Date   

Re: Seasonal variations dopamine, cortisol and serotonin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




One problem I have with this study is that the horses were all older (21 to 36) and with an upper normal for ACTH of 50 pg/mL there could easily have been some early PPID animals in the control group. 

It has been known for a very long time for both human and equine that cortisol is not a reliable marker. There are simply too many things that can influence it, it's secretion is pulsatile and metabolism by the peripheral tissues prevents single "spot" samples from accurately predicting how much is being produced.  Serotonin changes between the two groups did not reach statistical significance and with groups this small I would forget about that.

The dopamine data is the most significant. What it says to me is that the dopamine levels in PPID horses do not change significantly with the seasons, but they do in normal horses.  There is less variability over the day in PPID horses and less effect of season/day length. Melatonin alone does not explain the pattern in the normal horses - ? maybe because they are not all normal and maybe because, as Jaini said, other hormones are involved. We know thyroid hormone levels change with season and that prolactin is involved in seasonal reproduction and coat changes.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: depression and ppid

lj friedman
 

thanks for the reply,, I inputted the labs..


for depression, should jherb or American ginseng be my first try?


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Re: Mov-ease

lj friedman
 

You wont know what is in Mov ease. It is a proprietary blend of herbs.. meaning.. they don't want you to know the ingredients  bec you mjght want to go out and make  it on your own.. Nothing wrong with a company wanting to keep their ingredients secure,  sort of like Mcdonalds secret sauce,. lol


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Mov-ease

Casey James <macivor@...>
 

I couldn't seem to find what is in Mov-Ease.  I don't know if I could/should add other joint, anti inflammatory or pain supplements without knowing what is in the product.  Does anyone know what Mov-Ease is? Maybe I just missed the list of ingredients and amounts.

Casey oregon 2015


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote :

I am trying to understand why so many horses have this disease. Do horses in the wild suffer from PPID or is it confined to domestic horses and is, therefore, "manmade" due to our feeding practices???


= = = = = = = = = = =


PPID is a disease of aging. There is not data available on the number of feral horses with pituitary changes but since the average life expectancy is only about 18 years, there probably is not as much and they might not even be symptomatic before they die for other reasons.


This paper describes how the pituitary gradually changes:


Expression and Regulation of Facilitative Glucose Transporters in Equine Insulin-Sensitive Tissue: From Physiology to Pathology


Notice all the horses with grade I only were much younger than the others and the two other much younger horses show up in grade II.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



New Member Message - Location Waxhaw, NC

michelle H
 

Hi!


I suspected something was wrong with My Rocky Mountain gelding. He has a round belly and a slight cresty neck- he's 5 yrs old. I have tried everything that everyone else told me to do- wasn't bringing down his weight.  I have limited his pasture- he spends most time in in dry lot.  He is on a ration balancer (called Essential K) and quiessence.    No lameness that I can tell and farriers rave about his feet.  I had my vet run glucose- insulin and leptin and just got results back today.  He is IR based upon the results below.  Should I be testing him for Cushings or anything else?  The fur on his sides seem a bit frizzy so I don't know if its from fly spray or getting singed in sun from flyspray  or something else?


Glucose 92 mg/dl

Insulin 34.4 uiU/ml

Leptin 9.86 ng/ml


Did I mention that this is my first horse ever.  My head is spinning with the results and I'm overwhelmed right now. 


 I'm going to buy beet pulp within the next 2 hours.  All we have is fescue hay right now.  I need to order my spring hay.  Can he continue to eat this type of hay?  What kind of minerals, herbs, vitamins should he be getting and how much?  How many times per day should I feed him?  How much beet pulp? I just printed the emergency diet.


What other questions should I be asking?  Please help.


Thank you,

Michelle in Waxhaw, NC



Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Jessica
 

Thank you! I have looked over that site. I am assuming my vet did not prefer the blood draw, as insulin can give a normal reading while the horse is actually IR (as it states there). But from what I'm reading, it's the leptin draw that you rely on to pinpoint IR or not IR?


I am a little confused on the blood draw information - is this just one blood draw non-fasting?


She is fed hay right away in the morning (after not having any overnight) and turned out onto pasture between 7 and 8am. Should the blood draw be four hours after her AM hay?


I have read up on the karo syrup method and it says that it's safe and out of all of the studies they've conducted they haven't had issues. I haven't  read the actual papers as of yet, but it sounded like the vets who promoted this method and felt it was more accurate do not feel it imposes any risk of significance.


Thanks,

Jessi


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

Kerry Isherwood
 

Interesting re: if genetic.  I still can't get my head around the entire HYPP population tracing back to Impressive.  That discovery happened when I was a little kid and the idea that this beautiful, gleaming halter stallion was the reason for so much disease was, and is, staggering to me. 

But for PPID:  are there certain breeds over-represented?  And certain lines in these breeds?  My PPID is a grade PMU mare from Canada.

Is the cause hubandry?  Pharmaceuticals used throughout a horse's life?  Fly sprays?  Vaccines?
Certain feedstuffs?  Or lack of anti-oxidants? 
Or is it just the "old age cancer" that each species tends to have over-represented in their geriatric populations (dogs = hepatic/splenic hemangiosarcoma; cats = GI lymphoma; horses = benign pituitary cancer)?

Interesting stuff.  Wouldn't it be cool if our generation witnessed the arrival of the answer?

Kerry


Re: depression and ppid

 

I'll second American Ginseng, assuming Jessie isn't on J-Herb. I saw a real improvement in Satra, a leveling of mood. It smells wonderful! This grower in Ontario produces it. http://www.raineyginseng.com/ginseng-powder-capsules.html

In Satra's case, the problem wasn't depression but over-reaction and wild-eyed sensitivity in an ordinarily sane, sober and reliable horse.

  

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12
---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

Adaptogens can help even when you don't have the veil.  The good news is, you know right away if it is what they needed.  Besides APF, you can try jherb or American Ginseng.


Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

ahorn555@...
 

I Understand about finding it staggering regarding the number of horses with these benign tumors.  But I question as to whether or not it is genetic.  Given breeding practices and so many with same lineage it would explain the number of these cushing horses.  I have two!


Re: Mov-ease

Lynne Nagahara <kenlynnenagaha@...>
 

I have had my mare on Mov-ease for about 3 weeks now.  I am not seeing much of a difference.  The difficult part is the suggested feeding of mov-ease 20 minutes prior to their meal for best results.  I did it by syringe and liquid for the loading doses twice a day, 20 minutes prior to her meal, but really don't want to be coming at her with the syringe every day. It was hard enough going down there seeing her hoping to be fed, only to get something syringed into her mouth and then I walk away for 20 minutes!!  Was hard on me too!  So have been mixing it in her supplements, which is probably considered part of the "meal".  Thus I might not be getting the results I would like to see.  I did try emailing the company to find out if there was a better way to give this to my mare.  But never heard back.  Will be looking forward to seeing comments from your email!

Sincerely,
Lynne & Dani
Paso Robles, CA  2009


Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Maggie
 

Hi Jessi,

In addition to the information you've already gotten from Sherry and Nancy, I would like to add one more thing.  Since you first joined back in June 2003, we have a new and improved website that you may not be aware of.  It's a great place to get a lot of great information about the DDT/E philosophy that we follow and also a great place to send your vet for information about testing.  Here's a link to the site.  Just use the menu on the left in blue to navigate around and view all of the sections.  Your vet may be the most interested in the "Diagnosis" page.
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
ECHistory4 


 


Re: depression and ppid

Nancy C
 

Hi lj

Yes PPID could definitely be a factor.

Adaptogens can help even when you don't have the veil.  The good news is, you know right away if it is what they needed.  Besides APF, you can try jherb or American Ginseng.

See adaptogens doc in the files.

Did you check you case history for labs yet?


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




Re: Considering getting my mare tested - some questions

Nancy C
 

Hi Jesse

You will get a full welcome from one of the senior volunteers soon but want to comment on testing. 

I must disagree with your vet regarding his choices on testing.  You do not need the Karo syrup test  which is based on human medicine and not without risk.

What the group recommends is non-fasting blood drw of serum insulin, leptin and glucose.  The model for this testing and review of results are based on looking at ponies in a natural condition from the VA Poly Tech.


Your breeds are prediposed to IR so it is good that you are looking for diagnosis. While you are waiting for more guidance from us, go take a look at the diagnosis page of ecirhorse.org (link below) and download Dr Kellon's Diagnosing IR and PPID 2013 NO Lamintis! Proceeding. (link also below)

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis
2013 Proceedings & Recordings Table of Contents

 


Both of these will be helpful not only for you but also for your vet.  The proceeding especially explains and weighs the benefits of all the current tests.


Lastly, its great you are in Texas. The 2015 NO Lamintis! Conference will take place in Georgetown on Nov 6-8.  See nolaminitis.org.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 









---In EquineCushings@..., <insidiousglamour@...> wrote :

Thank you!


My initial thoughts were the nutrition in the grass/hay down here vs. Minnesota...but I want to make sure I cover my bases and don't overlook something like IR and pay for it with something more serious than a few extra pounds.



Re: Time to worm for tapes..

fionn@...
 

Are there side effects to deworming every month? or to the double doses? Just wondering if I need to do that since he’s rubbing his tail again.  Testing fecal today so I will know more specifics soon.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list

On Apr 19, 2015, at 1:49 AM, lj_friedman@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


Jesse is soon due for a worming for tapes.  He gets ivermectin,, each month and 2x a year I worm for tapes. , per Dr.Kellons suggestions because of his age and  compromised immune system and ppid ir, etc.  . Dr. Kellons suggests  2  double doses of pryantel paomate ,2 weeks apart instead of equimax..  I was going to just use one dose of equimax. because I'm lazy. How bad would it be to give equimax to a severe IR horse 24 yrs old with cushings?I already bought it.. no big deal as well.   Upon re thinking this.. doing 2 double doses isnt such a big deal.. wondering what others are doing. I've noticed no  negative issues with his current wormings. .On a brighter note. I started Jesse on prevacox today. Looking forward to see an improvement in his energy etc. with a goal to move from once a day prevacox, small dose to perhaps every other day or mwf,. etc as half life is 36 hours so once a day doesnt seem to be best practice.Farrier did a trim today.. very nice.  I think Jesse is lucky.. decent feet , tight diet well balanced.( thanks to the group) and no evidence of any laminitis, since Ive had him for the past year. 


lj friedman san diego nov 2014



Re: depression and ppid

fionn@...
 

Have you tried APF?  For Fionn it helps any time he seems kinda blah.  So it’s not just for the Pergolide Veil, at least in my experience.  I know it is way expensive so I kept trying to go off of it, but every time I did he got all blah again.  So I’ve just given in and kept him on it.  Sometimes I raise the dosage if he’s feeling down.  It always seems to help him.  Of course, every horse is different.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list

On Apr 23, 2015, at 2:44 AM, lj_friedman@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


New barn for Jesse, ( past 3 weeks) BO thinks hes not as up as he should be.. she has no reference but is comparing to other horses.  Are there herbs to elevate mood for our cushings/severe ir horses.  If acth is 43 , and normal is up to 35, would that be a factor to less than hoped for mood?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014I I will be retesting in next week and might bump up pergolide a bit to account for seasonal rise time. 



Re: depression and ppid

lj friedman
 

I searched web.. I dont think apf will help. It prevented the veil or maybe there was no veil to prevent..other things to try besides apf?


depression and ppid

lj friedman
 

New barn for Jesse, ( past 3 weeks) BO thinks hes not as up as he should be.. she has no reference but is comparing to other horses.  Are there herbs to elevate mood for our cushings/severe ir horses.  If acth is 43 , and normal is up to 35, would that be a factor to less than hoped for mood?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014I I will be retesting in next week and might bump up pergolide a bit to account for seasonal rise time. 


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jesse%20and%20LJ%20Friedman/



Re: Pituitary tumors and question for Dr. Kellon

newuser1971@...
 

Thanks for your response Pauline.


I just find it staggering that so many horses have benign tumours in their brains!!!!!


Sarah Harris

Mt Mee, QLD, Australia

Joined: March 2015


Re: Seasonal variations dopamine, cortisol and serotonin

janieclougher@...
 

Not Dr. Kellon here, but thanks for the link to that study.  It is so interesting that serotonin is lower in these horses (might lead to the observation of lethargy and depression, over and above the feeling of sore feet, lack of muscle, and general hormonal upset).  Ditto dopamine concentrations being lower in the Cushing's group.

The initial assignation of the Cushing's horses was certainly based on ACTH levels as well as observed clinical signs; but after that, there was no testing of ACTH, insulin, or glucose in the two groups. I would like to have seen that, as problems during the seasonal rise are likely due to increased ACTH and insulin, as well as (possibly) prolactin and other hormones. 

There weren't really enough horses in this study to say anything definitively (six horses and six controls aren't very different from a "one rat study"); but it is very suggestive, and certainly points to where further research is needed.  The variations in hormones between the Cushings and the normal horses are indeed interesting  - I will freely confess here that experimental design and statistics are very much not my forte, so hopefully Dr. Gustafson or Dr. Kellon will comment.


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I found this study extremely interesting, but it doesn't match "seasonal rise" as I understand it.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658710/

Thanks,

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas


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