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AAKG experiences & Hyaluronic Acid question
Stephanie Stout
Hello All, I have 2 questions, so hopefully it's okay to ask them both on the same message. 1) I've been looking into AAKG. I saw Dr. Kellon's file on it, and looked at previous messages too as I'm trying to learn about it. Is it ideal to combine it with J-herb? Does anyone have any experiences to share about it(does it help foot comfort?)? Just confirming - AAKG is safe to combine with J-herb to feed at the same time? 2) I am confirming that pure H/A (from mybesthorse.com) is safe for an IR/PPID horse on J-herb, and possibly AAKG? Can I put the H/A powder on r/s/r beet pulp and feed it that way? Thanks all! Stephanie & King Oregon Oct 2014 (CH is currently lost in space)
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Re: Jaiogulan and ERU
mywisky@...
Thank you Lavinia, yes my vet has said this about Wisky, he is prone at times with itchy watery eye that we treat with terramycin ointment. Fly masks won't work for him as he rubs anything in site even the other horses & the fence posts.
Darlene/Pa 2/2015 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Darlene%20and%20Wisky/
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Re: Jaiogulan and ERU
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Darlene,
Equine Recurrent Uveitis, otherwise known as Moon Blindness. Very common in Appaloosas. http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/eye_and_ear/equine_recurrent_uveitis/overview_of_equine_recurrent_uveitis.html Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team
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Re: Jaiogulan and ERU
mywisky@...
What is ERU? What are the symptoms? I can't find a reference to it.
Thanks, Darlene/Pa 2/2015 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Darlene%20and%20Wisky/
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Re: ACTH. when to act on the result
Hi lj
Need links to the exact conversations. Every horse and situation is different. Recommend rechecking with your new vet/farrrier. While awaiting blood work, monitor symptoms as outlined here. (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988 Would love to see new pics of the feet. Here's how to get good photos. It takes practice but can be done by yourself and worth the investment of time for the education. Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
Nancy C in NH
---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote : Jesse tested 40 on Cornell labs.
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Re: New Study
Hi Lj
See Dr Kellon's 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference Proceedings on Diagnosis at the link below my signature for description of all tests. ACTH is recommended by the ECIR group. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 FACT: Insulin resistance (IR) is the failure of insulin sensitive cells to respond to “normal” levels of insulin. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote : I'm wondering why the recent talk of TRH stim testing. It wasnt one of the tests I was told to get. Am I missing something? lj friedman san diego nov 2014 ECHistory8
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ACTH. when to act on the result
lj friedman
Jesse tested 40 on Cornell labs. (I dont have access to labs or reference ranges but it was a bit higher than would have been liked. It was suggested that I re-ACTH test him in May and increase prascend if levels arent in the low to mid 20's then re test August for the seasonal rise. Jesse has been on 1mg of prascend since Jan 02,2015. I read another post to another member, where it was suggested to increase dose now. then re-test . Should my plan change, ie perhaps increasing to 1.5 mg now? thanks.. lj friedman san diego
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Re: New Study
lj friedman
I'm wondering why the recent talk of TRH stim testing. It wasnt one of the tests I was told to get. Am I missing something? lj friedman san diego nov 2014
ECHistory8
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Re: New Study
Just to clarify a bit here, "fed" horses were also fasted for 12 hours, then fed 3 kg of alfalfa, tested 2 hours after feeding. Studies like this are very helpful, but also limited. The conclusion here is that in 8 to 10 year old normal horses, feeding after a 12 hour fast may result in false positives on TRH stimulation when tested 2 hours after feeding. It can't tell us what to expect under other circumstances but does show that fasting and refeeding has the potential to influence results. Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Katie questions
Judy Slayton
Hi everyone, Lavina and Nancy-thank you so much for all your help. It has helped me focus my mind a bit. No- have not tested for Lyme. Not an issue in my area, no ticks, fleas or Mosquitos, just snakes and concrete ground. My piece of the desert is hard dg and rock, not sand. Curious if anyone else has had the symptom of hiccup and drooling? That was how it started with us in 05 and after a lot of drooling-she feels better. It's always bugged me as the hiccup without drooling started so young at age 3. I guess I just need to know does this mean if she were a person it's possible she would have been a type 1 diabetic? They should have left her on the range, probably none of this would have happened. I have printed the most recent metformin info and plan to show the vet tomorrow. I know I have never had a normal insulin. She was doing so well that I opted to treat the horse not the numbers as it was tough enough convincing the vet on the prascend dosage. I am looking for a new trimmer and hubby and I are now watching the 10 cd set in the hopes of learning to do them ourselves or at least hire the right people. Not an easy task. Lots of farriers but few trimmers around here. Mine are wonderful people who have helped us a lot but perhaps we've hit the depth of their experience and need fresh eyes. I have posted photos today of her hooves and the crud on face and puffiness. If anyone has time to do new markups for me-it would be much appreciated. We were able to soak her today, less Velcro foot and do a bit of filing. Vet tomorrow morning for ACTH and insulin. At least, she will not be going to the bridge tomorrow. Warm, Sunny morning and she and I! Feel a bit better today. Thanks to everyone for the support, this is hard especially when I thought I had a handle on everything. Most of my friends think Katie should have been put down many years ago. Best, Judy&Katie
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Re: Alfalfa Hay/Gleeming Coats with Dapples
As far as I know there is no research saying IR/PPID horses should be fed alfalfa. Anyone claiming that should be asked to produce the research. Apples and shine are good but no guarantee that the diet is balanced. Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: New Study
Since that post I have had a chance to review the entire article.
Time of day of sampling makes no difference in baseline ACTH or ACTH after TRH stimulation.
Season (fall) can result in false positive ACTH stimulation by TRH.
Fed versus fasting (fasted 12 hours) had a higher baseline ACTH result but both were actually within normal limits.
Fed versus fasted ACTH response to TRH can produce an abnormally high ACTH response in fed horses but this is in horses fasted for 12 hours before they are fed (meal of 3 kg alfalfa).
This data is from horses 8 to 10 years
old so may not apply to older horses or horses that actually have PPID.
Bottom line IMO is that testing for both ACTH and IR should be done with horses having constant access to low sugar/starch hay from night before and day of testing.
www.drkellon.com
EC co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: Alfalfa Hay/Gleeming Coats with Dapples
Kerry Isherwood
I can definitely vouch for not relying on dapples as an indicator of IR/PPID health: my heavy, drafty mare always has gorgeous dapples even during her worst insulin crises. My svelte IR gelding is always much leaner than the typical obese IR body-type and sports dapples much of the year. And while I'd like to believe dapples are a badge of honor owing to my exemplary husbandry, in reality im just flailing in the dark like all the rest of us anxious IR/PPID horsekeeppers.
Dappled in NY, Kerry
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Prascend Experiences and Reporting to the FDA
*** Prascend Experiences Information on how to contact the FDA may be found here.
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How to find things in the ECIR Group. Save this post.
We have a lot of new members. Learning to navigate Yahoo, especially NEO, takes a bit of work. Once you have it though, the resource is invaluable. If you are trying to find a particular file or topic discussion, and having trouble, please speak up. You are not alone and by asking you will help others. There’s so much info here, the links below can help you negotiate the learning curve and find background to questions and issues: ** DDT+E - Diagnosis, Diet, Trim plus Exercise - What is it? Once at the above page, click on the list to the left for even more detail. ****START HERE folder. Similar to above but also has other great files. including how to start a Case History. ** What blood testing do I need for diagnosis? ** How to get help with Mineral Balancing ** How to search the FILES sections for documents with NEO. You must be a member to do this. Go to the FILES section via the web page At the top of your browser window, look for the SEARCH FILES WINDOW and enter your search word(s). Try Diagnosis, for example. All docs with diagnosis in them will appear. In this case DDT Diagnosis, diagnosing Insulin Resistance, IR Pony Field Study, Low Dose Dex test and more all came up. Click on the Topic heading to open the document. ** Archived Messages - How to Search this treasure trove of information and history in the NEW NEO format ** Current Case History filing cabinet accepting new member info. You must join this History group just like you did in the main ECIR Yahoo group. Links to ALL Case History Sites (Scroll down to Links to ECIR History Sites.pdf) ***What you need to do to get hoof help. How to get good pictures. Like us on Facebook! *** Donate to the ECIR Group Inc. nonprofit! Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Yahoo group REMEMBER: If you get an error message when clicking on a link or tiny URL, check your BROWSER WINDOW and remove “pets.” from the URL. You may also need to clean your Cache/history. We know this is an extra step when you are in high anxiety. Hang in there. It gets easier. If you are lost, speak up.
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Re: New Study
Since that post I have had a chance to
review the entire article.
Time of day of sampling makes no difference in baseline ACTH or ACTH after TRH stimulation.
Season (fall) can result in false positive ACTH stimulation by TRH.
Fed versus fasting (fasted 12 hours) had a higher baseline ACTH result but both were actually within normal limits.
Fed versus fasted ACTH response to TRH can produce an abnormally high ACTH response in fed horses but this is in horses fasted for 12 hours before they are fed (meal of 3 kg alfalfa).
This data is from horses 8 to 10 years old so may not apply to older horses.
Bottom line IMO is that testing for both ACTH and IR should be done with horses having constant access to low sugar/starch hay from night before and day of testing.
www.drkellon.com
EC co-owner Feb 2001
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Alfalfa Hay/Gleeming Coats with Dapples
Larks Tabatha
Hello... My friend, with a Cushings horse, just emailed me the following after talking with a new acquaintance that she felt was a knowledgeable horse person: "I didn't realize that the new research has On another subject, I am also curious if this group would consider it a good thing for an IR horse to have a super shiny coat with dapples. Does this indicate that their diet is well balanced and that they are in good health... or not necessarily? Thanks very much, Sally in N. AZ April 2013
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Gastrogard safe for IR / PPIDs?
Kerry Isherwood
Hi group,
My IR/PPID mare is doing very well on 1.5mg Prascend/day. Insulin is behaving and she feels great under tack. I am finally starting to believe we may be able to compete again this year. My current perplexion is regarding her ongoing refusal to eat anything other than ODTB cubes and some ab lib analyzed long-stem hay. Ever since I tried pergolide tabs in a hollowed out carrot (10/14) she has been disgusted by the very sight of me and will not even eat a ODTB cube out of my hand--however, if I place the same cube on the ground or bucket, she makes no hesitation to consume it. She won't even take treats from other people. In her mind, all humans are now out to poison her. So the current problem is that I cannot get the recommended flax/Vit E/salt into her. I've tried every safe carrier possible and all has been refused, even soaked ODTB cubes. As it is, I'm lucky if I can catch her easily just to syringe the dissolved pergolide once a day. She did experience the classic "veil" where her appetite severely declined even for hay but returned reliably within two days after each perg bump up. This ongoing fussiness is not veil-associated, her dose is appropriate, and she has not had a dose increase in several months. I'm wondering if a course of GastroGard is permissible for an IR/PPID, now that she's relatively stable. I'd like to rule-out ulcers and then try maintaining on APF, which I have not used before. This is not a horse that I would consider ever be predisposed to ulcers, as she's mellow to the extreme and doesn't get ruffled over antything, but b/c much is unknown about pergolide as well as this very atypical anorexia for her I'd like to rule ulcers out. (Interestingly, Pinky was seen by a DVM chiro/acu specialist this week (first time he'd worked on her) and without knowing anything about her diet, mentioned that she seems to be having issues with her digestion--now, don't get me wrong, I'm the last one to be swept away be hocus-pocus shakras and blocked qi but the coincidence was startling). My CH is not up to date but her current diet is: 15-lbs ODTB cubes/day free choice 5%ESC+starch grass hay strict dry-lot moderate exercise 5days/week (30mins/day jumping, fitness work, hills, free-longeing) Prascend 1.5mg/day via dose syringe body condition ~6 but just starting to leg up Obviously I can give electrolyte paste after working (for salt) and its easy enough to give liquid Vit E via syringe but I'm more concerned as to why the inappetance for safe foods she's previously loved (Chaffhaye, Alfa-lox, alfalfa pellets & cubes, etc), if there's any anecdotal evidence of pergolide causing ulcers, and is GastroGard considered safe for stable IR/PPID animals. I realize this situation isn't really a 'problem' considering what others are going through, but any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kerry in NY Pinky Sept 2014 Tofurky Nov 2014
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Re: Insulin:Glucose ratio
The VA Polytechic pony study gives us guidelines on normal insulins for horses on pasture:
Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance
Variations by few points shouldn't cause any concern if the horse has no symptoms. It's important to realize that normal insulin depends on the diet. If on constant intake of pasture or hay only, that's one thing. If within a few hours of a grain meal, that's something else entirely for what is "normal". Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner Feb 2001 -
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MESSAGE POSTING ETIQUETTE - KEEPING ECIR USER FRIENDLY
ThePitchforkPrincess@...
This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the guidelines below:
1) Sign your posts with your first name, location, the date you joined. When asking for advice, provide a link to your case history or photos. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses to questions and suggestions for local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. Limit your signature to 3 or 4 lines.
2) Delete all but the part of the message you're replying to before posting. Classic Yahoo users: Keep who is saying what clear by leaving the chevrons (>) in front of the text you are answering then type your response in a new paragraph below. Neo users: click on the words "Show Message History" (located in the lower right corner of the reply box) and erase the text that appears below it.
3) Change the subject line when threads take off in new directions indicate the topic . For example: NOW: New Subject (was Old Subject).
4) Don't re-post messages if they don't immediately appear on the group or go unanswered. Be patient, a lack of response is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed. Allow roughly 48 hours before re-posting with the words "2nd Post" in the subject line and simply provide the original message's number.
5) Off-topic but horse-related discussions: Our sister group ECHorsekeeping provides a place to discuss issues involving non-metabolic horses, general horse keeping practices, lameness, other equine health issues, alternative therapies and equine related philosophical debates.
THE ECIR GROUPS:
For a complete list of our all our sister groups see the ECIR Files Table of Contents
***WARNING*** Solicitation is against list policy. If contacted privately by someone selling a product or service, be suspicious. These mails frequently target new members or those in a crisis. Often the product or service will not hold up to close examination. It could be harmless but also could be unsafe. Any suggested supplement, treatment, hoof care approach, etc, should be posted on the list so that everyone can benefit from list feedback. If you receive an e-mail selling something, either post to the group to ask about it, or forward the mail to EquineCushings-owner@ yahoogroups.com
PROTECTING YOUR PRIVACY Yahoo uses "Web Beacons" similar to cookies to track Yahoo Group users. If you would like to be removed from Yahoo's analytics services, opt out here: https://info.yahoo.com/ privacy/us/yahoo/opt_out/ targeting/details.html
Thank you for your cooperation.
Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List
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