Date   

j herb

lj friedman
 

I ordered j herb to have in Jesse's arsenal of products.. A few questions..  Is my besthorse the preferred place we buy j herb from?  ( I ordered from them)   Also, Jesse is boarded and I visit each day to give prascend. prevacox. rsr bp.  Can I get away with once a day j-herb? any tips?  ok to give with prascend ?with just a small amount of timothy pellets before a meal? how about also with prevacox? And should I consider stopping prevacox?  Is it   ok if it is close to meal time? any files for j-herb?  I didnt find any here,  lj friedman san diego nov 2014   Fyi, Jesse gets re tested for Cornell labs soon and I anticipate an increase in prascend from 1.0 mg to perhaps 1.5mg/d and this might be all that is needed,. I wanted to have the j herb.on hand . just in case, 




ECHistory8



Equine Metabolic

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Does anyone have any experience with an herbal supplement called Equine Metabolic by Equine Process?  A veterinarian suggested this for lowering insulin.


SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: ECHistory8



Re: Cornell testing and exercise before the testing

Lorna Cane
 



 >she wants every horse happy 

This is a good thing.Good for her.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: Cornell testing and exercise before the testing

lj friedman
 

I will ask the vet what he thinks the # is.. I'd say 6 or 7.. I think bec the BO is also an RN, she wants every horse happy and might be overreacting.. or maybe she isnt.. I will know more on Monday'

lj friedman san dieog nov 2014

ECHistory8

 




Re: j herb vs prevacox

lj friedman
 

I think the prevacox is doing something good... the timing was mult-faceted bec I started the prevacox a few days after a foot trim  which I believe may have contributed to his soreness,

lj friedman san diego nov 2014

iiECHistory8

 




Re: j herb vs prevacox

lj friedman
 

thanks for your reply.. I think I missed that post.. got it saved for vet visit monday, lj friedman san diego nov 2014...

ECHistory8

 




ECIR Group Inc. 2015 NO Laminitis! Conf

Nancy C
 

Dear Fellow ECIR Yahoo Members

Today the NO Laminitis Conference Committee is very happy to share more information about the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference.

The date, and venue, speakers and topics have been set.

When: The weekend of November 6-8, 2015, expanded this year to include a full day Friday and Saturday. Sunday events will conclude at 2 pm.  

Where: Georgetown, TX (just outside Austin with international access)

Speakers: Dr. Eleanor Kellon, Dr. Robert Bowker, Dr. Philip Johnson, Dr. Benamin Buchanan, Dr. Kathleen Gustafson, Lavinia Fiscaletti and Daisy Bicking.

Lecture Topics:  
    PPID and IR Myths and Misconceptions
    Equine Metabolic Syndrome - Its Origins and Evolution
    Ovarian Abnormalities In Mares With Refractory Insulin Resistance
    Endocrinopathic Laminitis – Changing Perspectives and Recent Revelations
    Ancillary Supplements For Horses With Laminitis And Metabolic Syndrome
    Winter Laminitis
    Understanding the Equine Microbiome
    Why Is It Good For The Coffin Bone To Be Porous While In Women We Call It Osteoporosis?               The Suspensory Apparatus Of The Coffin Bone: Its Functioning In Health And Disease
    The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog: What Does It Do?
    Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?
    Trim – The Essential, Missing Ingredient
    Building Successful Teams To Rehabilitate the EMS Horse
    Case Study Presentation of Successful Rehabilitation Using DDT&E and an Effective Team
    Forage Analysis - How and Why
    Understanding Variations in Pasture Grass

Attendees: Any professional or owner who has one or more horses in their care.

Tickets will be available mid May. Cost: $280. Early bird cost: $250. Once final details are in place, registration info will be announced to the group. Keep an eye out for conference updates on Yahoo, Facebook, ecirhorse.org, nolaminitis.org and IVIS.

Venue and accommodation info may be found on nolaminitis.org.  
 
Once the final details are in place, registration info will be announced to the group. Keep an eye out for conference updates on Yahoo, Facebook, ecirhorse.org, nolaminitis.org and IVIS.

The US alone has almost ten million horses. The most current estimates are that 10% to 15% of horses will suffer from laminitis every year, with 80% to 90% of the cases caused by endocrine disease. It can be a death sentence if not diagnosed and managed correctly.

For 15 years the ECIR Group has worked to improved the welfare of equines with metabolic disorder by focusing on prevention and treatment of endocrinopathic laminitis. Helping caregivers learn to recognize the importance of diagnosis, diet, trim and exercise has seen thousands through the complications of Equine Cushing’s Disease and Insulin Resistance.

Attendees at the 2011 and 2013 conferences welcomed the latest in research and specific protocols used to improve the welfare of equines in their care. The 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference will continue to build on that mission.

Please mark the date!  If you are on Facebook let us know you are coming!

With thanks on behalf of the 2015 NO Laminitis Conference Committee,

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
ECIR Moderator
ECIR Group Inc. Treasurer and Director
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
nolaminitis.org



Re: Ulcers

nancy berg <njberg961142002@...>
 

Lauren,

I gave my horse the Gastro Guard tube split up for 4 days and Gastro Plex from United Vet to prevent further incidences (per my vet's instruction).

Nancy
NE Ca.



On Thursday, April 30, 2015 9:30 AM, "laurenn1717@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:




Hello. My horse has hind gut and a trace of for gut ulcers. I have tried the Succeed and U-formula (techmix) with no success. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to use for ulcers with a horse who has cushings and has had success? Thank you!



Lauren
Arizona
Sept 2014

 






Ulcers

Lauren N
 

Hello. My horse has hind gut and a trace of for gut ulcers. I have tried the Succeed and U-formula (techmix) with no success. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to use for ulcers with a horse who has cushings and has had success? Thank you!




Lauren

Arizona

Sept 2014


ECHistory8

 



Re: How to analyze diet for Cushings/IR/laminitic pony

Maggie
 

Hi Katherine,

Welcome to the group!  You've given us a lot of information in your email and I see that Chanda has already given you some good information.  To give you the best help we need you to fill out a case history on your pony.  This puts all of that great information that you provided in a well organised form, stored in our "filing cabinet" that we can easily access at any time to help answer your questions.  To fill out a CH you will need to join one of our sister sites called ECHistory8.  It should not take long to get approved and then you can just follow the instructions on the main page to fill out a CH on your pony.  Here's a link to ECH8:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  You can put any lab work and hay analyses in your folder with your CH and put any hoof pictures, xrays in the PHOTOS section of that group.  Doing all of this will provide us with the details that we need to give you the best help.

Meanwhile, I will explain our philosophy and address a few of the issues that I see in your post.  Our philosophy is called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  When all 4 aspects are in place, you should see good results!  So let me go more into detail about each part.

Diagnosis:  So you know that you have a Diagnosis of Cushing's (PPID) and IR.  That's a great start!  It would be very helpful for us too see his labwork to help figure out what is driving his IR.  PPID and IR are two distinctly separate conditions but share some similar and overlapping symptoms, so getting a full diagnosis is important. The 4 lab tests that we recommend to get a full diagnosis are ACTH, insulin, glucose  and leptin levels on a NON-fating horse, preferrably sent to Cornall as they are the only lab in the US that does leptin levels.  The leptin helps to differentiate between if your pony has IR at baseline or if uncontrolled ACTH may be driving the insulin up.  More information about leptin can be found in the first file in this "insulin resistance" folder:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Insulin%20Resistance/  I know that you said that the ACTH is "controlled with Prascend", but we really need to see the numbers to help you evaluate that better.  We like to see the ACTH solidly in the middle of the normal range, and some PPID horses can still have problems when their ACTH is within the labs norms, but still not low enough to control symptoms.  Controlling PPID can be a very individual thing, dependent not just on the ACTH, but on the individual horse, how he metabolizes the pergolide (Prascend) and other factors as well.  

These labs require very special handling and the details about that can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis   If you haven't found our website until now, it's a great read with tons of information on PPID and IR.  Great place to send you vet as well!

OK, on to Diet!  Like Chanda, I see a lot of things that you can do to tighten up the diet for this pony.  The diet that we recommend is a forage based low sugar starch (tested to be under 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or under) mineral balanced diet.  We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar+starch, with minerals added to balance the hay to the analysis and to replace what is lost during the hay curing process, we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but it also supports the delicate immune system of the PPID horse.  If your hay hasn't been tested so that you know that's less than 10% sugar + starch, we do recommend soaking it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove ~30% of the sugar content, and also to start on the emergency diet.  Using the emergency diet will eliminate the known IR triggers and often results are seen in a few days to a few weeks.  Sometimes in trying to find a solution, we "throw the kitchen sink" at them, so to speak.  We have found that "less is more" in these IR guys.  I'm not really understanding why you don't want to feed Coastal hay.  I know there are a lot of folks on this list who do feed it and hopefully some of them will chime in.  I can understand him not liking soaked hay and the additional issues wrt the heat/humidity making it ferment faster.  Getting the hay tested quickly would important.  You can send it for just sugar and starch, and then once you know if it's safe, add the rest of the #603 trainers package.  Equi-analytical will do this for you.  Just make sure you ask for wet chemistry, not NIR for testing the sugar and starch.  Here's EA's website.  Call them and ask them for some forage kits:  http://equi-analytical.com/   Once you have all of the results back one of our balancing folks can help you to balance the excesses and deficiencies in your hay and other diet ingredients to make a custom diet for your pony.  Here's a file that contains some charts that you may find helpful in understanding the way we balance the minerals (third file in this folder):  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7a%20Hay%20and%20Diet%20Balancing/

As an alternative to hay, feeding the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's) that Chanda mentioned as a complete diet could be an option.  They are guaranteed to be under 10% sugar + starch and the minerals are balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications.  Any place that sells Triple Crown products can get the ODTB's.  You would have to add salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed in the amounts outlined in the emergency diet.

Chanda pointed out some details on some of the feeds that you are using.  I'll add a few more details.  Yes the beet pulp is a good carrier for your minerals.  But to make it safe, it must be rinsed until clear, soaked, and then rinsed again to remove any surface contaminants (dirt,iron) and residual sugar.  Like Chanda said, the Triple Crown safe starch is 6% fat and we recommend 4% or less, which is about what is found in grass.  Additionally, the fat is from soybean oil which has an upside down Omega 3:6 ratio.  We like to use ground flax seed for the Omega's because the 3:6 ratio is about the same as that found in grass, ~4:1.  Given the fact that high fat feeding can actually induce IR, you need to stop the Cool Stance copra.  Tons of past discussion about this in our archived messages.  Here's just one I found by Dr Kellon using "copra" to search:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/120961   This product and other feeding other fats to IR horses has been discussed many times in the past, so you will find LOTS of hits when you search the archives.

You are right to be concerned about the iron in his diet.  More information on iron overload, including where and how to test for it, can be found in our files here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Iron%2C%20Iron%20Testing%2C%20Iron%20Overload/   There is iron in everything they eat, so we are very cautious about eliminating additional sources of added iron.

Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  It's often the last piece of the puzzle to fall into place.  I would encourage you to post the xrays that you have and also pictures of your pony's feet to the PHOTOS section of ECH8 so that one of our hoof gurus can make sure that you have a proper derotating trim.  More information can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim  and here: http://www.ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim   To learn how to take good hoof photos and what shots we need please visit this website:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html 

Exercise:  The best IR buster there is, but a laminitic horse should never be forced to move.  When he is able, you should start hand walking him in long straight lines with no tight turns.  No exercise should be started until the pony is completely off of NSAID's (bute and previcox).  The NSAID's can mask pain and can cause him to do more than he should, possibly damaging the fragile new laminae as they grow in.  More information on when and how to start exercise can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-exercise 

So, Katherine, I know that I have given you a LOT of information. Please take some time to study it and the links I have provided, but don't hesitate to ask any further questions that you have!  It's a lot to learn!   In addition to what I have already provided, you may find the proceedings from the 2013 No Laminitis conference very informative as well.  The PDF's are free to download.  Here's a link:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings/2013-proceedings-recordings-table-of-contents   We ask that all members sign their name, general location, and date of joining each time they post.  Once you get your CH done, please also add a link to it in your signature so that we may find it faster and answer your questions.   See my signature below for an example.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA



Re: j herb vs prevacox

Nancy C
 

lj

Block the front feet at next vet visit to help rule out laminitis or even solar abscess causing the issues.

That was also suggested by Dr Kellon in Horsekeeping  thread.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.
See R. M. Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
and
See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :

>   Was I wrong not to consider j herb before the prevacox? Can xrays tell us which one of these would be most effective?  


Lj, did you see Dr. Kellon's message to you on the Horsekeeping list? Just in case you missed it:


" If this horse's problem was 9/10 hock pain, the Previcox would have had a clear effect by now, but not with pain related to endocrinopathic laminitis. That pain would easily explain why the horse seems "depressed" and would not respond to the adaptogens in APF.  Adequate pergolide to control ACTH together with Jiaogulan to support circulation would be a better approach."







Re: consults

Nancy C
 

Hi Dr Barrett

Not Dr Kellon here and hopefully you have gotten hold of her by now.  As far as I am aware she is still available. Depending on her work load, it can take a couple of tries to get her via  her drkellon.com site.

Spring is a busy time as you probably know.

HTH

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Sensory nerves in the foot can be activated via tactile light pressure receptors and can affect vascular perfusion through the foot bringing more comfort to the horse. See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org





Re: Help with interpreting results......

Nancy C
 

Hi Denise

Based on past messages, your case history is in ECHisotry3

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/Denise%20%20-%20Minnesota/

 

Please help us help you by saving the link, copying and pasting to your messages. We really need to see the whole up-to-date story.

Some ideas are

Diagnosis: His ACTH may need to be a tad lower, he may have iron over load or lyme issues. If temp was 40 degrees F or less, the temperature at the time of the blood draw may have had an impact.

Diet: He could have minerals tighter, additions of other supps lie ALCAR to help with insulin sensitivity.

Trim: It needs to be very tight to mitigate the affects of high insulin.

Exercise: Has a huge impact as you noted.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, http://www.ecirhorse.org

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <petersdeni@...> wrote :



I've been on the group for about 4 years.....but could really use some help interpreting the results as far as what is going on and most importantly ....WHAT to do next?  


THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH IN ADVANCE!

you guys are awesome and I'm so grateful for this group!


Denise Peterson

Shalimar - MN

NRCPLUS 1210

This group - autumn of 2010





NOW: Jesse

Kerry Isherwood
 

LJ & mods,

Have u considered injectables such as Adequan or Legend? Because my IR mare cannot have oral joint supps I give Legend (hyaluronic acid) IV every 28 days. Some horses do better on Adequan. Both have excellent results but would prob have to be administered by your vet (unless u or your BO are proficient in IV/IM medications).

Mods--is there any contraindication with either med for IR and/or PPID?

Kerry in NY


Re: j herb vs prevacox

Lorna Cane
 

>   Was I wrong not to consider j herb before the prevacox? Can xrays tell us which one of these would be most effective?  


Lj, did you see Dr. Kellon's message to you on the Horsekeeping list? Just in case you missed it:


" If this horse's problem was 9/10 hock pain, the Previcox would have had a clear effect by now, but not with pain related to endocrinopathic laminitis. That pain would easily explain why the horse seems "depressed" and would not respond to the adaptogens in APF.  Adequate pergolide to control ACTH together with Jiaogulan to support circulation would be a better approach."



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: j herb vs prevacox

Lorna Cane
 

Is the Previcox making him comfortable ?

>I started prevacox because Jesse is old,24, and a former hunter jumper. with arthritis and creakiness, and not moving well. 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: Fourflex for IR/ppid horses?

Lorna Cane
 



>Has anyone ever heard of fourflex?  


Not recommended for IR horses.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: Cornell testing and exercise before the testing

Lorna Cane
 



>Will be interested to see if vet thinks it's hock or hoof pain..

Lj,on a scale of 1-10, 10 being sound, 1 being in a lot of pain,where would you place Jesse?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




j herb vs prevacox

lj friedman
 

I started prevacox because Jesse is old,24, and a former hunter jumper. with arthritis and creakiness, and not moving well.   Was I wrong not to consider j herb before the prevacox? Can xrays tell us which one of these would be most effective?   ( I know he eats the prevacox tablet  without incident)   lj friedman san diego nov 2014.. ''



 


ECHistory8



Fourflex for IR/ppid horses?

lj friedman
 

Has anyone ever heard of fourflex?  My bo uses it and suggests I use it with Jesse

lj friedman san diego nov 2014

Fourflex Equine Joint Supplements - Shermar Enterprises



92581 - 92600 of 282393