Date   

Seasonal variations dopamine, cortisol and serotonin

beverly meyer
 

I found this study extremely interesting, but it doesn't match "seasonal rise" as I understand it.

Blood samples from March, June, September and December were compared for a Cushings group and a Control group.

Findings:  

Cortisol was the same in both groups, except higher in June in the Cushings group

Dopamine was the same in March and December in both groups, but notably lower in Cushings group in June and September.

Serotonin was erratic in both groups, but lower in Cushings group in June.

Both groups had similar melatonin patterns.

So JUNE was the peak month for high Cortisol and the low month for Serotonin. Dopamine was low in June and December.  June gets the worst marks all around, not September.

Can Dr. Kellon comment?  I understood PPID was an issue late summer, fall and early winter, but not high summer (June).

Also, have we discussed management support of low Serotonin, or does pergolide theoretically manage that?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658710/

Thanks,

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas



Re: Mov-ease

Melanie Christensen
 

Hi,

I don't mean to take over your question.   I am using J-Herb and AlCaR for about 2 weeks.   Could someone advise what is the difference between Mov-Ease,  and PhytoQuench,  and J-Herb?   Do they all contain some sort of pain reliever?

Clyde is still tender and he is getting regular trimmings.   Just wondering if I should keep on with the J-Herb?

Could Mov-Ease be used as an arthritis or joint supplement?

Many thanks,
Melanie & Clyde, Minnesota
January 2015


Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Sherry Morse
 

If she's had her teeth done on a regular basis and is suddenly no longer maintaining weight
I'd start with general bloodwork to make sure there's nothing else going on.  Since you moved and she then lost weight there's always the chance she's not getting enough nutrition from the Coastal/Texas grass as she was on the Minn hay/grass combination.

Has she had any definite indications of IR (fat pads, cresty neck) or was she always just 'an easy keeper' - without testing you really don't know for sure what you're dealing with.

I'm not sure where bloodwork would go for Texas but if you tested her for thyroid as well as glucose, insulin, leptin and ACTH (at Cornell that's one of the panels offered) you'd cover all the bases for PPID/IR and Thyroid.

Somebody else with more experience will probably have better advice :-)
Sherry in PA


From: "insidiousglamour@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:17 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

 
Several years back my mare was very overweight and out of shape. It seemed like she was getting fat on air, and while she lost some of the weight with regular exercise we couldn't quite get her where we wanted. My vet ended up putting her on thyro-L, which she stayed on for several years. He suspected IR but felt the blood test had too high of a rate of inaccuracy to be worth it, and I declined the much more involved/more accurate test. She was on a very small dose (half scoop) and that seemed to level everything out. She also got grass hay 2-3x/day, 4 hours of grass time in the spring/summer/fall (drylot the rest of the time), and soaked beet pulp with a grass balancer.

This was all in Minnesota, where the grass can be very rich and we were feeding good quality grass hay, occasionally with a small percentage of alfalfa. When on round bales she seemed to self regulate fairly well.

We moved down to Texas last fall. She lost a little weight in the move and it's taken time figuring out how to put it back on. I ended up taking her off of the thyro-L about a month ago - no change in energy, and she's started to muscle back up a little.  She is on coastal hay, 2x/day, and is now getting the Nutrena low starch formula grain as the place I was getting grain from stopped carrying the grass balancer with any regularity. She is on pasture here as they don't have dry lots where I board, and out for 8 hours/day (stalled the rest of the time).

Now, I bought a muzzle for her for the spring grass, but she really hasn't gained much weight being on the grass all day so I haven't had them put it on for turnout.

I have been thinking about doing the IR test with the karo syrup (per my vet's recommendation), as he said this is considered pretty accurate? She doesn't seem to have any symptoms of IR any longer, but it has taken some time to put this weight back on and this is a horse that up until 6-12 months ago, I would have never imagined I'd be trying to put weight ON her. She is 13 this year and we've been battling fat kid status since she was 4-5.

Basically, I don't want to have her out on grass without a muzzle if we're risking laminitis. She's never had a laminitic episode and I would like to keep it that way!

From what I've read online a lot of places just recommend testing glucose, insulin, and leptin?

Thanks all,
Jessi





Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Jessica
 

Several years back my mare was very overweight and out of shape. It seemed like she was getting fat on air, and while she lost some of the weight with regular exercise we couldn't quite get her where we wanted. My vet ended up putting her on thyro-L, which she stayed on for several years. He suspected IR but felt the blood test had too high of a rate of inaccuracy to be worth it, and I declined the much more involved/more accurate test. She was on a very small dose (half scoop) and that seemed to level everything out. She also got grass hay 2-3x/day, 4 hours of grass time in the spring/summer/fall (drylot the rest of the time), and soaked beet pulp with a grass balancer.


This was all in Minnesota, where the grass can be very rich and we were feeding good quality grass hay, occasionally with a small percentage of alfalfa. When on round bales she seemed to self regulate fairly well.


We moved down to Texas last fall. She lost a little weight in the move and it's taken time figuring out how to put it back on. I ended up taking her off of the thyro-L about a month ago - no change in energy, and she's started to muscle back up a little.  She is on coastal hay, 2x/day, and is now getting the Nutrena low starch formula grain as the place I was getting grain from stopped carrying the grass balancer with any regularity. She is on pasture here as they don't have dry lots where I board, and out for 8 hours/day (stalled the rest of the time).


Now, I bought a muzzle for her for the spring grass, but she really hasn't gained much weight being on the grass all day so I haven't had them put it on for turnout.


I have been thinking about doing the IR test with the karo syrup (per my vet's recommendation), as he said this is considered pretty accurate? She doesn't seem to have any symptoms of IR any longer, but it has taken some time to put this weight back on and this is a horse that up until 6-12 months ago, I would have never imagined I'd be trying to put weight ON her. She is 13 this year and we've been battling fat kid status since she was 4-5.


Basically, I don't want to have her out on grass without a muzzle if we're risking laminitis. She's never had a laminitic episode and I would like to keep it that way!


From what I've read online a lot of places just recommend testing glucose, insulin, and leptin?


Thanks all,

Jessi




Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

takarri@...
 

-In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote :

>>The only information we have so far is that it is linked to oxidative stress in the brain. In people, this type of damage is often caused by high mineral levels, iron or manganese.<<

This conversation is a couple of years old and I was just wondering if there is any update on this please. I am trying to understand why so many horses have this disease. Do horses in the wild suffer from PPID or is it confined to domestic horses and is, therefore, "manmade" due to our feeding practices???


 Hi Sarah, Sorry not Dr Kellon, but I’ll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Good questions by the way. PPID is not man made or due to our feeding practices.  The reason we are seeing more horses diagnosed with PPID is that they are living longer due to better management practices and more vets are aware of the syndrome and testing.  PPID is a benign tumour of the pituitary gland; it can’t be “manufactured”   However things like oxidative stress can contribute to the manifestation.

As far as I’m aware no testing has been done of horses in the wild for PPID, There would be no funding for it and I’m guessing due to nature and natural selection, they may not live long enough.   If you want to get to the nuts and bolts of PPID may I suggest you enrol in one of Dr Ks’ courses http://www.drkellon.com/coursedescriptions/cushingsir.html, based on factual up to date information. The beauty of these courses is that once you have paid for the initial course you can audit them time and time again for no charge.  Note: I have no alliance or financial gain from recommending these courses.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas



Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

newuser1971@...
 

>>The only information we have so far is that it is linked to oxidative stress in the brain. In people, this type of damage is often caused by high mineral levels, iron or manganese.<<


This conversation is a couple of years old and I was just wondering if there is any update on this please. I am trying to understand why so many horses have this disease. Do horses in the wild suffer from PPID or is it confined to domestic horses and is, therefore, "manmade" due to our feeding practices???


Re: Cornell labs results for Poppy

Susanna Armbruster
 

Aahhhhh, now I see about the posting and snippet -- got it! Makes sense now. :-)
RE: soaking for more than an hour in cold water. Good new info to have -- I'll adjust my soaking times. I already feel guilty using so much water to soak (what do the folks in CA do??). I will find the posting about the "quick way to test" that I wrote before -- may have been for ph level and not iron. However, my best friend's husband is a plumber and has already tested our water and if I can't find those results, he'll test again for us.
Chris at Dairy One found my hay sample and has resubmitted it to have the selenium tested -- good suggestion on that!

I love the NoseIt toy -- gonna have to get one for pony!

Thank you!

Susanna
Red Hook, NY
March 2015
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Poppy%20Seed%20and%20Susanna/


CTB for slow spring shedding

macivor@...
 

I cannot load the CTB database and when I do a conversation search I get 1000 messages.  Help!  If you can give me better words for searching, that works!  Or a different way to get to the CTB database besides tinyurl.com/brch7sp or search on CTB dababase, that is great. 


I would like to use CTB for slow shedding of my PPID horse. He is on Prascend. 

 

Which form of CTB is best?  Liquid or powder? 

Is any liquid or any powder OK.  If not, what attributes I should look for?


Should CTB be given year round or just during winter shedding? 


Should it be tapered off if D/C?.


I understand to start with 1 oz and increase after 2 weeks if shedding is not improved.  How much should I increase and how much is too much?


If CTB should not be given with pergolide because the interaction is unknown, then how far apart should each be given?  


Thanks!!

casey oregon 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Casey%20and%20Starfire/




Re: 12 Year old PPID IR gelding ( Questions ) # 2

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

10 bales will last just over 4 months they are 1000 lb bales one last 2 weeks feeding 3 horses. He was doing some what better when i had square bales with no alfalfa in them. The squares are gone, and guy i bought them from is out of hay now,called him last night. 

Him getting fresh grass is fixed he can no longer get to it, hot wired off that section of corral. I'v been on the picky eaters file. What works one day fails the next,i'v got more kinds of feed in my feed room then most feed stores HA HA.   Have 10 bags of the stabul 1 have banana flavored and fenugreek flavored one also the original one. My other 2 pigs eat anything. 

Been just adding a few pellets of the Lung EQ  to what he'll eat that day works,but next day he wont touch anything,he's sure i'am trying to kill him. Tried soaking hay for 30 minutes in hot water,dump water out then rinse it real good then feed it.Not sure that will help but worth a try more work but i'll do what needs done if it helps him. I even spent time picking alfalfa out of the hay this morning before i soaked it...

Been syringing supplements in him on his not eat anything days. He has quit shedding his winter coat so i'am a bit concerned about that. Other 2 horses are still shedding like mad,but jasper has stopped shedding 4 days ago,no winter coat coming off now. 

Will make Xray appointment today its on my list of things to do here. I know his trim is a big part of his problem,toes are to long and heels are also to long. Got a vicious cycle going on, i'am not confident in my ability to trim him,so have farrier doing him. I show her markups but seems like she fails to do whats needed,i feel i can't tell her how to do her job. She''ll take heels back some but not to where they belong,same with toes. Doesn't help jasper isn't wanting to stand on three legs and keeps pulling away. 

So my frustrations are at the top with everything feed,feet and farrier.Sorry for the long post. Thank you for your much needed help. :)

Corrine and Jasper
MN 4/2014




Re: U-Balance Foundation pelleted vitamin/mineral from Uckele

Melanie Christensen
 

Hi Cass,

I use the 1/2 dose of U-Balance Foundation as well.  It is used for balancing the minerals and vitamins in my hay.

A nutritionalist from Uckele suggest the SportHorse formulation,  but I am not sure if an IR horse can eat this, and I want to stick with Dr. Kellon's recommendations.

I will hand feed a bit at a time.   I did read the link Lavinia gave me on introducing new feeds and supplements:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/

This helped a lot and gave me the reminder that I need to slow down and take baby steps (sometimes backward steps!) and that Clyde is doing a million times better than he was 2 months ago.

This group is amazing!

Thank you!
Melanie & Clyde,  Minnesota
January 2015

 

 


Re: 12 Year old PPID IR gelding ( Questions ) # 2

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Yes, the hay could certainly be an issue as there is no way to know what the s/s is without testing. Soaking will help but will it help enough is unknown. Many horses have problems with alfalfa so that could also be part of the issue. How long will those 10 bales last?

The body soreness is likely because he is foot sore and compensating for that is causing muscles everywhere to tense and tighten. Crabby would also follow. Yes, access to new growth grass could be another factor.

Trim is still high on the list for foot soreness so getting the xrays done would be extremely helpful.

I totally understand your frustration with his not eating anything willingly but his hay - have one like that myself.  He regularly decides everything (but his hay) is poison and not fit for consumption. When all else fails, I syringe things in for a while until he accepts a carrier again. Nuzu Stabul 1, both the banana and fenugreek, work fairly well. ODTB cubes are another option I use regularly. Look at the Picky Eaters Checklist and Introducing New Feeds and Supplements in this file for more ideas:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: U-Balance Foundation pelleted vitamin/mineral from Uckele

 

Hi, Melanie. I'm not sure exactly which U-Balance Foundation you're using. I'm using one-half the labeled dose of U-Balance Foundation as a basis for mineral balancing one IR mare's diet. I've had two different batches. The latest within the past month is a green pellet that smells like molasses flavoring. When they are wet, they do smell like vitamins (think children's liquid vitamins), but, again, my mares don't object. The December pellets were cream to white.  My trimmer said his mares wouldn't touch the creamy white pellets, but I doubt he tried to ease them into it. My mares ate them out of my hand.

Because I need to tweak the formula to balance my tested hay, I do add small amounts of minerals to get the ratios where I want them. I use both ground flax and a carrier, either softened ODTBC or Nuzu Stabul 1. 

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory6/files/CBB%20for%20Sassy%26%2339%3Bs%20S-NorCal/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <esp_christensen@...> wrote :


Is anyone using the above vitamin/mineral?   <snip>


Does anyone have any home made remedies to try and cover this smell?   I would like him to get all of the pellets in him.



Re: Cornell labs results for Poppy

Maggie
 

Ha!  Well, it's not always so quick, but I am probably a lot more familiar with the files and searching the archives than you are--yet!!  

Yes, that part at the beginning of Dr Kellon's response was what she was quoting from the email she was responding to.  Easy to get confused if you are not used to the way that we sometimes leave a of the post that we are responding to.  No worries, you'll get used to it.

I think when you read that file on Leptin resistance that I linked to you it will make a lot more sense.  

Good that the blood was drawn non-fasting.  Fasting can actually give a lower reading and that's why we don't recommend it.  We want to know what the insulin is on what the horse is currently eating.  We do not recommend soaking the hay for longer than an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in warm water unless you change the water after those time periods.  Don't want any iron being absorbed into the hay with the longer soaking times.  Not sure what your read about a quick way to test for iron in your water, was it something in our files?  Just to let you know that Dairy One (the mother lab of EA) does water testing at a very reasonable cost. Just need to call them and ask them to send you a sterile bottle.  http://dairyone.com/analytical-services/water/   

You can add a selenium test to your hay analysis, if you want.  They may actually still have your hay sample, as I know they keep them for a period of time. It's a bit pricey at $35.  Here's a map that you can use to see if you're in a selenium deficient area:  http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/usa.html   The iron level in your hay (82) is very reasonable and will be easy to balance.

I don't think you will be sorry that you ordered the ODTB's!  I use them as hand fed treats, and also in these NoseIt toys:  http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-54208   I made some 2'x'4' toy boxes out of 2x8's that I put the NoseIt's in for them.  They will come flying in from the field when I shake the cubes around in there to make noise!

Happy reading!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: Cornell labs results for Poppy

Susanna Armbruster
 

Hi hi--
Maggie reassured me that I had misunderstood about the beet pulp -- my bad for the statement! Here's what Maggie sent in response:

"I am not sure, but think you may have misinterpreted Dr Kellon's message concerning GMO and beet pulp in this message:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/193332 "help for Oreo"

Dr Kellon was responding to a message and in doing so left the part of the message that she was responding to intact at the top of her response. This is the entire message that she took the excerpt from: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/193314

And her response to that post starts with this: "Regarding beet pulp"

Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is safe to feed, so you can continue to use it as your carrier if Poppy likes it. The ODTB's are also safe and can actually be used as a complete balanced feed, needing to add only Vitamin E and ground flax seed. But since you already have your hay tested, I would continue down that path of getting it balanced. My boys never did take to beet pulp and I use the dampened ODTB's as a carrier for my balancing minerals. They LOVE their ODTB's!!"

Have a great day!

Susanna
Red Hook, NY
March 2015
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Poppy%20Seed%20and%20Susanna/


Re: Cornell labs results for Poppy

Susanna Armbruster
 

Hi Maggie!
I am always amazed at the amount of information you're able to provide so quickly! Whew, you're good!

Thanks so much for the clarification about the beet pulp . . . this is what got me: she wrote "I am reading more and more about how GMO beet pulp (which is all the beet pulp made in the US) contains toxins and poisons from Round Up and that instead of helping the hind gut to process feed better, it is killing the healthy bacteria there and doing the oposite ( http://www.bioequine.com/beet-pulp-warning.html ) as well as soy not being healthy for equines (preventing proper mineral absorbtion, this was done on cattle but it does have the same effect on horses http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/bookstore/pubs/mf2438.pdf )."

Honestly, Poppy doesn't care what she gets as her carrier as long as she gets it! lol Not a picky eater, that one. I've naturally special ordered two bags of ODTC. :-)

Thanks also for your explanation about her baseline. I will definitely get the mineral balancing done; I'm curious about the selenium and iron levels. I read yesterday about a quick way of testing our water for iron levels.

Finally, the blood was drawn non-fasting. I gave her super-soaked (soaked over 4 hours) hay for 10 hours before the draw and she had no meal until after the vet left.

I've got my reading list for the day!
Hope you have a terrific day!
Susanna



Susanna
Red Hook, NY
March 2015
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Poppy%20Seed%20and%20Susanna/


Re: 12 Year old PPID IR gelding ( Questions ) # 2

corrine haffner
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Hi 


So going to make an Appt for xrays on jasper's front feet,he's still very sore yet even though i soak hay and keep diet low sugar/starch. He's still being treated for lyme dease and now heaves its all in his case history that was updated recently.


Hay is untested reason i soak could it still be an issue? maybe sugar is still to high even though hay is soaked for 30 minutes in hot water ? Hay is grass hay has some alfalfa in it but less then 20% of hay contains alfalfa,so maybe 20% is to much for jasper?  Plan on testing new hay this year,not sure testing current hay is worth it? only have 10 bales left its big round bales last years hay. 


Or could lyme dease  be the cause of continued sore feet,now he seems to be sore body wise,and very crabby. Also got the Lung EQ and he wont eat it so now what?? He refuses to eat supplements eats sugar free mints,so tried crushing those up to put in supps nope wont touch it. 


Anything other then hay he wont touch now he suspicious of all feed i offer. Today i noticed he's found he can get bites of green grass under fence line,so that might be part of sore foot issues? Got to fix that here before dark.


Thanks,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710



Re: viewing other members case histories

Lorna Cane
 

What is the link to your CH? I'll check it for you.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





>I;ve been looking at some other members CH's to learn what others are doing.

Many of the files under ech8, don't open.. ( mine included it seems)





viewing other members case histories

lj friedman
 

I;ve been looking at some other members CH's to learn what others are doing.

Many of the files under ech8, don't open.. ( mine included it seems)



a. is this fine to do?

b. if I see something I wonder about , who do I ask? or remain silent?

  for ex one ch showed acth at 43.1 and is showing that they are using .5 and .25 alternating doses of  pergolide/prascend.., which they started when acth was  lower?  does this make sense?


lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


idexx labs

lj friedman
 

When I see a ech and acth is performed by Idexx, does this mean it was a send out test? I didn't think they did their own acth testing..  lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


Re: Hi there; rug Q

takarri@...
 


I just need some help, with a RUG question please... I am heading to town and if I need to rug him, it's my best chance for a couple of weeks to get any rugs... He is a mini, and we think he is about 15... But I need some help to work out what is normal for an ECIR pony re: rugs.

Hi Liz and welcome to the group. Sounds like your on the ball with everything so well done.  A case history will be great as soon as you get a chance. If you need help with it let me know.

Here’s a link to it again just in case you need it

 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info

 

Can you give me a better idea of whereabouts in Central QLD you are- Rocky/Bundy area? This will help me work out your weather pattern.

 

Some PPID horses have trouble thermoregulating- so can’t adjust their body temperature in accordance to what is required. Do you know if the pony was rugged previously? Has he got a thick shaggy coat or has he been clipped- these all factor in the management plan. However, I think if you got a light lined canvas or even an unlined canvas with a cotton rug underneath that should cover your basis. That way you've got a bit of room to play around depending on the weather, I think that your days are still quite mild, but your nights are getting cool? Plus he has shelter, which is a bonus. If he was in good shape I’d almost be inclined to say not to worry about it, but if he doing poorly- then it will help. Making sure he’s got access to hay 24/7 will also help keep him warm.

 

If you do go with the rugs, just check at different times of the day as to whether he’s sweating or not. Or you just may need to use them at night.  A lot of horses, PPID or not do well without being rugged – but I’ll confess to being a bit of a rug fiend (think Imelda Marcos and her shoes) In the USA, they even have horses in the snow that do well without rugs, but do have shelter… brrrrr

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 



 

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