Date   

Re: Update on Dixie and Dexter...need help with depressed mule!

Lorna Cane
 


>I have no updated information to add.


I asked because these items mentioned in your post,don't all appear in your CH,for example:


>They receive AZ Copper with a small amount of Purina LS (1/2 cup 2x a day).  They haven't quite acquired a taste for the AZ Copper but get 1/4 cup 2x a day...soon to be increased to 1/2 cup 2x a day. They also get 2 ounces of freshly ground flax seed a day with Vitamin E and D, and 1 TBS of salt 2x a day.


  >  I received my teff hay analysis today and it was high WSC is 12.9, ESC 11.0, and Starch is 2.4.  


The ESC plus Starch numbers are higher than we like to see.Preferable is under 10%.Some of our horses can't tolerate 10% even.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance



Re: Update on Dixie and Dexter...need help with depressed mule!

Jacque White
 

Hello again...I have no updated information to add.  We do not have a local vet that can do blood work at this time. I will be doing blood work in June, hopefully. Just wanted some info on his depression.  Like I explained he is an introvert and not very active. Our weather is cold between 20 degrees and 7 right now. May drop lower in the next few days. Farrier was out last week...feet look good no issues. They have plenty of room to walk or run...I did see him buck and kick out today after rolling.  He just seems either bored or depressed.  I try to spend time with them as much as possible.  Petting,talking and grooming.  He just seems lost... and goes inside of himself.  I have been feeding a few roasted unsalted peanuts to them everyday. Is that okay?  I started giving 2000 mg of vitamin D due to the long dark winters, thinking they need it.  I received my teff hay analysis today and it was high WSC is 12.9, ESC 11.0, and Starch is 2.4.  I have been on the phone with Anderson Hay all morning trying to resolve this problem.  Not sure what to do?? 

Thank you for understanding,

Jacque White


Re: Balancer needed

Lorna Cane
 


>I got this reply from feedxl.. since no balancer can assist..  

There are 16 people on the list to help balance hay.
It is a busy time,but did you contact everyone?

Or do you mean you were waiting for someone to contact you about it,from the message you posted a few days ago?

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 



Bermuda plus pellets from mnt sunrise

lj friedman
 

I called mtn sunrise asking about selenium in their timothy pellets and they told me that they have a product called bermuda plus pellets made for cushings horses.. I assume we know of this product?


Bermuda Plus

ECHistory8



Re: Balancer needed

lj friedman
 

I got this reply from feedxl.. since no balancer can assist..   Does anyone know if tim pellets from mtn sunrise have any selenium?  what are your thoughts on feedxl's recommendations?  I;m not interested in using Horsetech because many of the supplements I use.. are also given to another horse.. so when I make supplememt bags.. I make for 2 horses.. easy.  


 

hards » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:46 am

Yes, all based on the data you submitted but if you look at your analysis and also in FeedXL you will see selenium wasn't analyzed and as such can't be included in the FeedXL analysis. You can have Equi-Analytical test for selenium (they will still have your sample so you don't need to submit it again) for you or you could give me an estimated selenium value to add to the database for the pellets. Because a majority of Jesse's diet is made up of the Timothy pellets his diet is coming out as being very, very low in selenium because at the moment there is no selenium showing in the diet from the pellets.
It is going to be important to know as your other supplements aren't going to contain any appreciable amount of selenium so a deficiency will actually exist if the timothy is from a low selenium area.

Your phosphorus is also going to be a true deficiency as your timothy and beet (most of the diet) are both very low in phosphorus. It is a tricky nutrient to add without adding extra calcium - Jesse's diet is quite high in calcium already so something like dicalcium phosphate may not work for you as it brings in too much calcium with the phosphorus - but try it and see if you can meet phosphorus requirements without getting your calcium to phosphorus ratio too high. You could use monosodium phosphate but it needs to be used with care as it will act as a laxative if you use too much. Not being able to feed any sort of grain makes it very tricky to increase phosphorus. Your main issue is that your timothy pellets are very low in phosphorus (0.17%) - do these pellets always come from the same area/same soils?

You also need to get that B1 level up. It is very important for a whole lot of things. Jesse may still make good amounts in his gut but this diet is quite a long way from meeting the NRCs recommended intake. Lots of options for B1 supplements in the Blue supplements tab under 'B-vitamin and calming supplements'.

Hope that helps, it is not going to be easy to balance Jesse's diet with his diet restrictions as well as the ingredients you have available.

lj friedman san diego 2014
 
 ECHistory8

 

 


Re: Update on Dixie and Dexter...need help with depressed mule!

Lorna Cane
 



>  He is an introvert and very skeptical.  Is there anything I could do to bring him out of his depression??


Hi Jacque,


I have done a search and have found the case history link for Dixie and Dexter.


Please add it to your signature when you post any messages.

Can you go there and update Dexter's case for us,so that we can make appropriate suggestions to help him.


ECHistory8



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance




Re: Need opinions on new x-rays & foot progress

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tiffany,

I can do some mark-ups for you. It will take me a day or two as I have some others already waiting. Will that work?

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: acute laminitis and updated case

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Beverly,


I looked at your list of additional supplements in your CH and this is what it says you are currently giving Ginger:  15 ml of Evitex (Chastetreeberry) for 6 yrs and more when more acute, Mov-Ease, Remission, Biotin Plus, J-Herb, Alcar, (on order) chromium yeast, Dr. De Paolo’s special supplement based on hair analysis.  The Plus in Biotin Plus contains rice bran, cinnamon, cloves, all spice, and nutmeg.   Cinnamon is no longer recommended for IR horses.


 I see in posts that the mods have asked you what is in the “special supplement”.  Have you contacted Dr. Paolo and told him the supplementation you are giving Ginger in addition to his custom supplement?   Have you considered there may be redundancy and possible contraindications within your protocol?  Please share the ingredients so the mods can help you sort through your current protocol.

 

Regards,

 

Kathy Brinkerhoff  


SE/WI  10/12



 

 

 





Re: Prascend, dissolved, via syringe?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Unfortunately, one Stud Muffin would prob send my severely IR mare into a diabetic coma! I do very appreciate the interest, though! And knowing that the Stud Muffin is malleable is exceedingly helpful for future "pillings" on my non-IR nags! :) im not familiar with the product, as Ive always had obese horses :)

Thanks so much, but Ive resorted to syringing and a resentful, aloof mare....but one thats sound and alive and with a relatively well-controlled IR status, so I'll take it!

Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 2014
Tofurky Nov 2014


Re: Most accurate method for testing insulin

Maggie
 

Hi "jorey50"

I forgot the link to ECH8.  Here it is:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  If you have any trouble joining, just let us know and we can send you an invite.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Most accurate method for testing insulin

Maggie
 

Hi "jorey50",

Welcome to the group!  Please tell us your first name so we know what to call you.  To give you more specific answers, we need more details about your 9 yo Arab.  We ask all members to fill out a case history on their horse.  To do that you need to join our sister site ECH8, but it shouldn't take long to get approved.  Then just follow the directions on the main page to fill out a CH.  Here's a link to that:  

In the meantime, let me explain our philosophy to you.  It's called DDT/E which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  To answer your question, yes their is a preferred method to get a diagnosis.  Insulin resistance (IR) and Cushing's disease (PPID) are two conditions that have some overlapping and similar symptoms.  At the age of 9, your Arab is unlikely to have PPID, though it's not unheard of in a 9 yo horse.  Arabs, though, along with several other breeds could be the "poster child" for IR!  The 4 tests that we recommend to get a complete diagnosis are: ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin, drawn on a NON-fasting horse, preferably sent to Cornell.  The labs require special handling so have a read on our website for the details.  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis   You'll find a link to Cornell's website on that page which shows the costs of the testing.  Since adding an ACTH (to test for PPID) to the insulin, glucose and leptin, (which tests for IR), doesn't cost that much more, I would definitely do that.  If it comes back normal, you will have established a baseline.  If not, then it will be $25 well spent.  PPID is treated with medicine (pergolide) and IR is treated with Diet

So that takes me on to the next very important part of the DDT/E, Diet.  The diet is low sugar starch grass hay (tested to be under 10% sugar + starch), and low fat (under 4%) with minerals to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay.  And to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost in the hay curing process we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  Details about amounts can be found on the Diet part of our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  Until you can have your hay tested we recommend that you start the emergency diet, which involves soaking you hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water which removes up to ~30% of the sugar content. Make sure you dump the water where the horse(s) cannot get it.   Also, very important as what you DO feed is what you DON'T feed!  No pasture, grain, molasses, sugary treats, including apples and carrots, no brown/ed salt blocks.  You should be feeding 1.5-2% of your horse's BW in grass hay.  We like to use small mesh hay nets with the total hay for the day divided into several small portions.  You can get a fish scale at Walmart for about $10 for weighing your hay.  Getting rid of that lunchtime alfalfa was a wise thing to do!  It can be high in starch, which converts 100% to glucose and can cause an insulin spike, and can also cause some horses to be foot sore.  Here's where we like to send our hay for analysis.  As for the #603 trainer's package for $54:  http://equi-analytical.com/ 

Trim:  Toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  You are welcome to post pictures of your horse's feet so that one of our hoof specialists can see if your trim is optimal.  The pictures would go in the PHOTOS section of ECH8, the group where you join to do your CH.  Here's a site that shows how to take great hoof photos: http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 

Exercise:  The best IR buster there is!  But a laminitic horse should never be forced to move!  You didn't mention if your Arab is footsore or not, but if so, boots and pads may be in order for comfort.  Why did your Arab need to have his SI joint injected?  Just curious, as low grade laminitis can cause a horse to shift their weight and stand in unusual positions and become sore.  This is often mistaken for arthritis and/or other joint problems.  Not saying this is what is going on with your horse, but just something to think about.

So, "jorey50" lots to think about!  We have a TON of information in our files and old messages, and also on our website.  Please take some time to read that information, using the index in blue on the left side to maneuver around.  But don't hesitate to ask any further questions that you have!  We ask all members to sign their name (first is fine), date of joining and general location each time they post.  Also, once you get your CH done, please add a link to it in your signature as well. It really helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster!  Thanks!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Update on Dixie and Dexter...need help with depressed mule!

Lorna Cane
 


Hi Jacque,

Good news about Dixie and Dexter.
But not good news about Dexter's depression.

We need your case history,which I know you were having trouble with last November.Please try again:
ECHistory8

Here is Lavinia's welcome message to you last year.

Please read it again carefully: 



Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

 I always worry when mules/donkeys are depressed.My experience is that they just won't say anything unless it's really bothering them.

Need to get on it for Dexter,especially at this time of year.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 



Update on Dixie and Dexter...need help with depressed mule!

Jacque White
 

Both Dexter and Dixie seem to be doing much better this winter.  I finally have them on Teff Hay.  I just sent in my analysis to Equi-Analytical and hope to hear in a few days. I am continuing to feed in 1 1/4 in hay nets 4 times a day. They receive AZ Copper with a small amount of Purina LS (1/2 cup 2x a day).  They haven't quite acquired a taste for the AZ Copper but get 1/4 cup 2x a day...soon to be increased to 1/2 cup 2x a day. They also get 2 ounces of freshly ground flax seed a day with Vitamin E and D, and 1 TBS of salt 2x a day.

Neither have shown any signs of lameness but I am concerned about my mule Dexter who seems very depressed.  He continues to eat but isn't very active.  He doesn't move much due to the icy conditions. I have sanded the arena to prevent slipping.  They are not kept in stalls but free to move about in a large area.  He chooses to stand in one place most of the day.  He is an introvert and very skeptical.  Is there anything I could do to bring him out of his depression??

Jacque

Alaska


Re: Cold and Insulin

Rita Creitz
 

Hi Nancy,

Re that orbital fat....Houdon is getting magnesium in his mineral supplement.  He also gets about 9g of ALCAR.  Should I give him more?  Or give him something else?  Or a combination of something?  

p.s.  I read and highlighted all of Dr. Bowker's articles from the symposium....fascinating!  I surprised myself getting really interested in how the hoof works....a complicated mechanism for sure, with an amazing capacity for recovery from the worst conditions if given the right care.  

Best,

Rita and Houdon

Gaithersburg, MD

Sept 2013


ECHistory8

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

  The swelling of orbital fat would be a symptom of increased insulin.



 


Most accurate method for testing insulin

J R
 

My horse a 9 year old Arab had his SI injected via ultrasound guidance last week.  The vet told me he could see unusual fat deposits in the rump area and that this is likely a sign of metabolic syndrome.  I took me by surprise because this horse is between a 5-6 on body score and has no obvious fat deposits or crestiness.  I'm obviously concerned and have made a few diet changes (no more alfalfa at lunch for starters!). I would like to test his insulin to determine where it is currently and to hopefully make changes to lower it.  Is there a preferred method for testing that I should request the vet do?


Re: Prascend, dissolved, via syringe?

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Sue, and welcome to the list!  I am glad the Stud Muffins are working for you, but just a warning to those whose horses are insulin resistant as well as PPID (Cushings)  They are very high in sugar and starch:

each treat contains grains such as wheat, oats, barley, and corn, and are fortified with flaxseed and other wholesome ingredients

Here is the link to the website.  The actual sugar/starch isn't given, but the ingredients indicate high levels of both.

https://studmuffinshorsetreats.wordpress.com/

 

So, a great treat for those who know via bloodwork that the horse is not insulin resistant, but not for the rest of us!

Sue, if you sign with your name with your date of joining (2015) and general location, we can better direct you to resources in your area.  Also, I have sent you an invitation to join EC History 8.  This is where the particulars of each horse's history is kept.  Follow the directions to download the template; save it to your computer; fill it out and upload it to a folder on the history site. Let us know if you have any problems.

Again, welcome!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/



---In EquineCushings@..., <suziq12982@...> wrote :

Have you tried feeding her Stud Muffins?


Re: Need opinions on new x-rays & foot progress

Tiffany Woodward
 

Need specific guidance on feet and what to do now.  I'll do it myself if the farrier is unwilling/unable.  Anyone...


Tiffany in NC

Nov. 2014

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/TiffanyWoodward%20and%20Maggie/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/540173897

 


Re: Cold and Insulin

Nancy C
 

Hi Donna

I don't know why you are having such problems.  NEO is a pain for sure but you should not be totally shut out, all the time, for all lists.  My suggestion is to unsubscribe for all ECIR Group lists you are on - the main list, ECH8, Horsekeeping,etc - and re-up with a new yahoo email, ID and password.

I think you are on Dr Kellon's ezine so you may have to do the same for that as well.  I haven't heard that you were unable to access those files.

Make sure you know how to access your yahoo groups and email info.

I agree with Lavinia that the blood handling is an issue.  The swelling of orbital fat would be a symptom of increased insulin.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Sensory nerves in the foot can be activated via tactile light pressure receptors and can affect vascular perfusion through the foot bringing more comfort to the horse. See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <midnightstarulysses@...> wrote :

I do not have a problem with the rules, they are reasonable, I do have a huge problem with Yahoo/Neo and have no way of fixing it....have tried for over 6 months and am ready to throw in the towel,


The low glucose number of 66 concerns me.


Re: Prascend, dissolved, via syringe?

Sue Johnson
 

Have you tried feeding her Stud Muffins? (The soft, moldable treats)  I was hiding bute tablets in them, and my horse decided they were toxic....  But then I started giving them to her occasionally (dropping them in her grain feeder, on the ground at her feet, etc....) and she started eating them again.  After doing this for about 2 weeks, I started hiding her Prascend tablet inside and she has never turned one down.  Its worth a try!


Re: pony update

 

This just says it all.  Thank you Julie. The next time someone looks at me like I'm crazy, I will think about this post.  Thank you

Jean and Amber (IR and Cushings)
In SC
August 2004

90021 - 90040 of 277814