) only.)  Since Bella is still having problems, for the sake of $25, I’d be getting the poly minerals.

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/139906

Dr Kellon:  “The poly minerals are inorganics (sulfates) wrapped with a polysaccharide coating. They are liberated close to the intestinal lining by digestion of their coating. This helps protect minerals like copper which are poorly soluble in the small intestine. I prefer Poly Zn for people mixing their own minerals because it's easier to measure accurately, but otherwise use zinc sulfate.

     … chelates are not distributed evenly throughout the body. They end up in higher concentrations in tissues that have high levels of whichever amino acid they are chelated to. Also, one big reason for balancing in the first place is to give all minerals a chance for absorption that is in proportion to their required levels. If you use chelated minerals, that effect is lost.”

 

Since you have said you’ve balanced the hay yourself, strongly suggest having someone who has more experience with this check your calculations.  There is more to balancing hay than only adjusting the mineral ratios.  NRC requirements must be met, and at the same time health status must be considered.  Agree with adjusting the magnesium as suggested.

 

Also keep in mind that cold (less than 40-45F) can also increase insulin (but do not discount the importance of a correctly mineral balanced diet): 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/87589

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/135891

 

You might also research if the herbs (nettle, cats claw, milk thistle) you are feeding have any effect on glucose, insulin or insulin resistance.

 

Also, daily walks (20 min. minimum) when she is able, helps IR.  Recommended BCS is around 5.  Bella is at BCS 6-7, so still has some weight to lose that is contributing to her IR.

 

The change in Bella’s personality from sweet to crabby might be due to not feeling well from winter laminitis.   When footsore, they can develop sore muscles due to less movement and trying to hold themselves differently due to pain.  Massages with liniment, followed by covering with a warmed blanket have been helpful for us.

 

We always do ACTH, glucose and insulin whenever we do bloodwork to assess if the pergolide dose is adequate.  My observation is that the horses on this list that do the best over time have their ACTH kept under control, and you only know that by testing.  Bella might need more pergolide.  Despite doing all we could with diet and exercise, we found that we needed more pergolide to get the G:I ratio into normal range.

 

Eva

SW Ontario, Canada.   March 2005



Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Nancy and others who wrote.
It's a Goldilocks thing - ODTB too wet, too dry, not fluffy enough.
And I need a 3 foot wide food bin to catch all that she drops!
Happy Holidays to all,
Beverly 6/14


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: jiaogulan, AAKG and ALCAR

Nancy C
 

Hi Erin

Not unheard of but most horses do not get nasty on jherb. You could try to bring her up to 3/4 of a tsp 2Xs a day. If this is in her food it will be less effective than syringing in. Do not give the aakg without the jherb.

Frog sensitivity can also be from plain old ground changes. Our recent weather of rain, thaw, freeze, ice may be contributing.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/nhttp://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings


---In EquineCushings@..., <chf1752@...> wrote :


Erin

ME

2014

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/




Re: My two Cushings Horses and Itchiing

Nancy C
 

Hi Addie

Welcome!

Cushing's horses are more susceptible to issues like you describe. First you want to make sure their doses are correct. Would love to hear more about how your 10 year old was diagnosed.

You need to break the cycle of itching and scratching. Many times vets will use steriods to do this.  Not good.

Many of us have used a protocol recommended by Dr Kellon to gently ash the area with a very gentle soap.  Excalibur is often used. Next use a topical of Bactine or Zim's crack cream.  If this is bug related, create a barrier by with Noxema to keep the bugs off.

The second really big component is making sure the diet is optimized.  Can you tell us more about your guys?  Would love you to fill out a case history and we can then help you walk through changes that will help them. You need to join ECHistory8 just like you joined this list. Then fill out and upload a form.  It really, really helps your dedicated volunteers.

ECHistory8

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/nhttp://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings


---In EquineCushings@..., <ahorn555@...> wrote :

I have two geldings one 20 and one 10  Both are Cushing horses and have been on Pergolide since May of 2014.  


Re: Smoke - Grass hay vs Timothy

Nancy C
 

Hi Jen

Glad to hear insulin is still good!

Only way to know about the hay is to test it.

I would not use bute for abscess.  I know how  hard it is to watch but teh bute will work against you to mobilize the abscess.  Jiaogulan is a better choice for foot comfort and will help mobilize things.  I know you will keep an eye on that swelling down the back of the leg.

As to pergolide, we are in the down swing of seasonal rise so need to weigh that. Since he has foundered before, if he still has PPID symptoms, I might raise the amount by 0.05 mg and monitor.  Make sure you keep your vet in the loop. Testing ACTH is the best way to tell where you are.  (I bet you know this!) 

Here's a couple of good links for monitoring  symptoms:

Seasonal Rise When to Test ACTH Message by Eleanor

https://groups.yahoo.com/ neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/132334

Increase Pergolide Message (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti

https:// groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988

Jen, if you would pretty please link to your updated case history it will help us help you more efficiently.

Thanks a million!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/nhttp://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings

---In EquineCushings@..., <jenmcgeehan@...> wrote :

 I know abscesses are more common in the winter. Sorry for doing the spaghetti thing. I am starting him on 2 grams of Bute twice daily, soaking in ice water, etc. Only swelling is down the back between the knee and hoof. No heat on the foot. No sign yet of a blowout...but watching it.


jiaogulan, AAKG and ALCAR

chf1752@...
 

I posted recently about Bella's personality changes. From sweet and curious to biting at me and running away. I couldn't catch her at all yesterday, so she just got her ODTBC, minerals and pergolide. No jiaogulan. Today, she was her usual sweet self, even a bit playful. But I saw a little of the frog sensitivity that the jiaogulan took away. 


I had to work her up to 1 tsp twice a day of jiaogulan gradually. While she's more comfortable on that dose, her crazy/nasty side has come out on it.


She was her usual sweet self when she was getting 1/2 tsp twice a day of jiaogulan (half what she's getting now). But she was a little uncomfy on her feet still.


Can too much jiaogulan make a horse crazy/nasty?


Could I got back to the jiaogulan at 1/2 tsp twice a day, and add in the AAKG and/or ALCAR?


Could I use just the AAKG and ALCAR, and skip the jiaogulan? 

While the jiaogulan has helped her, I really can't stand the smell of it. So if I could get away from the jiaogulan and keep Bella happy and comfy, that'd be nice.


Erin

ME

2014

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/




My two Cushings Horses and Itchiing

ahorn555@...
 

I have two geldings one 20 and one 10  Both are Cushing horses and have been on Pergolide since May of 2014.   They both now in this winter, in NM,  and in the last month have itching face issues.  To the point one has rubbed all hair off one side of his face,  and the other is scratching his face on something so hard he is pulling the hair off and causing cuts.  Has anyone experienced this??  I treat them with Entederm topical on their cut,  and use Shapely's MTG,  but it hasn't stopped?    My name is Addie And I live in Edgewood, New Mexico.


Smoke - Grass hay vs Timothy

Jen Mcgeehan
 

Aloha Again from Hawaii!

Smoke, age 32 and survivor of coffin bone rotation at 29, IR/cushings, has been doing very well for the past few years. Since moving to Hawaii, he has had one abscess. I was forced to switch from Timothy to grass hay about 2 months when my vet floated his teeth, creating an opening at the back that made my horse decide to chew his hay, then open his mouth and let it fall out. I guess he had a broken tooth back there and when she gently floated the tooth below, the gap was more...So, I switched to grass hay because of less stem. I have been told that it is safe for IR horses. And, he is able to eat it. A blood test was done on 11.7.14 and his numbers came back with an insulin:glucose ration of 11 from the vet, but when I ran the numbers it was 12.9, still very good!  (Glucose 81/Insulin 6.7) But, his ACTH is way too high at 51, up from a respectable 29.6 in May of 2013. Am going to up his pergolide...Any suggestions as to how much to increase? Currently on 5mg. (Been on 5 mg for a good 2 years!) The problem now is I think he has an abscess. Does anyone have an opinion on the Grass Hay? I know abscesses are more common in the winter. Sorry for doing the spaghetti thing. I am starting him on 2 grams of Bute twice daily, soaking in ice water, etc. Only swelling is down the back between the knee and hoof. No heat on the foot. No sign yet of a blowout...but watching it. Had just been rasped, heals are down, gorgeous hoof thanks to my amazing barefoot farrier, Susanella! Any input that might help me? Mahalo 

Jen and Smoke

Members since 2011 


Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Jen Mcgeehan
 

Thanks so much! wow, some on 36 mg of Pergolide? 


Re: Adding Cyproheptadine to Pergolide prescription

Jen Mcgeehan
 

Thanks so much for this information!!! I have copied it and will forward on to my vet and farrier. The vet is respectful of my position but is still a bit on the "old school" side of things.


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