Date   

Re: High Ca Hay REV: Low Ca Hay

Sharon Manning
 

I got my new S/S hay tested and that will be what I have until mid May to June this year.

I have swung from Very high Ca to very low Ca hay. Interesting point to share considering the hay came from the same farm and field.....goes to show you that it has to be tested. I have Cal Carb on the shelf at 38% to supplement and it will be taking quite a lot to balance. Can others tell me what they use please that might require less volume? I did upload the new hay report in the CH and the link is below.

I have not had Blazes ACTH retested yet and hopefully will have it done the first of next week. We went from ice slide to mud slide off this hill.  I got the vet bill from the blood test before the other day and almost went into  $$ shock. But live and learn I guess.... hard to believe any vet would not be aware that extreme cold weather would effect insulin and Thyroid tests. I have also noticed many vets around here prefer Michigan state as to Cornell, so I guess I didn't have my guard up and let that slip by me. You have to ask and insist that Cornell be used and sometimes get and eye roll or grunt. Wonder why? Well, not important....

Blaze is about the same with the swollen lumpy sheath, maybe a little smaller on one side. His long curly winter coat is shedding at least so far. His feet seem fine.

I have gotten all the fencing required to put up a paddock for Blaze, so that's done, now to drive those posts into this East TN rock....... not a easy task.




Re: Teshan booked for trim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi K,

You are also welcome to discuss any foot issues for Zayfir on the ECHoof site as that is not restricted to ECIR horses alone:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/info

That Teshan was last trimmed at the end of January and was just done makes it about 6 weeks since her last trim. Even with it being your summer/fall season, there was quite a bit of excess growth evident for a barefoot horse who is not confined to a stall for most of her days. It would be great to see photos from before and current ones. They would help fill in several blanks in this conversation.

Although xrays would certainly give you the exact position of the bony column in relation to the hoof capsule, there are outward signs that give clues as well. There don't appear to be any major changes in the hoof wall angle growing in directly beneath the coronary band that would indicate serious rotation. What little angle change there may be could easily be attributed to strictly mechanical factors. Slight distal descent (aka sinking) is common over time but doesn't show up glaringly in the external hoof capsule. Sole depth is an unknown as there apeears to be too much un-exfoliated dead sole material present. Trimming to live sole plane would help in determining if this is a factor or not. With the feet being overgrown, the reference points that one uses to gauge these things have been buried so it makes it harder to determine. The repeated wrinkles present in the walls do attest to ongoing insults of some kind dating back at least a year so that is cause for concern.

As horses age, the cumulative effects of all things that haven't been or aren't "quite right" begin to add up. Diet deficiencies/excesses, conformational anomalies, disease processes, trim issues each contribute a piece to the overall effect, with the hooves many times being the "canary in the coal mine".

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Help with managing pain

Melanie Christensen
 

Hello,


I made a folder,  Melanie and Clyde,  and uploaded the 2 hay sampling results.   I am hoping I can get advice on how to balance out vitamins and minerals for him.


He is still sore and laying down and I removed his boots to feel for heat,  bounding pulse,  but none for either. It takes him a while to come from the haynet to the barn when I come out and the vet recommends previcox. However,  this isn't recommended.   How can I make him more comfortable?


I am doing his CH but it is taking a lot of time.   I also have xrays to upload from my phone and trying to figure that out.


Thank you for any help,  and if I have not done something properly on my folder,  please let me know.


Melanie and Clyde from Minnesota

2015


Re: Erratic behavior

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Rene',

>Recently he has had episodes where he becomes very scared and goes absolutely out of this world crazy.  He runs, panics, sweats, and even tries to jump out of his paddock.  This behavior is usually triggered by a minor event but not an event that justifies such a huge reaction.



How is his vision?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Can't delete file and replace

tara sullivan
 

Hi, Just trying to update Elf's ch.  Yahoo  won't let me delete the file and upload the revised.  So please help.
BTW-Elf is doing great.  I have to get some major weight off of him.  With the management changes made already he has lost maybe 10 lbs....so it's a good start.  He is feeling very good and playing with my gelding again.  I am quite relieved!
Thanks Tara
NEW York 2015

https://xa.yimg.com/df/echistory8/Tara+and+Elf.doc?token=DljBiFYowKtWImz-EelIZQwxJlVX3OMTQ0MdpfpfwrN-SI6IoZOFQVHeNwaRmOOASXlJbKg4Q3xZgi39JW-XxrshLoov36TNCioM0miagxNCw77OaU1hd80_ZGiEG-im0vYqRw&type=download


Re: Erratic behavior

Kerry Isherwood
 

I have two IR horses. One is 21 and early PPID, well-controlled. When her insulin spikes she is extremely depressed & lethargic. However, my 8yo gelding, who's also repeatedly documented severe IR when on pasture, manifests completely opposite symptoms when hyperinsulinemic: he becomes frantic w normal stimuli, constantly agitated, and frankly dangerous to handle. When he's extremely upset he begins to self-mutilate (biting his chest & sides until there's large welts). Its impossible for my vet, farrier, dentist, etc to work on him when his insulin is high. And forget riding--its just dangerous (hence my ER trip/concussion last Feb). However, when his insulin stabilizes (strict diet/off pasture) he is a lovely animal: ground ties for farrier, lets me draw blood/give vaccines by myself w/o even a halter on, is wonderful to ride, etc

It has taken me over four years to figure out wth was "wrong" with my gelding, why the Jekyll & Hyde routine, like an old dude ranch pony one day and a dangerous freakshow the next. Ive had exhaustive diagnostics done over the years trying to find an orthopedic reason, chiro, acupuncture, calming supps...you name it, Ive done it. It was only by a fluke chance after I joined this group for my mare and learned that lab "normals" for insulin are now considered too liberal that I realized my gelding was in fact IR (i run monthly bloodwork on my IR mare and decided to run my gelding's also, mostly on a hunch). His insulin during one of his worst crazed episodes this past fall--while on pasture--was 'only' 43uU/ml (or 'pretty good' as my regular local vet interpreted it to me). I thank the stars that i had joined this group by that time and knew otherwise. DDTE has finally 'cured' what ailment I'd been chasing for over four years.

It is not an exaggeration to say that this young horse would likely have been euthanized if I hadnt had the knowledge to recognize that a 43 insulin is not 'normal'. He is truly a dangerous animal to handle when in crisis. I bought him out of the killpen at New Holland as a 3yo. After all these years, I think I now know why he was there.

My point is hyperinsulinemia can present with very different clinical symptoms (ie, my mare vs my gelding). This group and its DDTE philosophy have literally saved both of my horses' lives. I am eternally grateful for this bastion of knowledge and the support of its members.

Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 2014
Tofurky Nov 2014


Re: Erratic behavior

kleonaptra@...
 

This is very like what my Teshan did last Winter. Im very interested to her more on this.
K
Western Sydney NSW Australia
Teshan 3/2/2015
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/search/photos?query=Teshan#zax/albums_629885947 (photo link)
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/ (CH link)


Re: Teshan booked for trim

kleonaptra@...
 

Hello Lorna,
 I have done so, thank you for reminding me. I have been planning to open a new conversation on Zayfir over there, no dramas mate.

Hello Nancy,
 My bad for language again - not specifically regulating ACTH but contributing to symptomatic factors

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/physiology-of-ppid-cushing-s-disease

While cortisol receives some "bad press" with PPID horses, it is responsible for a number of normal, healthy physiological responses. A cyclical change in cortisol levels occurs in normal unstressed horses throughout the day. Cortisol rises with fasting and sleeping, helping to maintain normal blood glucose. Cortisol secretion also jumps during exercise and as part of the flight response, liberating glucose for energy. Levels drop again when the exercise stops. Cortisol is an important regulator in the immune system. It directs key trace minerals into antioxidant enzyme systems (superoxide dismutase), protecting the tissues from the effects of bacterial endotoxins and inflammatory reactions. Cortisol also stimulates detoxification pathways in the liver. These are all normal and very beneficial effects of cortisol.

Is this why Teshan is such a freak? Is she engineering a flight response because it MAKES HER FEEL BETTER? I always knew she was smart and actively managed her own health, but these implications are mind blowing. (From Teshans notes)

I am working on the mare issues. Its simply not possible for me to get that info sorted quickly. I am beginning to believe that her retained placenta and resulting uterine infection are severely to blame or at least a largely contributing factor. As mentioned, she is booked for her blood tests to check insulin and glucose. From the difference between her original case history and her current one, you can see I am making changes. I knew making them quickly would not work on Teshan. She is putting up with me so far and not rebelling so I must be doing things at an acceptable rate. She really is capable of causing herself serious injury if she doesnt like how her routine is changed. So. I am changing things. As for feet out of balance, I can see that. About 2 weeks ago I knew they were ready but made the booking last week when I had the money and he wasnt able to come until this week. Her feet have changed rapidly in the last few weeks. She was last done at the end of January and they didnt look like this. It is the speed of the change that has quite literally, slapped me in the face. (Along with the things I have been reading here)

I am trying not to think anything at all until I have the blood test results back. All I can do is keep doing what I am doing - making changes and look after her as best I can.

Hello Lavinia,
 *Wry Grin* I do not expect my farrier to train my horses. Im a professional trainer. I merely appreciate that he is calm and patient since I have known literally hundreds of farriers and personally worked with a few dozen. The young, inexperienced but willing to learn is exactly what we are dealing with here. He is easily 10 to 15 years younger than me and quite terrified of offending me. He allayed a lot of my fears today. We spoke about Zayfir (I'll elaborate over on horsekeeping) but specifically on Teshan he had a lot to say - he claims he is experienced with laminitis trimming, said that previously there was inflammation in her feet but since being on pergolide it was much better. I will get up pics of her trim and you can tell me how he did. 

Basically Ive decided I have to start trimming again. I never had any problems when I did it myself and Teshan will need more constant and immediate attention. After I lost my gelding to a broken leg (He had a club foot) I lost my confidence in trimming, I believe I did a lot to contribute to that break, in management as well as trimming. Many people have told me it was a ticking time bomb I couldnt have stopped, but I'll never know. 
Thanks very much for your work on the pics. For most of her life, Teshan has done her own feet - such good hard hooves that the minute you think, those toes are a bit long, I better trim - she goes for a run on some hard ground and comes back looking like she's ready for the show ring. So Im still getting my head around her having foot trouble.
 I know its impossible to KNOW without Xrays, but do you think she's starting to rotate? The way I was trained, I would have to behave as if she was, with feet that look like this. I actually took pics of her feet when I first joined but considered they werent good enough to post, would you like to see those? I swear her hooves were not this bad three weeks ago.
Thank you all so much for taking time to reply and putting up with me...Ive become one of those sour old horse gals whose set in my ways...Despite my best efforts.
K
Western Sydney NSW Australia
Teshan 3/2/2015
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/search/photos?query=Teshan#zax/albums_629885947 (photo link)
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/ (CH link)


Re: Acth time to re-test?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi LJ,

Glad the vet thought he was doing relatively well. Would be interested to see what changes he made to the feet. Also good that you were able to get Jesse's minerals ordered.

Whenever it is convenient to schedule the appointment, from mid-April to mid-May, is fine.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>


 ECHistory8

 


Acth time to re-test?

lj friedman
 

Jesse had. a good vet exam today. Feet were in such good shape for a 24 yr old former hunter jumper  with Cushings and severe IR ( via the calculator) that the vet said xrays and other tests werent indicated. He did a trim on him as he is also a faririer. Today, I placed a horsetech order. 

It was suggested here to retest for ATCH Apri/May and increase pergolide if #;s arent low to mid 20's. Jesse was a bit out of range at 40.7  on 1 mg prascend  (ref  9-35) My question? Can someone zoom in and give a  best date to test?  ie  April 30 , or May 31, etc..?    Then, retest August for the seasonal rise in So. Cal. 


lj friedman san diego nov 2014




 ECHistory8

 


Re: VERY high ACTH for Magic???

ferne fedeli
 

It is possible, I guess.  I always only order 30 days at a time and keep it on the refrigerator door.  I use Thriving Pets and have used them for years.  I know some people prefer another pharmacy in Arizona or somewhere.  I suppose I could change pharmacies...
Ferne Fedeli

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 10:55 AM, sally.stork@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Sounds like your pergolide is no good--heated up?,old?,degraded? Maybe switch to another form/source.

Sally, Elkton,MD since 2009.



Re: Erratic behavior

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


You're not the first person to question whether extreme changes in behavior might be related to undiagnosed PPID. There are no formal studies to confirm this.  One explanation could be pressure from hypertrophied pituitary on the optic nerve that interferes with the horse's vision.  There are probably other explanations as well.

The first step with this horse is the first D of DDT. Get blood work.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.comEC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Erratic behavior

ReneR
 

I have a gelding in my boarding stable that may have early signs of Cushings.  I am in conversation with the owner about testing him.  In the meatime, I am caring for him as though he is.  Except, that he is not on Pergolide yet. 

This gelding has always been an easy horse for turn out, alone or with other horses.  He has always been calm, smart, and rather no-nonsense.  In fact, I used him to teach babies good social skills after weaning.  He was a terrific teacher.

Recently he has had episodes where he becomes very scared and goes absolutely out of this world crazy.  He runs, panics, sweats, and even tries to jump out of his paddock.  This behavior is usually triggered by a minor event but not an event that justifies such a huge reaction.


Here is my Question:

Have you had similar behavior with any other horses in the early stages of Cushings?


The other symptoms he is showing are: unusual sweating, swollen sheath, poor coat that is slow to shed.  Last year he was the last horse to shed out but finally did shed out by late June.  He is also a very easy keeper.  In the 6 years he has been in my barn I have fed him like an IR horse.  I suspect if fed differently he would test positive IR.


Thank you for your input,

Rene' Riddle

Texas

2008


Re: VERY high ACTH for Magic???

ferne fedeli
 

Thanks so much, Dr. Kellon!  I thought that maybe we could ask them to redo the test...  I will forward your reply to my vet for her info.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 11:21 AM, drkellon@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

See if your vet's office can get them to rerun the test for no fee.  It just doesn't fit with him feeling so well and the insulin much lower than in September.  They should explain to the lab that the horse has no symptoms, is on treatment and was 26 in September!

It could be bad pergolide but doesn't make sense with the rest of the picture unless the pituitary has shifted to high output of a form of ACTH that is not biologically active.  I can't recall any instances  where labs have suggested that happened but I guess it's possible.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com

www.drkellon.com
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Re: Teshan booked for trim

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi K,

 "She is quite desperate to not put any weight on her off hind. Im finding this very suspicious, as that is the stallion's sore bit too."
>>>Thanks for clarifying. As we were discussing hoof issues, from this, it sounded like they were both having off-hind, foot-related issues.

Hoof form will impact every part of the body over time as issues with the mechanics travel from the hoof, up the leg and continue to spread as more and more structures take on roles they are not designed to carry. The old adage "No Hoof, No Horse" is sage advice.

Ridges (events) in the hoof are signals of a change of some kind, whether it be from mechanics, laminitis, external insults, dietary issues, disease or a combination of these factors and can be good, bad or neutral. While I agree whole-heartedly that a hoof care professional should have patience and treat each horse as an individual, it is not the trimmer's job to train the horse to allow its feet to be worked on. Your primary criteria for a hoof care pro should be to have someone who can do the actual trimming correctly. If you find someone who is inexperienced but willing to learn, then that can also work.

The hoof capsules are too long overall, with toes that are quite run forward and high heels. This is the definition of being overdue - a date on the calendar is an arbitrary mark that we make based on assumptions of how long it "should take" for the hoof to grow beyond a healthy, functional stage. The horse/ hoof doesn't look at the calendar - only we do. Once hooves start to become overgrown, the toes take on a life of their own and run forward at an ever-increasing pace, dragging the un-exfoliated dead sole and heels along with them, distorting the familiar landmarks used to determine the correct proportions. It is like a runaway freight train on a slope, picking up speed the further it travels. The trimmer needs to apply the brakes to the train. In order to do that, s/he needs to find the now-buried landmarks so the trim realigns the hoof capsule around the true points rather than their ghosts.

I've added a couple of mark-ups to your album to give you and idea where these feet need to go. Sorry, don't know where Neo is going to put them in the line-up.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/629885947

RF Lateral: The green line is an idea of how much extra foot there is overall - may actually be more. The yellow lines highlight how there are imbalances in the wall length that are pushing the coronary band into an arched shape instead of a straight line. The underrun heels are also contributing to this.

RF lateral skewed: I manipulated the photo to give an idea of what the hoof should actually look like when shortened, toes backed and heels lowered.

These are not difficult fixes and would go a long way toward keeping Teshan sound and comfortable. Add in PPID and IR control and your girl should be happy for a long time to come.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: UPDATE on PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease.

corrine haffner
 

Thank you Dr kellon, think i'll hold off on vaccinating until he's 100% back to normal,every spring his reaction is a little worse. Will be talking to new vet about it here when i make appt for Xrays of front hooves.

Thanks again,
Corrine and Jasper
in minnesota 4/2014





Re: VERY high ACTH for Magic???

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

See if your vet's office can get them to rerun the test for no fee.  It just doesn't fit with him feeling so well and the insulin much lower than in September.  They should explain to the lab that the horse has no symptoms, is on treatment and was 26 in September!

It could be bad pergolide but doesn't make sense with the rest of the picture unless the pituitary has shifted to high output of a form of ACTH that is not biologically active.  I can't recall any instances  where labs have suggested that happened but I guess it's possible.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com


Re: UPDATE on PPID 11 year old gelding with lyme dease.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

 So thinking the aloe is keeping ulcers from being an issue.??  

Yes, also the Jiaogulan prevents ulcer formation and the glutamine enhances healing.
= = = = = = = === = 

So i'am a bit leery of giving these shots again this spring,do i just skip doing spring shots?? Is that even a smart idea??

Vaccination decisions have to be made with your attending vet.  I can tell you that stressed or ill horses should not be vaccinated.  When horses have a history of severe vaccine reactions, the usual course is to skip those that are for non life-threatening conditions like flu and rhino, give others according to risk of exposure realizing that risk will never be zero but risk of severe reaction is much higher.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Re: VERY high ACTH for Magic???

sally.stork
 

Sounds like your pergolide is no good--heated up?,old?,degraded? Maybe switch to another form/source.
Sally, Elkton,MD since 2009.


VERY high ACTH for Magic???

ferne fedeli
 

I just realized that I didn't update his history with the new info.  ACTH was 697, Insulin was 46.98 and Leptin was 2.1.  From Cornell.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

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