Date   

Re: California Trace Plus

Sara Gooch
 

Stephanie,


Did you ask  about the ESC and starch content in regular  Cal Trace? It might be lower than  Cal Trace Plus. I used regular Cal Trace for a few years when my hay supply varied, and it wasn't feasible to  get a custom-balanced mineral mix


What part of Oregon are you in? 


Sara, NE California 2011


Hyaluronic Acid Source

Donna Coughlin
 

Nancy,


Within the last few days, you posted a resource for high molecular weight HA: NutraBio. Of course, I've scanned through days of messages and can't find that one.


When I went to NutraBio's website, there is no hyaluronic acid listed anywhere (including the overall, alphabetized list)? Is there another source?


I don't want to have to mix it from a powder and keep it in the refrigerator, and have found giving the human 100 mg. capsules to be easier and cheaper than the premixed horse liquid supps like Hyla-Rx. But I have NO idea if these human capsule from NOW, a reputable mfr., but there's no indication on the jar if it's "high molecular weight." 


Any other thoughts or suggestions?


Thanks!


Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin and Obi

CT 2009




Re: Adding phosphate to supps?

lj friedman
 

Well... that settles that.. I did sign up for the ncr plus course, but probably a balancer would be better. 

Can a moderator tell me how to access the courses I have been registered in  ( NCR and cusings/ir) lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8

 




Re: Cushings or Not

Pamela Jacobs
 

Thank you for your response, Maggie! Yes, I will try to join and do a CH soon (I did try in the beginning, but it wasn't working for me).  Just for more information at this point, yes the test was a TRH stimulation test. I do have a hard copy of the test to include. I have read most of the information to which you referred (been doing tons of research since October - mostly on this site!). My research began after the first test, however, otherwise I would have likely questioned the TRG stimulation test particularly without a baseline. I have been giving Bayamo APF to address the veil (which in his case was depression and sluggishness, not any loss of appetite). I think the combination of the APF and reducing the Prascend to .5 tablet really perked him up.  He is still slow, but that may be due to his arthritis. Thank you again for your response and thoughts!

Pamela
Joined Oct/Nov 2014


---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote :

Hi Pamela, 

Welcome to the group!  Though slightly time consuming, a case history (CH) is extremely important for us as it gives the details that we need to answer your questions more accurately.  Please join ECH8 and follow the instructions to get that filled out.  The details that you provide may make all the difference in the advice that we give you.  Here's a link to join: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info 

An example of why the CH is so important is that you mention that the vet "did a stimulation test and collected the blood 10 minutes later".  There is more than one kind of stimulation test, so we need to know more details.  By your description of collecting blood 10 minutes after an injection it sounds like a TRH test, which has a lot of false positives (especially during the seasonal rise), but we would not want to make that assumption without knowing for sure.  Can you get a hard copy of the test?  You can add it to your CH folder in ECH8.

In the meantime, you may benefit from doing a search of the archived messages for information on the TRH test.  Below are a few to get you started, some from Dr. Kellon.  Though the TRH test does have a lot of false positives, especially during the seasonal rise, that does not mean that your horse does not have PPID.  We don't know what his baseline ACTH was in the fall is that correct?  Some horses need pergolide, at the beginning of the disease process anyway, only during the seasonal rise.  Some need pergolide year round.  Sluggishness/depression/lack of appetite can be signs of the pergolide veil, which some, but not all horses experience when first starting on the drug. A product called APF can help with the pergolide veil.  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html 

Here's are the links to some archived messages on the TRH test that may interest you if in fact, that is the test your vet did:





Meanwhile, have a read on our website about our philosophy of DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  All the details that you need to get the DDT under tight control are outlined here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview  Use the menu in blue on the left side to maneuver around the whole site.  There is a LOT of valuable information to read about!  

We ask all members to sign their name (first is fine), date of joining, and general location in their signature each time they post.  And once you get your CH done, please include a link to it in your signature as well.  Thanks!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Cushings or Not

Pamela Jacobs
 

Thank you so much for your response, Dr. Kellon! That crossed my mind as well that he may be early Cushings and might need pergolide anyway, at least during the seasonal rise. Although I do wonder if the vaccinations or other issues may have caused an unusual spike. BTW, it was the TRH stimulation test.  I may taper him off and get his reading and then test again in the spring and August. I definitely will monitor it, and will continue on the low starch/sugar diet regardless. I have read a great deal on this site, the Facebook site and others so I feel like I'm managing Bayamo well.  Again, thank you!

Pamela, joined in Oct/Nov 2014


---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :

In short, yes, it could have been a false positive - sort of!  He may still have normal ACTH when not in the seasonal rise but with a response that high my bet would be he is an early Cushing's horse.  I think it's reasonable to taper him off and retest.  If negative, would plan on testing both insulin and ACTH in late August.  If his insulin is worsening, consider at least seasonal pergolide to head off laminitis.

Eleanor in Pa
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Adding phosphate to supps?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

At 65% RDI (= minimum daily intake to avoid deficiency), you are deficient and need to correct that.  Further, there may be ratio abnormalities that add to this defiency and require even more supplementation to prevent high calcium interfering with absorption of phosphorus.  A third consideration is you are using averages not an actual analysis so these factors may be even worse in your situation and on another front the software you used does not take ratios into consideration so you may have major trace mineral issues as well.

You need to correct the P with monosodium Phosphate and seriously consider getting a better analysis of trace minerals because iron/manganese overload can seriously fuel IR.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Selenium vehicle ?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, you can use selenium yeast:

Selenium Yeast Blend


  Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC co-owner

Feb 2001


Re: coconut oil.

Ronelle Dietsch <ronelledietsch@...>
 

I have not tried flax seeds.  I used flax seeds for me a few years ago, but they went rotten so fast that is was a costly and wasteful supplement.  The Hoof and Skin Guard here (Oregon) does have (or did have) selenium in it.  I stopped that and kept California Trace as I thought that was better for my horse.  Plus it had less selenium in it.


Re: Adding phosphate to supps?

Lorna Cane
 



>Would remaining at 65% RDI be a crime?


I don't understand RDI - Speak, as it pertains to only one mineral,LJ.  You need to be interested in your Calcium / Phosphorus / Magnesium ratios .


As many have said,your best course is to either find a person to balance Jesse's diet for you,or sign up for the NRCPlus course to arm yourself with the knowledge to do it yourself.

I personally know all about the 'spinning my wheels' game. Just doesn't cut it.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: Bermuda plus pellets from mnt sunrise

paulah@...
 

Hi LJ,

The mission of this group led by Dr. Kellon and the moderators is healthy horses with NO LAMINITIS.  To that end, they have put together the DDTE (Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise) protocol that is recommended to everyone who comes to the list for help.  That protocol is based on data and lots and lots of experience and success helping horses avoid or overcome the debilitating consequences of missed diagnosis, misdiagnosis or inappropriate treatment.

The easiest, cheapest and most effective way to help your horse is to follow the DDTE recommendations as outlined.  The ECIRhorse.org site is the best way to get the overall picture of the approach and then searching conversations and files will give lots more detail about the specifics.  If you are unable to obtain the items you need, the moderators and members are a great resource for other options if you need them.

I worked with a vet who specialized in nutrition, a well-known farrier whose claim to fame is balancing the foot around a dot and a vet practice who told me that I didn’t need to change my horse-keeping for a horse with an insulin of 87 and later when the horse’s feet got very hot, that it’s not laminitis unless the horse is lame.  All of those professionals’ advice and actions contributed to my horse’s laminitis, in spite of sincerely believing they were right.  When I joined this group, I did my best to follow the group’s philosophy and suggestions and my horse got better.  Not one bit of advice hurt my horse.  Let me say that again; not one bit of ECIR advice hurt my horse and he got better.  I am eternally grateful for Dr. Kellon and this amazing group of volunteers who provide so much important information, experience, advice and encouragement to us.

Keep it simple. Follow the DDTE and go back and review the DDTE on a regular basis.  Take your advice from a group with a proven track record of success in helping many, many horses.

Best regards,

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011   ECIR course 2014

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778

ECHistory8      



Re: treats

Ellen
 

Hi Kerry,

    I am responding to your earlier posting. I use sugar free peppermint lifesavers as a treat for my IR pony mare. For a change I use Emerald Valley's low s/s Beet Treats. On You tube there is a recipe for low s/s home made treats. I haven't made them as I don't cook.

 

Ellen and Annie

20014

Long Island, NY

> My mare is IR and very early PPID. She is on 1.5mg pergolide (Prascend).
> When her insulin is high she is profoundly lethargic and depressed. It can
> literally change day-to-day. In fact, I jump on her bareback every few
> days just to feel how her energy level is as part of my monitoring of her
> condition in between bloodwork. Since starting pergolide last fall her
> insulin is much easier to control and under tack she feels great! In
> fact, she was such a powerhouse when i got on this week Im getting out her
> jumping tack (we do eventing/hunter pacing) which I thought might be put
> away for good :( considering how badly my mare was feeling thru the fall.
>
> Im unable to open your case history via my phone but I am curious if your
> horse had any IR history, as I was shocked at just how quickly and
> profoundly my mare's energy level could change bc of her wildly
> fluctuating insulin status.
>
> Kerry in NY
> Pinky Sept 2014
> Tofurky Nov 2014
>
>


Adding phosphate to supps?

lj friedman
 

Dr. K told me to fix my phosphate levels which are at 65% of RDI. Because Ca is already very high I am stuck on what to do and am considering remaining at 65% RDI unless there is a fix that makes sense. Would remaining at 65% RDI be a crime? I keep my supps simple and dont use Horsetech. ( r/sr/beet pulp, farriers formula, tc omega flax  salt, vit E,  and soon to be added selenium leaves only the phosphate coming up short. And another factor is that I give these same supps to a non-cushings horse who eats orchard hay but also needs farriers formul and salt for sure)  I dont want to re invent the wheel for 100% Rdi phosphate unless it is very important. 

ECHistory8



Selenium vehicle ?

lj friedman
 

I need to add 2 mg of selenium to my horses supps. I already bought many bottles of puritans pride 1000 iu vit e in soybean oil so I dont want to switch to a vite/sel combo.  Are there any particular brands or types of selenium that I should consider? lj friedman san diego nov 2014,


ECHistory8



Re: California Trace Plus

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Everyone,

@Lorna, I lost my CH when my computer crashed so I don't have one to post until I can fill it all out again. I can answer any questions if you need!

I contacted CA Trace(Sally) and heard back about the ESC and Starch values if anyone is interested. The California Trace Plus has "Per Equi-analytical, each 4 ounce serving of CA Trace PLUS contains: ESC  8.7 grams, Starch 7.5 grams".

I know this is high for an IR horse so I'm thinking that it's not safe. So, does anyone have another mineral supplement they use? I know the perfect situation is to get the hay balanced but I just can't do that right now so trying to find something that will help for now.

Thanks!
Stephanie
Oregon
Oct 2014




Re: Problem with horse without energy

Nancy C
 

Hi Cynthia

This lethargy seems to be a chronic problem for Tucker. I don't think horses are lazy without a reason. To get to the bottom of it, use the DDT+E road map and pull the pieces apart.

Diagnosis - are you sure Tucker needs pergo all year?  Yes, I have read his CH again and know he was elevated in April 2013 after being trucked to the clinic. You raised his dose based on symptoms.   There also may be other undiagnosed issues.

Diet - most horses need more calories, more protein, more salt when working. Might want to review again the  "Feeding Recovered Laminitic" Doc  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/feeding-recovered-laminitics

 

Trim - Bad hoof form, pain, can make a horse very sluggish.

Exercise - Pushing them to far too fast can cause issues but I think you probably on top of this.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <cboriskin@...> wrote :

My horse has always been sluggish.

EC Case History 3



Re: Cushings or Not

Maggie
 

Hi Pamela, 

Welcome to the group!  Though slightly time consuming, a case history (CH) is extremely important for us as it gives the details that we need to answer your questions more accurately.  Please join ECH8 and follow the instructions to get that filled out.  The details that you provide may make all the difference in the advice that we give you.  Here's a link to join: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info 

An example of why the CH is so important is that you mention that the vet "did a stimulation test and collected the blood 10 minutes later".  There is more than one kind of stimulation test, so we need to know more details.  By your description of collecting blood 10 minutes after an injection it sounds like a TRH test, which has a lot of false positives (especially during the seasonal rise), but we would not want to make that assumption without knowing for sure.  Can you get a hard copy of the test?  You can add it to your CH folder in ECH8.

In the meantime, you may benefit from doing a search of the archived messages for information on the TRH test.  Below are a few to get you started, some from Dr. Kellon.  Though the TRH test does have a lot of false positives, especially during the seasonal rise, that does not mean that your horse does not have PPID.  We don't know what his baseline ACTH was in the fall is that correct?  Some horses need pergolide, at the beginning of the disease process anyway, only during the seasonal rise.  Some need pergolide year round.  Sluggishness/depression/lack of appetite can be signs of the pergolide veil, which some, but not all horses experience when first starting on the drug. A product called APF can help with the pergolide veil.  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html 

Here's are the links to some archived messages on the TRH test that may interest you if in fact, that is the test your vet did:





Meanwhile, have a read on our website about our philosophy of DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  All the details that you need to get the DDT under tight control are outlined here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview  Use the menu in blue on the left side to maneuver around the whole site.  There is a LOT of valuable information to read about!  

We ask all members to sign their name (first is fine), date of joining, and general location in their signature each time they post.  And once you get your CH done, please include a link to it in your signature as well.  Thanks!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Cushings or Not

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

In short, yes, it could have been a false positive - sort of!  He may still have normal ACTH when not in the seasonal rise but with a response that high my bet would be he is an early Cushing's horse.  I think it's reasonable to taper him off and retest.  If negative, would plan on testing both insulin and ACTH in late August.  If his insulin is worsening, consider at least seasonal pergolide to head off laminitis.

Eleanor in Pa
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: coconut oil.

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Ronelle,

Is this the product you are/were feeding?  Hoof & Hair Guard | Horse Guard

 


Which product did you stop?  If you are feeding Hoof & Hair this is the contribution your are receiving per day based on the 6 oz. recommended serving at a cost of $1.74:  Biotin 106 mg or 0.1 gram, Methionine 6 grams, Lysine 6 grams, Zinc 400 mg, Glycine 3.5 grams, Phenylalmine 3.2 grams, Cystine and soy oil 32 grams.  Copper is listed in the ingredient list,  but not in the guaranteed analysis.  There is no selenium listed.   You can easily compare this to the CA Trace analysis which is listed on the site and I think you will agree that the CA Trace gives you a better nutrient profile.  There is no equine requirement for glycine and phenylalmine that I could find.  It is my understanding that if you are supplementing methionine you don't need to supplement cystine.  Of course, as you know, the most effective tool to your horse's diet is hay/diet analysis and to supplement according to requirement and diet deficiencies.

Are you considering supplementing flax?  The flax Omega 3: Omega 6 profile is closest to grass and if he were my horse and I thought he might be IR I would chose flax over coconut oil.

Kathy Brinkerhoff

10/12  SE/WI

 




Re: chia vs. flax

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The rationale for grinding flax is that the seeds are too small to chew so it will be utilized better if ground first.  This has never actually been proven to be the case.  Since chia seeds are both smaller and harder than flax seeds, it makes no sense to say they don't have to be ground but flax does.


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Problem with horse without energy

Kerry Isherwood
 

Oops! Just saw that your post said your horse is not IR. I missed that in my first read. Sorry!

Kerry in NY

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