Date   

Re: new batch ODTB cubes won't soften

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Beverly -
Have you tried soaking in warm water? I soak mine (cover them just barely) in warm water for no less than an hour and have no problems.
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May 2014

---- "bmeyer@... [EquineCushings]"wrote:

My toothless pony Ginger is on 9 pounds/day ODTB as her total food.
Recently, the cubes will NOT fluff. About 1/3 leave a hard dry core.
I cover with water, soak half an hour, attack vigorously with a heavy spoon, then spend 10 minutes per each of 3 meals prying them apart by hand and resoaking the super hard parts.
Has anybody else seen this?
Her dentist says her mouth is fine, just toothless.
I cannot switch to Stabul 1 as I have Celiac and cannot breathe wheat mids dust.
Open to ideas and advice. Thank you all so very much and Happy Holidays!
Beverly 6/14


new batch ODTB cubes won't soften

beverly meyer
 

My toothless pony Ginger is on 9 pounds/day ODTB as her total food.  

Recently, the cubes will NOT fluff.  About 1/3 leave a hard dry core.  

I cover with water, soak half an hour, attack vigorously with a heavy spoon, then spend 10 minutes per each of 3 meals prying them apart by hand and resoaking the super hard parts.  

Has anybody else seen this? 

Her dentist says her mouth is fine, just toothless.

I cannot switch to Stabul 1 as I have Celiac and cannot breathe wheat mids dust.

Open to ideas and advice. Thank you all so very much and Happy Holidays!

Beverly 6/14


Re: My two Cushings Horses and Itchiing

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Addie,
Well you have a plate full with two horses  new to PPID/IR.    Now its time to get down to business and get it all figured out for you.   Their itching could be related to DIET as well.  Specifically unbalanced minerals.   But first ECH8.
 
We need you to join ECH8 and fill out a case history on both horses so we can see what they are eating and what needs to be changed.   Here is a link and I will also send you an invite to join.   It takes a while to fill out the questionnaire because of the detail required ~ very much like a human doctor would require of a new patient.   The answer is in the details.
 
 
 
 
The philosophy here is DDT/E.  I know you’ve read that.   DIAGNOSIS is the first D.  Which tests and what lab did the work for you?  We highly recommend Cornell in NY do our bloodwork.  Your vet would have to open an account there first.   We have found Cornell to be the most reliable from the other labs.   The tests we recommend are the eACTH to confirm Cushings aka PPID.   INsulin/Glucose and Leptin on a NON FASTING horse will confirm IR and even how severe it is.  Schedule these tests early in the week so the frozen plasma can get to Cornell before their lab closes.   There is a file regarding over night air, prices and prepaid shipping labels.   The treatment for Cushings is pergolide.  The treatment for IR is DIET. 
 
Did you ever use the Temporary Emergency Diet?   IT is in the Start Here file.  It is also the base of the DIET we want you to build for your two.  The add minerals for the ER Diet are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium and freshly ground flax.  You can get these at Walmart or any major drug store.  The recipe is in the file.  We would suggest no grazing until you know what you are dealing with.   Untested hay can be soaked/drained for one hour in cold water. Pour the dirty water where they cant get to it.   Feed at least 4 small meals a day spread out as much as you can, (24 hours divided by 4= 8 hours apart)  Small mesh poly hay nets help too because itslows down their eating.  Jeffers horse catalog has some one inch smhn’s by Shires that work well....well once the horse accepts the challenge!
Have a read at www.dairyone.com   This is where we send out hay samples to find out exactly what we are feeding them.   Borrow a corer,   test 20% of your hay, stir the samples really well and send a quart of dry hay to www.equi-analytical.com   getting the Trainer # 603 .  The the volunteers who specialize in balancing minerals can see what you need to add to correct imbalances.  Many times skin issues correct doing this.   I have a pony that came in with hard stiff hair and butt muscles like granite.   He  now has soft fine hair and a nice topline!   Pretty good for a near 30 yo with PPID/IR.  He’s on compounded pergolide too. 
 
You asked if syringing the powder pergolide in ruins the drugs.  Well yes if you let it sit around,  but if you have a container of just powdered pergolide you should deliver it via syringe.  I use Aloe Vera Juice as a carrier.  The type of pergolide you’re getting is not the best for shelf life.   Many of us use Pet Health and get the gel caps/powder.   Keep this in the refrigerator door.  Your vet can call in a script  at the dose you need.  Its very affordable and reliable.  Their number is 800-742-0516    or www.pethealthpharmacy.com
 
 
TRIM is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered.  Boots and pads if the horse is sore. 
 
EXERCISE only if he’s able.  Never force or ride a laminitic horse.
 
So  much to do Addie!   Take a deep breath for yourself and jump in.   There are pleanty of people here to help you.   Start a journal and ask questions.   Also,  please send a link to your case history every time you write in.  It helps us find you faster!
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003


Re: My two Cushings Horses and Itchiing

ahorn555@...
 

PS I forgot to say, as soon as they were diagnosed, I took them off alfalfa, they only get grass, timothy or orchard grass now.  The older horse did have a large sarcoid tumor on the inside of his right hind leg, right behind the pupice, it looked like the size of a fist, came up quickly, and the vets ultrasound showed it was way up in him so we had him operated on last may to remove the tumor.  We've had a hard time healing that wound with proud flesh growing, etc.  I think as in humans who are IR, etc. the same is true of wound healing.  


Re: My two Cushings Horses and Itchiing

ahorn555@...
 

Thank you,  yes when I noticed my 19 year old at the time did not shed out his winter coat, and had funny patterns on his neck, I started researching the internet.  I felt his coat looked like Cushings.  I then noticed on my 9 year old at the time had funny coat patterns in his short hair.  I asked the vet to look at them and test him too, and yes they both came back with cushings diagnosed from their acth tests.  The younger horse, Captain was lower in numbers than Max but they both were definitely diagnosed as Cushings.  They are each now on 1/2TSP of pergolide daily, and we just did this month some new tests on them and am awaiting their new numbers.  The bet has been out, he is also a vet for a rescue ranch out here in NM.  He stated he had seen the dermatitis issue and itching on two horses over there, and it came back negative for bacteria, negative for fungus, etc.  I believe the horses have had some type of allergic reaction,  maybe to some vitamin E oil I used when they nick each other while horse playing.  But whatever, it is now a full blown reaction.  He gave them antihistamine shots, and they are now on antihistamine meds three times a day.  We don't want to give a steriod because of the cushings.  Additionally I spot wash them with a medicated shampoo twice a week.  My fear is where their hair has come out, it won't grow back.  They aren't pretty, but loveable right now!  I don't always understand all that I read on this site, but it find it to be very helpful and am learning from it.  I'm also not good at using the internet or these groups.  But thank you for your timely response to me.


Re: Survey of youngest PPID cases:

Nancy C
 

Hi Kerry

With these younger horses, it's often not clear if they are having response to seasonal rise that may be above the so-called norm, or are in full blown PPID diagnosis. Which test  used needs to be considered.  Fasting the hose can also confuse the diagnosis.

Cortisol rhythm test can have 30% false positives. The use of TRH test which is a lot more sensitive in picking up pituitary changes, has it's own complications in young horses. Testing ACTH when well into spring, while not on pergolide, would be ideal. Also ideal is to retest to see his response to seasonal rise in the fall, most especially if you see symptoms.

There have been great discussions about young horses, particularly of late around the use of the TRH test which is advocated in some circles. Here is one long but informative thread.

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 



Also see 2013 Proceeding on Diagnosis at the link below my signature. 
Lots more in the recordings.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <cboriskin@...> wrote :

>> Im curious about the younger cases of PPID<<

My horse was diagnosed at 10, but it took almost a year to figure out he

 


Re: Intermittent Time Between Feedings

Nancy C
 

I worry about stuff like this all the time!

Can only give you my opinion not based on science but on gut reaction. Do the best you can on the days that you can rather than going to only two feedings a day every day.

I'm sure you have thought this through many, many times, Sally. Keep your eye and mind open to ideas that may help you get a longer bang from the slow feeders. I say this only b/c just about the time I figure I have exhausted all possibilities for a particular issue, another one crops up. 

In the end, I truly believe they know or can sense when you are trying as hard as you can for them. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <larks.tabatha@...> wrote :



So... I am asking if it is better to feed them multiple times when I can, which would be only on the days that I have off from my part time job?

Or, is it kinder to their metabolism and mental state to keep them on the same, consistent feeding schedule seven days per week regardless of my schedule?



Re: Survey of youngest PPID cases:

 

>> Im curious about the younger cases of PPID<<

My horse was diagnosed at 10, but it took almost a year to figure out he was PPID because the vet at the time, didn't believe a horse that young would have Cushings. And, I believe he had it before I got him because almost immediately after buying him, he was showing symptoms. I purchased him August 30, 2009 and he was diagnosed in October 2010.

Once diagnosed, he was put on 1 mg compounded pergolide and almost immediately, his symptoms of excessive drinking and urinating quit. He was on 1 mg of compounded pergolide for about 3 years when my new vet wanted to try .5 mg since he was so young. After 6 months of .5, his numbers went up and I increased it to .75mg. During the seasonal rise, he started to show the excessive drinking and urinating again, so I upped it to 1mg and he is doing great. The seasonal rise has past and I am thinking of keeping him on 1mg. I will have him retested in the spring.

BTW, any thoughts on me keeping him on 1mg vs putting him back to .75?

Cynthia Boriskin


 


Re: Bagged chopped forage

gypsylassie
 

Or, to make it easier for Ont. Dehy, maybe just a tag with the analysis on it so we can get our own mixes made up.  Or a place on their website where they could list batch numbers along with the analysis.  
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Survey of youngest PPID cases:

Kerry Isherwood
 

Im curious about the younger cases of PPID, as Im currently working up my 7yo gelding's unexpectedly severe IR & EMS bloodwork (insulin 47, leptin 8.3; I have an ACTH pending)

What symptoms were the "young" PPID horses exhibiting that prompted the diagnostics for PPID? Are these younger PPIDs responding as well and as expectedly to pergolide as the typically older PPID population of horses does? Any unusual stories amongst the younger PPID population, specifically, any unusual behavior or symptoms that abated once treatment was initiated?

Thanks!
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

(Case history for my gelding in progress)


Re: Intermittent Time Between Feedings

Lorna Cane
 


> despite all my efforts to use small hole hay nets 

What size are the holes?
What size are the nets,and how much(weight)can you fit into them?

For me the SMHN were a godsend,not because I am not here but as back/time savers. 
I use hockey nets.In the whole net(made into an envelop-looking net,by lacing the sides together with cord) I can stuff 3 bales (~ 35 pounds each) of hay(remove twine after bales are inserted).Into nets cut down to make stall nets( 1/2 the size) I can still fit a good amount of hay.Maybe 60 pounds?
The holes are 1" - 1 1/2".
This plan kept hay in front of as many as 9 horses.
I'm wondering if there is a way you can fine tune your set up to make life easier for you?

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: soaked ODTB

Dee Kenville
 

Thanks Claudia!
My horses weren't eating the last batch at Westside....but I am off to get
a bale of the new batch right now and see how they eat that...thanks for
the tip!:)
Dee


http://ndeewoods.com/


Re: Intermittent Time Between Feedings

Larks Tabatha
 

Thank you Nancy... despite all my efforts to use small hole hay nets and multiple feed stations, I don't think I can keep food in front of my mare and donkey for 6 to 8 hours at a time.

So... I am asking if it is better to feed them multiple times when I can, which would be only on the days that I have off from my part time job?

Or, is it kinder to their metabolism and mental state to keep them on the same, consistent feeding schedule seven days per week regardless of my schedule?

Does anyone else think about these things???

Merry almost Christmas,
Sally in N. AZ
April 2013


Re: Bagged chopped forage

Chanda
 

This sounds like a fantastic idea.    Sterett Bros had their low carb pellets, and they had a bag of balanced vit/min to go with them, so you added the vit/min at feeding time; at least that's how I understood it to work.  They don't currently have them.

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Laura,

>I would really appreciate it if someone could advise on where her diet is deficient so I can make the necessary adjustments.

Go here in our Files,and scroll down to Help with Mineral Balancing,to contact someone to help you:

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Laura & Hope - 22 yr old TB mare

Laura Cull
 

Hi - I have the hay analysis results along with mineral analysis which have been uploaded. I have updated Hope's case history. She is still on the Equi-Cal because I bought so much of it but I am in the process of switching her over to the ProFibre crunch instead (analysis also uploaded).
I would really appreciate it if someone could advise on where her diet is deficient so I can make the necessary adjustments.
Thank you!

Laura & Hope
Oct 2014
Kelowna, BC, Canada


Bagged chopped forage

gypsylassie
 

I wonder if Ontario Dehy has ever thought about doing a chopped, bagged forage like the Timothy Balance Cubes, only Timothy Balance Chopped?  The balancing minerals probably wouldn't work in a loose, chopped product.  Maybe just a low s/s chopped forage.  For the older tooth challenged horses.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL. 2011


Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

gypsylassie
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


The ODTB often have a hard dry center even when the rest of it fluffs
up. If I add more water sometimes its just a soggy mess (and cold!).


Beverly,  Sometimes the ODTBCs are harder than usual.  I sometimes use a long handled pliers to crack them into pieces to facilitate fluffing.  Also, if your girl is having a hard time with the moistened and fluffed ODTBCs, you could try Stabul 1.  It isn't marketed as a complete feed, but can be used as one with older, toothless horses.  Just another option. fwiw.
Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Now: Understanding Pergolide/Prascend and Compounding

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Heartily second this!!

And leaving the entire post intact intentionally.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support team


---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


LeeAnne!

>As usual, if there is anything wrong in what I've written, please volunteers speak up!  I'm just the file clerk, not one of the you amazing people who answer questions.  

I'm here to say there is plenty wrong with what you have written!

THIS part : "I'm just the file clerk, not one of the you amazing people who answer questions."

Absolutely false .

Point 1 - You are not JUST the File Clerk. You are the most awesome File Clerk there ever was.
Point 2 - You ARE one of the amazing people who answer questions! You just showed that with your  brilliant answer wrt pergolide/Prascend.

I know there are many new members heaving a sigh of relief ,to finally understand that pergolide/Prascend conundrum.

Never mind that most of us are now running for a chocolate fix!

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


 


Re: Now: Understanding Pergolide/Prascend and Compounding

Bonnie
 

Let me add to this: LeeAnne, who referred to herself as "just the file clerk" was the one who talked me through the discovery that my pony needed an unexpectedly high dose of pergolide. Drawing on her own experience with her mare, she helped me organize with material and techniques to double the dose, as per vet's orders, without causing side effects. She even phoned me to check up on things.

That is help above and beyond "file clerking."

Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08

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