Date   

mov-ease

Casey and Don James <macivor@...>
 

Thanks, Nancy!
I did the search and found all kinds of good stuff, including seeing that my question was redundant.  Thanks for tolerance....
 
casey oregon 2015


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

layzd@...
 

"PPID is a disease of aging. There is not data available on the number of feral horses with pituitary changes but since the average life expectancy is only about 18 years, there probably is not as much and they might not even be symptomatic before they die for other reasons. "

Dr Kellon, this statement shocked me  Why the short life expentancy?  Is it due to BLM interference and civilization encroachment?  My experience when I lived in Nevada was that those who where not interfered with lived into late 20's or 30.  Isn't there 30 years of tooth in the skull?  

Am I on the wrong forum to discuss this issue?  I would be happy to move the conversation to a different group if need be, but I am really interested in where the 18 year number comes from. 

Debora 
Cant remember when I joined this group 
NRC+ 1112



Re: New Member Message - Location Waxhaw, NC

Maggie
 

Hi Michelle,

Welcome to the group!  Ok, first requirement is deep breaths!  We can and will help you!  You are doing a bunch of stuff that we recommend already, so let's fine tune your plan for your Rocky Mountain gelding.  What's his name, btw?  To give you the best help we need more details about him.  It involves a bit of work on your part, but it's a very important step in giving us the details we need.  You need to fill out a case history on your boy.  To do that, you will need to join our sister group called ECHistroy 8.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Once you join , and it should not take long to get approved, just follow the directions on the main page to fill out a CH on your boy.  Meanwhile, I will explain our philosophy and why we recommend what we do.  Our philosophy is called DDT+E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  

You already have a Diagnosis of insulin resistance (IR), so that's a great first step!  At the age of 5, I seriously doubt that your gelding has PPID (Cushing's), so stop worrying about that for now.  Whew!  One less thing for your to worry about!  :)  Ok, let me explain. PPID and IR are two completely separate conditions that have some similar and overlying symptoms.  PPID is a benign tumor or hyperplasia in part of the pituitary gland called the pars intermedia.  It is not usually seen under the age of 10, so that is the age we recommend that you also start testing for PPID as well as IR, unless the horse is displaying other symptoms of PPID.  IR is a metabolic type of horse, usually described as easy keepers, with regional adiposity (cresty neck, fat pads in the rump, etc).  Any horse can have just PPID, just IR, or both, or neither of course.  His coat issues could be due to needing to be dewormed or just not having a balanced diet.  If we can't get him straightened out with Diet alone, we can revisit the idea of testing him for PPID.  But for now, lets' concentrate on getting his Diet under control.  

Great that you copied the emergency diet!!  By now, I am guessing that you are in possession of a bag of beet pulp.  I hope you got the other ingredients in the emergency diet--magnesium, Vitamin E, Iodized salt and ground flax seed.  If so, great!  If not, you can get it all at Walmart or the grocery store.  

Has your gelding ever eaten beet pulp before?  If not, it may take him a while to get used to it, as it has a difference "mouth feel."  You only need to feed him one cup (measured dry) and then you need to rinse it really well until the water runs clear and then soak it till it's nice and soft and fluffy, an hour should do it, and then rinse it again really well.  Add the emergency ingredients in the amounts listed in the emergency diet and see what he thinks!  You can actually use the quiessence for the magnesium for now, but in future, you can save your self some cash by using feed grade magnesium oxide.  If he likes it, then you can do it again in the morning!  Most of us feed a bucket feed twice/day with a safe carrier for the supplements.  You can make up enough beet pulp for several days and refrigerate or freeze it in portion size baggies.  If he totally does not take to beet pulp, get back to us.  We have lots of ideas on how to get him eat it and /or other safe carriers.  He does not have to eat beet pulp, but it's a nice low glycemic food to use as a carrier for your supplements.

Additionally, you need to start weighing his hay and feed him either 1.5% of his current weight or 2% of his ideal weight, divided up into several feedings/day.  Do you have any small mesh hay nets (smhn)?  If not, it's a great, and really a necessary investment for an IR horse.  The leptin resistance that accompanies the insulin resistance causes them to not have a "stop eating" signal, so feeding them from a smhn helps to slow down their eating and make their allotted amount of hay last as long as possible.  If he's has never eaten from one, I would suggest one that has 1.5-2" holes.  If he is already used to eating from a smhn, then I LOVE these greedy feeders with 1" holes:  https://stagecoachwest.com/greedy-feeder-p-5194.html   Go to Walmart and get a fish scale to weigh his hay.

In addition to weighing out his hay, until you can get it tested, you will need to start soaking it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  This can remove up to ~30% of the sugar content.  Yes, fescue hay may not the best choice.  When you order your new hay, try to find Timothy or orchard grass, and see if the hay grower will let you take a sample to send in for testing before making a large purchase.  We aim for less than 10% combined sugar+starch in the diet and 4% or less fat.  The Essentials K is 6% fat and I can't find what the sugar and starch content is as they do not list it.  Many, many, ok MOST bagged feeds, even the ones that claim to be good for IR or metabolically challenged horses, are still too high in sugar and/or starch.  It's also high in iron and since most IR horse are already iron overloaded, and get plenty in their natural diet, we don't want to add any more iron.  Anyway, you need to stop the Essentials K.  The goal is to get your hay tested and then have one of our balancing folks balance the excesses and deficiencies according to what the analysis shows to make a custom diet for your hay.  Here's where we like to send our hay for analysis:  http://equi-analytical.com/  Call them and ask for some "forage kits" (they are free) and then send your sample in for the #603, trainer's package for $54.  I like to send my sample from the grower in for just sugar and starch to make sure it's less than 10% sugar + starch, and then once I know that, I add the rest of the #603 to it so I can balance the minerals.  They keep your hay sample for a period of time so all you have to do it call them and tell them to add the rest.  Once you get your results, you can ask one of the balancing folks to help you to balance it.  The first file in this folder is a list of balancers:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/    We have lots of members in NC, so maybe someone close to you will chime in here and lend you a hay probe.  If not, check with your local extension office or coop.  They often have hay probes that they will lend out.  Michelle, this is obviously not going to all get done overnight!  Meanwhile, use the emergency diet. 

As important as what you DO feed on the IR diet is what you DON'T feed!  No grain, no pelleted or senior feeds, no pasture (even dead looking grass), no sugary treats (including carrots and apples), no molasses, no brown/red mineral salt blocks--white ones only.  

OK, on to Trim.  Toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  It sounds like you are not having any issues with your boy's trim, but we often find that it's not as optimum as it could be.  You are welcome to post pictures of his feet in the PHOTOS section of ECH8 (the group you join to fill out the case history).  Please visit this site first to learn how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 

Last part, Exercise.  The best IR buster there is!  A laminitc horse should never be forced to move!!  It sounds like your boy is not having any laminitis issues, so if you can get him on a good solid exercise program, that would be great!!

Ok, Michelle, I am not trying to overwhelm you further!  Yes, you have a lot to do.  Yes, the learning curve here is a little steep.  But with over 12,000 members and so many success stories, we know what works!  So take deep breaths and dig in.  You are already doing great!  Read the files and the website:  http://ecirhorse.org/   Ask any questions you have!  We are here to help you help your boy!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: depression and ppid

lj friedman
 

thanks for the reply.. I think Jesse has always been stoic. after all those years as a hunter jumper.. When I first met him over 1.5 yrs ago, he would just hang in the corner of his stall and look sad.. At least now.. he makes plenty of noise when I approach.. ie food lol.. he is 24.. so no change from the horse I know.. a bit more animation could never hurt.. I will consider a walk around the area.

lj friedman san diego nov 2014
ECHistory8

 




Re: depression and ppid

Nancy C
 

Two thumbs up Kerry.

It's helpful to rate him on a scale on  daily basis and keep track over time.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: To diagnose IR, the ECIR Group recommends a non-fasted, simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin and the use of VA Polytechnic Proxies. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
IR Calculator

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

LJ,

Putting aside the barn owner's thoughts, what is *your* interpretation of your horse's mood? Is he any different than before the move?


Re: depression and ppid

Kerry Isherwood
 

LJ,

Putting aside the barn owner's thoughts, what is *your* interpretation of your horse's mood? Is he any different than before the move?

Strangers who met my mare might say she's "depressed" -- she is very placid, very stoic, quietly eats hay, scratches on the same fence post, rests under her tree, naps at 11am, never screams or paws for late meals, etc. She's just an old, content horse that does the same boring things each day.

The one thing she does show emotion about is jumping -- she will literally drag you to a jump she gets so excited. There are days I may not feel like riding one more but i do it for her happiness and weight control. Its what makes her happy.

Is there an activity that your horse enjoys? Grooming, or handwalking? I remember he has hock arthritis, but is he sound enough for walks on a nice trail for short distances? It may be that he just needs more of *you* (something he's familiar with) to help him settle after his move

True depression in veterinary terms means withdrawn from normal routine; hiding or not interacting w owners; decreased interest or appetite for food; lethargic/not wanting to move, etc. In general, a change from the animal's normal behavior.

If there has truly been a big change in your horse's behavior then it warrants figuring out what's bothering him. If not, then your barn owner just needs to get used to an old Cushings horse. No big deal. So start by asking yourself if you observe any differences in your horse before and after the move, remembering that some horses are quite stressed by major changes while others will seemingly eat/sleep anywhere.

Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 2014
Tofurky Nov 2014


Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Nancy C
 

Hi Jessi

If you vet uses "lab normals" as his or her way to review results he is correct in his assertion. The so-called "normal reading" does not mean the horse is not IR.  That is why we use the IR calculator as outlined in the diagnosis page on ecirhorse.org.

Leptin can be more exact but can be influenced by outside factors such as age, exercise, pergnancy.

You want one blood draw, non-fasting but eating a low ESC and Starch diet preferably hay or  something like ODTB Cubes all night. If they go longer than a few hours you will hvae a break int eh fast when you serve breakfast and need to hold off testing  for about four hours to avoid the spike in glucose and insulin once they resume eating in the morning.

I would not put her on pasture.

The question about karo syrup safety has been brought up here many times.  Yhe original researchers and others did say/have said there was minor risk.  It would be too much for my horse.

Speaking strictly on a personal level, I've not heard a good answer as to why using tests from human medicine is preferble to those derived through research on horses and their physiology, which is what ECIR recommends. 

by using a nonfasting blood draw after eating low esc and starch hay and using what is called "the proxies" developed by Va Poly Tech, you are mirror the most intensive testing available, called Minimal Model.

I referenced the 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings earlier.  Please take a look at the complete doc on Diagnosing IR and PPID. it reviews all the tests, why they are used, why ECIR Recommends what it does. Your vet can also find these proceedings on IVIS (International Veterinary Information Service)

Therefore, the ECIR Group recommends a simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin. The horse should not be fasted prior to testing, but fed hay only the night before and day of testing. Understanding the conditions of the test and the use of proxies will determine IR status. To calculate the proxies, the ECIR Group Calculator is available to do the math: IR Calculator

 

Help us out too, Jessi when you post by giving us your name as you have done, but also adding your general location and when you joined the ECIR yahoo.


Many thanks.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  The fall seasonal ACTH rise was first documented by an ECIR Group member and her veterinarian after noticing her horse had repeated bouts of fall laminitis. Fall laminitis is now recognized as an early sign of PPID.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <insidiousglamour@...> wrote :


I have read up on the karo syrup method and it says that it's safe and out of all of the studies they've conducted they haven't had issues. I haven't  read the actual papers as of yet, but it sounded like the vets who promoted this method and felt it was more accurate do not feel it imposes any risk of significance.


Thanks,

Jessi

 


Re: depression and ppid

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Lj,

How many hours a day does Jesse spend in his stall?  Does he have a paddock attached to his stall so he can roam about?  Is there the opportunity for him to be turned out with another horse in a dry paddock or with a grazing muzzle for a few hours per day?  I am wondering if he isn't either a bit bored so he seems shut down and/or perhaps is craving some horse interaction.  Did you consider getting him the Nose - It Ball or something similar filled with pellets  for him to "play" with at night since he can not eat hay?  

It took my horses longer than 3 weeks to adjust to their living situation when I moved them home from their boarding situation.....If he was more animated before the move than maybe he needs more time to settle in.........not sure what the BO is looking for or observing.....maybe more specific observations from her would be helpful.    


Kathy Brinkerhoff




Re: Mov-ease

Nancy C
 

Hi Casey

Do an archive search on Mov-ease with drkellon as the author.

Dr Kellon did a review of Mov-ease with owners in the field and with knowledge of what is in the product and review was positive.  It is safe for IR horses.

Here's one line that explains the trial and position on "proprietary".

Most of us who have used the product do have faith in the company.  Give them a call to help make your decision.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <macivor@...> wrote :


How can you make a decision for what your horse takes if you don't know what it is? I guess by faith in the company and faith in others that use it. 
 
ca


Re: depression and ppid

Nancy C
 

I'd go for the jherb but the Previcox (did you enter that on your CH too?) will interfere. My next try would be American Ginseng but again, not sure about NSIOD interference.  On the run so I'll let you do the message archive search on "ginseng" and "NSAID"

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Iron overload has been identified as a significant factor in IR horses
that are not receiving a mineral-balanced diet. (Nielsen, BD, Vick, MM, Dennis, PM, 2012. A potential link between insulin resistance and iron overload disorder in browsing rhinoceroses investigated through the use of an equine model. J Zoo Wildl Med. 2012 Sep;43(3 Suppl):S61-5.)
See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Iron Overload and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 


 


Re: Mov-ease

Casey and Don James <macivor@...>
 


How can you make a decision for what your horse takes if you don't know what it is? I guess by faith in the company and faith in others that use it. 
 
casey oregon 2015

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 11:19 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Mov-ease

 

You wont know what is in Mov ease. It is a proprietary blend of herbs.. meaning.. they don't want you to know the ingredients  bec you mjght want to go out and make  it on your own.. Nothing wrong with a company wanting to keep their ingredients secure,  sort of like Mcdonalds secret sauce,. lol


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: Seasonal variations dopamine, cortisol and serotonin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




One problem I have with this study is that the horses were all older (21 to 36) and with an upper normal for ACTH of 50 pg/mL there could easily have been some early PPID animals in the control group. 

It has been known for a very long time for both human and equine that cortisol is not a reliable marker. There are simply too many things that can influence it, it's secretion is pulsatile and metabolism by the peripheral tissues prevents single "spot" samples from accurately predicting how much is being produced.  Serotonin changes between the two groups did not reach statistical significance and with groups this small I would forget about that.

The dopamine data is the most significant. What it says to me is that the dopamine levels in PPID horses do not change significantly with the seasons, but they do in normal horses.  There is less variability over the day in PPID horses and less effect of season/day length. Melatonin alone does not explain the pattern in the normal horses - ? maybe because they are not all normal and maybe because, as Jaini said, other hormones are involved. We know thyroid hormone levels change with season and that prolactin is involved in seasonal reproduction and coat changes.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: depression and ppid

lj friedman
 

thanks for the reply,, I inputted the labs..


for depression, should jherb or American ginseng be my first try?


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: Mov-ease

lj friedman
 

You wont know what is in Mov ease. It is a proprietary blend of herbs.. meaning.. they don't want you to know the ingredients  bec you mjght want to go out and make  it on your own.. Nothing wrong with a company wanting to keep their ingredients secure,  sort of like Mcdonalds secret sauce,. lol


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Mov-ease

Casey James <macivor@...>
 

I couldn't seem to find what is in Mov-Ease.  I don't know if I could/should add other joint, anti inflammatory or pain supplements without knowing what is in the product.  Does anyone know what Mov-Ease is? Maybe I just missed the list of ingredients and amounts.

Casey oregon 2015


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote :

I am trying to understand why so many horses have this disease. Do horses in the wild suffer from PPID or is it confined to domestic horses and is, therefore, "manmade" due to our feeding practices???


= = = = = = = = = = =


PPID is a disease of aging. There is not data available on the number of feral horses with pituitary changes but since the average life expectancy is only about 18 years, there probably is not as much and they might not even be symptomatic before they die for other reasons.


This paper describes how the pituitary gradually changes:


Expression and Regulation of Facilitative Glucose Transporters in Equine Insulin-Sensitive Tissue: From Physiology to Pathology


Notice all the horses with grade I only were much younger than the others and the two other much younger horses show up in grade II.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



New Member Message - Location Waxhaw, NC

michelle H
 

Hi!


I suspected something was wrong with My Rocky Mountain gelding. He has a round belly and a slight cresty neck- he's 5 yrs old. I have tried everything that everyone else told me to do- wasn't bringing down his weight.  I have limited his pasture- he spends most time in in dry lot.  He is on a ration balancer (called Essential K) and quiessence.    No lameness that I can tell and farriers rave about his feet.  I had my vet run glucose- insulin and leptin and just got results back today.  He is IR based upon the results below.  Should I be testing him for Cushings or anything else?  The fur on his sides seem a bit frizzy so I don't know if its from fly spray or getting singed in sun from flyspray  or something else?


Glucose 92 mg/dl

Insulin 34.4 uiU/ml

Leptin 9.86 ng/ml


Did I mention that this is my first horse ever.  My head is spinning with the results and I'm overwhelmed right now. 


 I'm going to buy beet pulp within the next 2 hours.  All we have is fescue hay right now.  I need to order my spring hay.  Can he continue to eat this type of hay?  What kind of minerals, herbs, vitamins should he be getting and how much?  How many times per day should I feed him?  How much beet pulp? I just printed the emergency diet.


What other questions should I be asking?  Please help.


Thank you,

Michelle in Waxhaw, NC



Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Jessica
 

Thank you! I have looked over that site. I am assuming my vet did not prefer the blood draw, as insulin can give a normal reading while the horse is actually IR (as it states there). But from what I'm reading, it's the leptin draw that you rely on to pinpoint IR or not IR?


I am a little confused on the blood draw information - is this just one blood draw non-fasting?


She is fed hay right away in the morning (after not having any overnight) and turned out onto pasture between 7 and 8am. Should the blood draw be four hours after her AM hay?


I have read up on the karo syrup method and it says that it's safe and out of all of the studies they've conducted they haven't had issues. I haven't  read the actual papers as of yet, but it sounded like the vets who promoted this method and felt it was more accurate do not feel it imposes any risk of significance.


Thanks,

Jessi


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

Kerry Isherwood
 

Interesting re: if genetic.  I still can't get my head around the entire HYPP population tracing back to Impressive.  That discovery happened when I was a little kid and the idea that this beautiful, gleaming halter stallion was the reason for so much disease was, and is, staggering to me. 

But for PPID:  are there certain breeds over-represented?  And certain lines in these breeds?  My PPID is a grade PMU mare from Canada.

Is the cause hubandry?  Pharmaceuticals used throughout a horse's life?  Fly sprays?  Vaccines?
Certain feedstuffs?  Or lack of anti-oxidants? 
Or is it just the "old age cancer" that each species tends to have over-represented in their geriatric populations (dogs = hepatic/splenic hemangiosarcoma; cats = GI lymphoma; horses = benign pituitary cancer)?

Interesting stuff.  Wouldn't it be cool if our generation witnessed the arrival of the answer?

Kerry


Re: depression and ppid

 

I'll second American Ginseng, assuming Jessie isn't on J-Herb. I saw a real improvement in Satra, a leveling of mood. It smells wonderful! This grower in Ontario produces it. http://www.raineyginseng.com/ginseng-powder-capsules.html

In Satra's case, the problem wasn't depression but over-reaction and wild-eyed sensitivity in an ordinarily sane, sober and reliable horse.

  

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12
---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

Adaptogens can help even when you don't have the veil.  The good news is, you know right away if it is what they needed.  Besides APF, you can try jherb or American Ginseng.

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