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Re: Reading Messages / WAS Lab results

 

Lorna - I come to work early, get a cup of coffee and read most of the messages (maybe not all of them) before my start time.  AND yes, I learn something new everyday.  I love this site.

Just want to commend the first responders and moderators for the wonderful job that you do.  Your patience is remarkable and I thank you for giving your precious time to help each and everyone of us.  A very big THANK YOU.

Jean and Amber
In South Carolina
member since August 2004
CIR 12/11, 08/13
NAT 06/12
NCR Plus 04/12


Safe weight gain

hinecedark@...
 

In case it might help someone in this position, I will share what finally allowed me to safely put weight back on my PPID horse, while getting his flax and minerals into him.

Cato, 1100lb normally, had already lost about 200 lb when I found this group. The emergency diet resulted in more weight loss, as did the period while I tried various carriers, taste tempters and foods which he wouldn't eat (did I mention Picky Eater?). Finally in desperation, I went back to soaking his already safe, tested hay, albeit briefly, so I could sprinkle the flax/mineral mix on it before feeding it wet. This he would eat. I worried that more would fall on the ground than get into the horse, but one of the mods assured me that was not the case. Either way, he was getting more of it than he was by not eating the feed/pellet/cube mixes at all. It took over a year of this, and unlimited hay, but currently Cato is back to a normal weight (ribs, hip bones covered but just slightly visible) and relatively stable (if I keep on top of pergolide doseage). To this day he has never been hungry enough to eat beet pulp, no matter what is added to it, will occassionally eat a few ODTBC from a toy, but none from his feed box, so this solution has been a life saver for us.

HTH,

Melinda and Cato

IN 2010




Re: Help with Trim--RE-Posted

Suzanne Mansolilli
 


This was originally posted Feb 5. Please let me know if I should be posting this in ECHoof instead of here.  Thnx!

---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :

Monty has now had 5 trims spaced 4 weeks apart since Linda first did mark-ups.  I showed my farrier the mark-ups and her written explanation of our goals at the first trim and was present for the next two.  I am now away for the winter and my farrier has trimmed him on his own for the last 2 trims.  I asked him to take sole shots which I uploaded so we can get some feedback. 


I apologize for the photos, I didn't explain in detail how to take them.  Please let me know if you need better pics.


Many thanks,


SuzanneM and Monty

Western Colorado -- July, 2014

Case History:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM & Monty/

Photos:  ECHistory8



Re: Reading Messages / WAS Lab results

Lorna Cane
 


>Hang in there Merle!  You cannot learn it all overnight!  You are doing great!  Keep reading the files, website, and archives messages, and ask any questions that you have. 

I just want to add something to Maggie's fabulous (as usual) post. I've been thinking about this for a while.
I know that time is of the essence,especially when we are looking after ongoing issues with our ponies. And I think that many people read only the messages that apply to them (understandably),or that have applied to them.
If you can make the time, though, you will do your ponies a service to read all the messages. If you absolutely can't read all the messages, try to read the messages written to welcome new members written by our First Responders.
They are FULL of fabulous information, links to more information, and are almost  crash courses in things to look for/do *now*,as the learning curve is tackled.
Also,we are not all diligent (Note to self.)about making sure the Subject Line reflects the body of the message.So some real jewels escape unnoticed.

I've been here for 13 years,and STILL pick up bits of old information that I had forgotten about,or had never registered with  me before, or are new, but which I now need.
As a mod, reading all messages is part of what I do. I'm really fortunate that way, because I can see how otherwise I might think I just couldn't afford the time.
It really doesn't take that long.

And the benefits  to our horses are huge.

Just a thought.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: Lab results

Maggie
 

Hi Merle,


I know it can all be so confusing and really hard to wrap your head around at first!   Chanda has already given you some great advice about making sure Camelot's ACTH has come down.  It hasn't been quite 3 weeks since you started him on pergolide, and  his ACTH was 104 in December, our naturally low time of the year .  Is retesting his ACTH to make sure the current pergolide dose is controlling it in the finances?  We like to see the ACTH solidly in the middle of the normal range, and we recommend retesting 3 weeks after reaching your target dose.  Sometimes the target dose is 1 mg, sometimes more (or less).  Lots of horses in this group are on more. (check out the pergolide data base:  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24516590/DosageDatabase/ECIR%20Pergolide%20Dosage%20Database.pdf ).


 Many people cannot afford to test that often and as an adjunct to testing use a list of symptoms to help them determine if the dose is correct.  Here is a post by Patti that can help you with that: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/111988?

Getting the dose of pergolide right is often the clue to getting the weight back on.


All that said, beet pulp is a great way to help put weight on if Camelot likes it!  It has about 1.5 x's as many calories as hay and you can replace up to 1/3 of his diet with it.  Like Chanda said, make sure you rinse/soak/rinse it well.  Go to the beet pulp file and read about all the great benefits of beet pulp and how to transition to less hay, more BP.  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Beet%20Pulp/  You can even prepare (r/s/r) it in larger volumes and freeze it in portion sizes. 


Linseed meal  is the by-product of extracting the oil from flax seed.  We want the Omega 3's and 6's that are in the flax seed (in a ratio of 4:1, which is closest to grass) since it's missing in the IR diet that is devoid of grass.  Like Chanda said, the Rice bran is not appropriate because of the inversed Omega 3:6 ratio and because high fat feeding is not recommended.  Here's a post from Dr Kellon that says:  "We have had several reports from this list where just increasing rice bran amount caused problems, and of IR horses that did not tolerate even a 6% fat feed in any significant amounts."  You can read the whole post here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/120961 


To save you some angst, Merle, there are very few "bagged" feeds that are appropriate for our special needs horses.  R/s/r Beet pulp, ODTB's, Nuzu Stabul 1, small amounts of Triple Crown Lite as a carrier for your minerals or as a taste tempter.  The reason the Timothy pellets are not recommended are 1) no guarantee that they are under 10% sugar+starch, and 2) high iron, 3) they vary from batch to batch, making mineral balancing difficult.  The manufacturers of horse feeds have some very strong marketing tactics.  But just for "fun" take a look at the guaranteed analysis, and the ingredients listed of various horse feeds, keeping in mind the guidelines of this group--under 10% sugar+starch, low iron, low fat (under 4%).  Sometimes you can't even get the guaranteed analysis!  It will be a real learning experience!


Hang in there Merle!  You cannot learn it all overnight!  You are doing great!  Keep reading the files, website, and archives messages, and ask any questions that you have. 


Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Lab results

Chanda
 

My Cushing's gelding will drop weight in the fall if I'm not on top of the dosage on his pergolide to cover the fall seasonal rise in cortisol, so hopefully when you get Camelot's diet and meds right for him, he'll pick up weight and get to where he should be.

Be sure to soak/rinse/soak the standlee beet pulp, I've found them to take more rinsing than other brands, at least the bags I've bought have been that way.   [Be sure to rinse them til the water runs clear after soaking.] 

Plain flaxseed (linseed) is safe at appropriate levels, as it provides necessary Omega 3 fatty acids, and is recommended.    Rice bran is high in Omega 6 fatty acids, which aren't recommended for metabolic horses, although some might tolerate a low level, the high fat isn't recommended for IR horses.

Almost all horse feeds are around $20/bag around here, but it's really hard to swallow if you want to use the feed as a complete feed as some do with the ODTB cubes (as just a carrier, the price isn't unreasonable).

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Lab results

M K
 

Thank you for the info Maggie,

Now I really don't know what to do.  I looked into the ODTB cubes. $22 per 50 Lb. bag is really out of the question.

What is the alternative?  I've started to add Stanlee Beet Pulp to replace some of the Timothy pellets to help put weight on.

Camelot was always plump until this past fall when he lost an alarming amount of weight and became bony.

Which is why I was thinking he needed the high protein of the Purina Enrich.

Do you have any idea if pure Linseed meal and Rice Bran would be under 10%?  Hi-Pro™ Feed Base: The Foundation of Our Hi-Tech Horse Feed

 

 Merle Kentner, NE TX,  Dec 2014


Re: Mountain Sunrise Product Analyses

Nancy C
 

Combined esc and starch are higher than I'd like for my very sensitive IR gelding.

Majors are okay.  Trace minerals - where the rubber meets the road and so often forgotten by feed comanies - are missing. 

Please see Dr Kellon 2013 NO Laminitis! proceedings Minerals and IR (it's free)

Conference Proceedings & Recordings
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 




---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


 >ESC of 6.9 and Starch of 4.2

As you know ,we recommend  10%, or under. Some horses can not tolerate even 10%

>You know they are marketed for Cushing's and Ir ?

The key word here is marketed.

>And my understanding is that a vet co manufactured with them for that purpose

The point being?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup



 



 


Re: Flaxseed oil instead of ground flax/ whole flax seeds

gypsylassie
 


I wonder if the horses that don't like the ground flax, but will eat the whole flax, would eat  flax that has been freshly ground for just a second?   Just enough to crack the seed, but not turn into a fine texture that they don't like.  Would that little bit of grinding be enough to make the omega 3 available?

Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL.2011


Re: Mountain Sunrise Product Analyses

Lorna Cane
 


 >ESC of 6.9 and Starch of 4.2

As you know ,we recommend  10%, or under. Some horses can not tolerate even 10%

>You know they are marketed for Cushing's and Ir ?

The key word here is marketed.

>And my understanding is that a vet co manufactured with them for that purpose

The point being?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup



 



 


Re: Pergolide

Lorna Cane
 



No slapping, Angela!!

What a kind offer.Very sad that you are in a position to make it,though.

I have emailed you privately,but not sure if you got it.To say how very sorry I am to hear about Bridie. I know you feel gutted. If only there were words to stop that feeling ,but it's impossible.

R.I.P. Bridie

Hugs,

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Hi all,

Lorna & Dr, K


It has been a while since I last posted. I have 100 caps of 3.5mg of Pergolide if some one requires these, no cost.Just C.O.D. by mail from Canada. I do not want to throw them out if someone can use them and it will help.They expire at 6 months the end of May.   Not sure if we are allowed to even post this info any more. If not, I will take my slap now! 

Angela

Breare I.R. 18 years now

& Bridie I.R. Cushing's 34 years (deceased) Feb 04 2015

Joined May 2004 



 



Re: Flaxseed oil instead of ground flax

Michele Cameron
 

Just an FYI regarding buying ground flax...Many years ago, I switched from whole flax to buying pre-ground/non stabilized flax & I fed it to my Standardbred  , not knowing it was rancid... He began having a twitching in his shoulder muscle which over the course of a couple of weeks became a major dysfunction... eventually a friend inspected my feed and she could tell by the smell that the flax was "mildly" off.... We discontinued using it and in a week he was better. After that though he could not tolerate any flax at all, even fresh ground or whole, so be careful to follow the directions for keeping it, and learn what good flax smells like.


Re: Mountain Sunrise Product Analyses

lj friedman
 

So what do the moderators think of the analysis of the Bermuda plus pallets from Mountain sunrise? You know they are marketed for Cushing's and Ir ? And my understanding is that a vet co manufactured with them for that purpose. Lj Friedman San Diego November 2014

Sent from my iPhone


Re: cold protection for sensitive feet in IR horse

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Sally -
Thanks - that's good to hear!
Karen
Scarborough,ME
May/2014
---- "larks.tabatha@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

I have used them on my Donkey's legs to protect her from biting flies, and they have been great.

Sally in N. AZ
April 2013


Re: cold protection for sensitive feet in IR horse

kansteen5545@...
 

Thank you!
It's nice to hear from someone who has used them. I guess I was worried about them being too tight. But if you've used them for years, they must be all right.
Karen
Scarborough, ME
May/2014



---- "sayge17@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

I was about to suggest the Sox for Horses myself. The product is awesome,
and Paula and her husband will treat you and your horse like royalty. I
have used their summer and winter sox for years on all my horses- 2 of which
were Cushings/IR & one gentleman was 32 with ringbone . The winter Whinneys
kept their legs warm, ( you can get different lengths) and can be pulled
down over the front of the hoof as well. I highly recommend them. ~Grace
/NY 2001 Thor & Flying Feature



Mountain Sunrise Product Analyses

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi All,


I just checked the Mountain Sunrise site and they have added the analyses for their various pelleted products.  Bermuda Plus has an ESC of 6.9 and Starch of 4.2 according to the D-O analysis that is posted.


Kathy Brinkerhoff


SE/WI  10/12




Analysis



Re: Pergolide

takarri@...
 




Hi Angela,

I'm so sorry to hear that Bridie passed. What a grand old age. I remember her story & the  passion you showed with all your furkids. They taught us all a lot. How kind of you to think of others at this sad time.

Pauline

Jack,Spur

Angel Harry

Australia

Aug 07

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas



Re: Timothy Pellets

Chanda
 

The Stabul 1 Nuggets are for sale off their website, so might be an option for a taste tempter.  I got the banana flavor for my gelding and he eats up his meds with a little scoop of the banana nugget crumbs.   If I lived where there was a dealer close, it might just be his diet, so I wouldn't have to mess with mixing anything.

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Timothy Pellets

Lorna Cane
 

>Thanks in Advance


Hi Sandy,

Can you add your link to your case history to your signature so the volunteers can see the whole picture - can better advise you this way.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup









 


Re: cold protection for sensitive feet in IR horse

Larks Tabatha
 

I have used them on my Donkey's legs to protect her from biting flies, and they have been great.

Sally in N. AZ
April 2013

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