Date   

Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Nancy C
 

lj

As instructive as this thread may be to others in terms of understanding iron overload and the nuances of diagnosis and balancing, we're going in circles for Jesse.

Unless you are speaking with others who are not on the ECIR list of balancers, I am aware of which balancers and volunteers you have been speaking with. So is Dr Kellon. You absolutely can trust what they tell you. They are all long time experienced members, trained by Dr Kellon, and, not only by their own personal experiences, but those experiences of 100's and 1000s of cases they have followed over the years.

This is not your typical "horse forum" and honestly, asking to reply to quotes from such forums is a waste of volunteer time time. We're here to help folks work with their individual cases. You need to speak to questions specifically about Jesse.

If you had taken the time to digest the thread on FF and iron overload, the comments by the formulator would not surprise you. The fact that they have changed their formula is great and quite frankly brought about in no small part by the members of this group who have been fighting the comments of very vocal and prominent nay-sayers,  (researchers, nutritionists, supplements vendors and grass ladies) for years.

But I digress.

I'm glad to hear you say Jesse deserves your 100% effort. It is why we are still here for him. The fact that you have no experience in horses is not relevant to the conversation.  Most of people who come here are completely in the dark when it comes to PPID and IR and the consequences so you are on the same playing field.

Go back and read Dr Kellon's two posts to you re: your diagnosis, the lack of knowledge of your total diet, the the amount of iron in the FF and whether or not the FF is going to give you what you need to balance specifically for Jesse. In fact I would recommend you re-read all the posts on this FF and iron subjects. You can find them by scrolling through the messages on the group web page.

Best thoughts for Jesse.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

I posted his reply to get the groups reaction..

 




ADMIN / Please Read about Messages

Lorna Cane
 

Just a note , especially to new members.


The advice given here by Primary Response and Moderators is advice recommended by The 

Group. 

Dr. Kellon, the PR and M. teams are always reading.


If something is said which is questionable it will be picked up by one of us.

That is the beauty of having all our conversations on the board.


But what I think is also important to know is that advice given by one of the above 

mentioned members is the advice which  those other team members would also give. So it isn't 

necessary to wait for all of the team members to speak up on a particular issue.


There are many members who are not on the above-mentioned teams who are also very well 

-versed in the recommendations of the Group,and are so appreciated for their input. Their 

messages are open to the  same scrutiny as the messages of our 'teams'.




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

........ Of particular interest is that the mare is much like the sow in that iron does not pass the placental barrier readily. Many foals with iron deficiency  are from mares with normal to low normal blood levels of iron. This is the reason many newborn pigs and foals require supplemental iron.

 = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Neonates of ALL species are born with low iron stores. Iron has high toxicity to the fetus and newborn.  Foals can be, and have been, killed by oral iron.  Piglets are more resistant to oral iron toxicity because they have a relatively low density of iron receptors in their gut (a protective adaptation in this species with does a lot of rooting around in soil). However, it is also possible to poison piglets with oral iron.

Baby pigs develop anemia for the same reason stall confined foals do - lack of access to SOIL.  It has nothing to do with iron stores in the dam or sow.  In fact, supplementing sows even with injectable iron does not change the iron level in the piglets or in her milk.

http://old.pork.org/filelibrary/factsheets/pigfactsheets/newfactsheets/04-01-07g.pdf

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

 



Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I truely believe there is something in the FF beyond the usual biotin/methionine that was missing in my horse's diet (before I discovered his IR status and corrected his diet) that drastically helped my gelding's hoof quality. Higher quality protein? A specific amino acid? Idk, but theres no doubt FF has helped this particular horse. (i tried streamlining diet by switching to Horsetech's Bioflax--ground flax plus comparable amts biotin/methionine but results after several months were quite disappointing)

= = = = = = = = = = =

Could be protein, but don't overlook copper and zinc.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb  2001


Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

 I was told from a balancer, name withheld, that 4 oz of FF isnt going to make much of any difference but my hay pellets and bp will.
= = = =  === = = = =

You are missing the point here.  How good a fit any supplement is depends on the analysis of the whole diet (which you do not know) and how tight the trace mineral ratios have to be because of iron overload (which you also do not know).

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Kerry,

>I am in the process of balancing minerals as per my full hay analysis and if its shown that i need to discontinue FF bc of overload of iron or other, of course I will, though I truely believe there is something in the FF beyond the usual biotin/methionine that was missing in my horse's diet (before I discovered his IR status and corrected his diet) that drastically helped my gelding's hoof quality.

Higher copper, zinc? 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Kerry Isherwood
 

I know I definitely will keep using it, at least on my one IR that is relatively well controlled! It has made an incredible transformation in horse being able to maintain hoof capsule shape--he used to splay & flare like an old foundered broodmare by week 3 post shoeing. Now he maintains beautiful shape all the way to 5 weeks.

Out of desperation i started feeding FF last March but purposely didnt tell my farrier (to amuse myself with my informal "blind" study). I almost fell over when, after 3 months of maint dose FF, said farrier--who is notoriously gruff--exclaimed, "wow, his feet look great! You must be finally riding him right!" I let that charade continue for another 6 months until my farrier's ego got to be too much by thinking his divine hands had transformed the impossible into gorgeous textbook feet and i finally told him i was using FF. It has remained a stalemate between us that we just dont talk about ;)


Disclaimer: I started FF way before my gelding was diagnosed IR. My farrier has repeatedly told me that the gelding's feet have evidence of past laminitic damage but I brushed it off as meaning way WAY back in his history before i rescued him from the kill auction. I mean, come on, I would certainly notice if my horse was foundering, right? Well, at our most recent shoeing (two weeks ago) my farrier showed me the tell-tale stretched laminar ring around both front toes -- ugh, my worst nightmare. This horse is never, ever lame! I only discovered he was an IR horse in Nov 2014 so obviously since then he has been under house arrest in a drylot with my IR/PPID mare. Luckily I have local hay that tested at roughly 6% (ESC+starch) and Tofurky loves the ODTB cubes and is in perfect body condition. I am in the process of balancing minerals as per my full hay analysis and if its shown that i need to discontinue FF bc of overload of iron or other, of course I will, though I truely believe there is something in the FF beyond the usual biotin/methionine that was missing in my horse's diet (before I discovered his IR status and corrected his diet) that drastically helped my gelding's hoof quality. Higher quality protein? A specific amino acid? Idk, but theres no doubt FF has helped this particular horse. (i tried streamlining diet by switching to Horsetech's Bioflax--ground flax plus comparable amts biotin/methionine but results after several months were quite disappointing)

FWIW,
Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 2014
Tofurky Nov 2014


Re: IR/PSSM

Maggie
 

Hi Trish,

I don't know if this helps or not but you have to download the CH form into your computer to fill it out.  Then save it and go back to ECH8 and upload it into your CH folder.

Are you rinsing your beet pulp till clear, then soaking it and then rinsing again?  This helps to remove the dirt (iron) and the sugar remaining after processing.  Can you work your way up on the salt to about 1-2 heaping Tablespoons/day?  Additionally, they should have 24/7 access to a plain white salt block.

Great that Millie's blood work indicated that she did not have Cushing's.  It would be great to see the actual numbers if you can get your CH done.  You can also upload a hard copy of your lab work in your CH folder.

Also lots of discussion in archived messages.  Just type in "iron overload" into the search box in the conversations and you'll get TONS of hits!!  You can narrow it down in the "advanced search" box by typing in an author, say "Kellon" and then "iron overload" in the "message" area.

Also you can download the proceedings from the 2013 No Laminitis Conference Dr Kellon's Iron Overload and Insulin Resistance on our website here:  http://www.ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings/2013-proceedings-recordings-table-of-contents   Just scroll down to the PDF forms and you can download them for free.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 


Re: Teshan booked for trim

Lorna Cane
 



> Ive put up some photos, the best I can do on my own. 

Link, K ?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Teshan booked for trim

kleonaptra@...
 

Thank you very much Nancy,

 Ive put up some photos, the best I can do on my own. When I have someone to help we can get her on a better surface. Still, you get the idea, her feet have never looked this bad. She also has a touch of thrush. 

 She is quite desperate to not put any weight on her off hind. Im finding this very suspicious, as that is the stallion's sore bit too.( He injured the stifle at 3 months old, genetic disease and fractures were ruled out.)
 She does not seem sore up front but really doesnt want weight on her back feet. 

How I am missing my old farrier, who taught me so much. Im worried because occasionally, after my new guy trims up here, the stallion starts paddling. Ive been with this boy every day of his life, and I know he tracks dead straight, back feet into front hoof prints. So Im just thinking of small mistakes and big consequences. Im going to try and get in touch with my old farrier I think. He doesnt work any more but he would probably love to chime in. 

She is booked for her blood test Monday 16/3 so we should have all the numbers about 2 weeks after that. I will post more photos after her trim.


Re: Pam and Bailey (New Member)

paulah@...
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :


Can someone recommend a trimmer in Pam's area (Maryland)?


 Hi Pam,
Jeanne Starr is a Pete Ramey certified trimmer in MD.

Her phone number is four one zero  five nine eight   four zero three eight

Best regards,

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011  

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778

ECHistory8      

 














Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

lj friedman
 

I posted his reply to get the groups reaction.. I was told from a balancer, name withheld, that 4 oz of FF isnt going to make much of any difference but my hay pellets and bp will. I do as the group thinks is correct. So, I await your input and will do as you suggest/recommend..

lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8

 




Re: Jesse updated thyroid results

lj friedman
 

I re-read Dr. Kellons article on this subject saying that eurosick is secondary hypothyroidism. I know that Jesse gets 2 mg selenium from selenium yeast and 3 oz of iodized salt. I notice that he did not receive a TSH test?     I ask because the Cornell interpretation choices show eurosick and secondary as being different conditions..    still lots to learn  and r/s/r ing my beetpulp till it runs clear.. ( no easy task but halfway  measures get you halfway results . Jesse needs 100% effort)  lj friedman san diego nov 2014



 

ECHistory8

 




Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Lj,

You have been part of this informative thread on Farrier's Formula, iron overload and the reason why we balance trace minerals to iron in the diet;   so I am curious as to  your thoughts regarding this email you received from Dr. Gravlee of Life Data Labs (Farrier's Formula)?   Will you go forward continuing to supplement with FF?

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




How to navigate under search groups

lj friedman
 

When I put a topic in searh conversations and press search groups, I get a list of topics but cant seem to do more than see the one I clicked on.. any way to see the others that are part of the list the search yielded?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014 


Re: Pam and Bailey (New Member)

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

"can you tell me what you did when Cory was down more than up?"

Hi Pam-- I am so sorry you and Bailey are going through this. When Cory started to lay down pretty much 24 hours a day, I was stressed by this also. When he stood, he would tremble all over and arch his back and look as if he was mentally willing his body to levitate off of the ground. I was crushed by the look of pain on his face. It would take him ten minutes to travel the ten feet from his outside window to his inside window. Then he would lay down again and by this time I was glad to see it. During all of this time (probably two months that he was down most of the time), I never considered euthanasia because his appetite and attitude remained good. I have always felt with all of my animals that as long as they are eating, they want to keep going.

I did all of the things others recommended, hay near the head, water buckets brought frequently, lots of scratches and foot massages. And who knew that horses can poop laying down? Not me.

But certainly, the learning to trim while down was key to getting him better, I think. I could never find a farrier here who was willing to work with me or even listen to the "toes back/heels lowered" idea, so I have done it myself. At first all you need is a rasp. You have to try a lot of different positions to get to the area you want to work on. You can only do the front foot of the side he is not laying on (unless he is flat out, which Cory would do sometimes). I would rasp the heels from side to side, just the width of the rasp. The toes you can get by lifting the toe of the foot off of the ground a couple of inches, and then you can use a couple of inches of the rasp on the toe. It is slow going there, but can be done. Others may have better suggestions. Bailey will learn to enjoy it, I think. Did you see the photo in my album of Cory napping while getting his mani?

Please feel free to ask specific questions. I feel like I have a masters in finding the right technique to get to various parts of the foot. Oh, and don't forget the rears. They can easily be done while down, much easier to access.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: Farriers formula and iron overload

lj friedman
 

This email is from the DVM at Farriers Formula,, concerning iron overload. Any thoughts on this? 

The iron level in Farrier’s Formula Double Strength has been reduced to 222 mg/lb (as fed basis) as tested by an independent lab. An 85 gram serving (1/2 cup, or a 4 fluid oz. measure) will deliver the horse approximately 42 mg of iron in the form of iron oxide.

 

Iron is not added to any of Life Data’s equine products; however iron oxide is a component of an ingredient that helps condition the pellets. The amount of this pellet conditioner in the product was reduced in mid-2014 to less than ½ of the prior formulation. The pellet conditioner is a natural clay that has been cleaned and  sterilized. This pellet conditioner reduction has not affected the quality of the pellets.

 

Research has implicated that an excess of absorbable iron in the diet, or iron overload, may be linked to insulin resistance in horses.

 

More information is needed, such as double blind research studies, on whether iron oxide is indeed broken down in the horse’s gut and absorbed as iron in any significant amounts. Our thoughts and conventional wisdom dictates that iron oxide is tightly bound and is not broken down in significant amounts by gastric juices or microbes in the gut. This logic would also explain why horses living their life on red soils and red sands (i.e. high levels of iron oxide) remain healthy, even following centuries of evolution.

 

As a comparison, a typical cool season grass hay contains 194 ppm of iron on a dry matter basis. A horse consuming 15 lbs. of this 90% dry matter hay per day would have an intake of 1,189 mg of iron per day, compared to an insignificant 42 mg per day in Farrier’s Formula Double Strength. Add the likely fact that the iron oxide in Farrier’s Formula does not provide absorbable (bioavailable) iron, and forages do provide bioavailable iron, it is apparent that Farrier’s Formula Double Strength is not a significant source of iron to a horse.

 

Supplements that contain iron sulfate, chelated iron, or iron proteinates do provide absorbable iron – and usually too much of it. Iron proteinates are particularly disturbing – the intestinal wall is absorbing an amino acid but the iron is hitching a ride. Many equine supplements contain these ingredients.

 

Although adult horses typically have sufficient stores of iron, young growing horses often need additional iron. If iron supplementation is desirable a bio-available source of iron should be utilized. Blood testing for iron status (ferritin, iron binding capacity, etc.) and iron anemia (RBC, reticulocytes, MCV, hypochromasia, etc) can be performed. Of particular interest is that the mare is much like the sow in that iron does not pass the placental barrier readily. Many foals with iron deficiency  are from mares with normal to low normal blood levels of iron. This is the reason many newborn pigs and foals require supplemental iron.

 

Please reply – this subject is interesting. We have reduced the level of iron oxide in Life Data products due to consumer misunderstanding of our products. The iron oxide reduction in Life Data products does not have a nutritional impact on the horse. Also if you can provide me with the lot number of your Farrier’s Formula Double Strength, I would be happy to let you know whether you have the reduced iron oxide formula that we started producing in 2014.

 

Thanks for the inquiry! I am looking forward to hearing back from you.

 

Scott Gravlee, DVM, CNS

Equine Nutrition Consultant

Life Data Labs, Inc

Home - Life Data Labs USA

 



Jesse updated thyroid results

lj friedman
 

I had Cornell expand Jesse's thryoid test to show the most comprehensive that they have available. I didnt want to re-stick the horse to send to U of Mich.  


so. 

t4 baseline.. from first test    .090 ug/dL   1.0-3.0 reference

expanded testing results:

                               total T4   .090 ug/dL  1.0-3.0 reference

                               total T3    68.8 ng/dL  30-80 reference

                               free  T4    0.74 ng/dL   1.2-1.8 reference


Do we still think this is sick euthyroid?  This vet still wants to supplement the thyroid. ( I havent given him any direction just yet.  The Cornell labs show a possible interpretation that  list this as a possible secondary hypothyroidism.  any thoughts?  thanks


lj friedman ECHistory8

                



Re: Prevacox and pergolide

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

: rule out laminitis with nerve block testing,. Should I not do that and just do x rays?  or both?
= = = = = = = = =

Both.

Nerve blocks don't give you a diagnosis.  They only pin point the area where the pain is originating.  Radiographs can help uncover the cause of the pain.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Prevacox and pergolide

lj friedman
 

Thanks for the reply.   The vet coming out on thurs is supposed to be a foot specialist.. He  was first a farrier then became a vet. Should I get x rays?  I was going to do what Dr. Kellon suggested.: rule out laminitis with nerve block testing,. Should I not do that and just do x rays?  or both? thanks.. lj friedman san diego nov 2014. 


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