Date   

Re: Newly diagnosed PPID mare

tara sullivan
 

Great advice. Thank you again.  And thank you, Kerry, for the encouraging words and thoughts.  It would be great to have my ole mare back...problem is....I am so busy with the boy...ain't got time to ever really get her going again.  I need that elusive 28 hr day!

Tara NY 2015
ECHistory8

 


Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

beverly meyer
 

Oops, I didn't finish my sentence before...
I meant to write - thanks Dr. Kellon. I totally agree about not adding more herbs than needed. If I read this right, you're saying that "diluting the action" might mean giving 2 herbs/substances if 1 is all that's needed, and that 2 might not be studied together as one alone is.
In Chinese Medicine we might use the term "diluting the action" slightly differently. As in, treating a "Fire" condition such as inflammation, heat and fever with cooling "Water" herbs, but then also giving a Fire herb. Which would dilute the action of the prescribed Cooling herbs!
Glad to understand the difference in meaning.
Beverly 6/14


Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon. I totally agree.
Beverly 6/14

--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: J herb

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Lj,

Have you tried doing an archive search and/or checking the Files for information on Jiaogulan (J-Herb)?

Here is a link to the File. You will find a lot of information in the Document "Jiaogulan Doses & Precautions" which will most likely answer most of your questions and more.

Kathy Brinkerhoff
SE/WI  10/12

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 







Re: J herb

lj friedman
 

I asked this but not sure I got a reply yet. Can J herb be given with Prevacox and prascend?

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Mov-Ease

Nancy C
 

Hi Casey

Hope you saw Dr Kellon's response to Beverly.

Research was done by the company prior to releasing the product. Recommend you call them.

Please also see March 2011 Horse Journal for more in-the-barn testing info. I believe you can purchase back issues and/or on-line access to their library.  You could also ask the company to share the results.

Let us know what you find out.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  Fructans were a highly popular theory of the cause of laminitis approximately 10 years ago. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <macivor19@...> wrote :



In that vein, does anyone have information on why Mov-Ease, which has a great track record, is not indicated with quercetin, curcumin, milk thistle, boswellia, devils claw, cats claw, pine bark extract? Is this from research, anecdotal evidence, or a best guess? By whom?


Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Can anyone direct me to the studies on Quercitin or Curcumin
Bioflavonoids "diluting the action" of other bioflavonoids or herbs?

= = = = = = = = = =

The precaution not to mix certain bioflavonoids is based on the fact there are hundreds, if not more, of these chemicals in nature and their activity depends on their structure.  While structural similarities might give many different bioflavonoid compounds the ability to interact with the same enzymes or DNA, they will not all have equivalent effects.  When a compound is identified that has a particularly potent effect on a particular function, it is ridiculous to mix that with a similar chemical compound unless you know for sure the mixture will give an enhanced effect rather than a diminished one.  More often than not the effect of a combination will be unknown, hence the precaution.

To begin to understand this, start here:

http://pharmrev.aspetjournals.org/content/52/4/673.long

Yellow does NOT automatically = quercitin.  Then name flavonoid (aka bioflavonoid) derives from the Latin flavus, which means yellow.  The whole class is yellow.  For example, here's rutin:

http://www.zd-bio.com/en/proview.asp?id=3

Observations (aka anecdotes) by any individual, whether you, or me, or anyone else, have limited value in their raw form. What gives them more credence is things like control of extraneous factors, statistics and sheer numbers. If you know of 20 cases where X + Y had no harmful effects compared to X or Y alone, but someone else has 200, or 2000 cases, where the combination was not as effective, what would the take home message be?  If you knew from knowledge about their structure that X and Y could bind to a particular enzyme and the effect of X was very potent but the effect of Y was unknown or weaker, would you play around with this in a clinical case?

All we are doing here is trying to share the most accurate information we have based on both over a decade of experience with horses with these conditions and the scientific literature.  If you have question or a challenge that's great, but it's up to you to back up your claim with the literature or a large equine database, not up to us to dispute it.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
 


Mov-Ease

Casey James <macivor19@...>
 

ECIR tries very hard to base information on sound research, and if that does not exist, then on anecdotal evidence and sometimes we’re left with making a best guess. I agree with Nancy that it takes a long time for current research to filter down. I heard a talk in 1985 about MSM and the researcher said it takes about 10 years for research to go “mainstream”. Probably most of us hadn’t heard much about MSM till 1995.

In that vein, does anyone have information on why Mov-Ease, which has a great track record, is not indicated with quercetin, curcumin, milk thistle, boswellia, devils claw, cats claw, pine bark extract? Is this from research, anecdotal evidence, or a best guess? By whom? Have our members found that the good effects of Mov-Ease were lessened by using one of counter indicated substances?

I love this group; one of the reasons is that it is OK to ask questions.

casey oregon 2015


Re: Commercial minerals

Chanda
 

How many bags of Standlee pellets to you buy at a time?  When I inquired about sugar/starch levels, I was told they just do averages for their information, and if I need more specific data that I would need to test.  However, bags with the same batch number all have the same product in them, so if I buy or reserve a whole pallet, then all bags from that pallet/batch number would test the same.  [Don't know of many stores that would reserve a pallet to wait for testing results, but with as much as you are going through daily, I'm going to guess you probably buy a pallet at a time and could test from each pallet to then get minerals to balance.]

It's possible since Standlee is based in Idaho, that CA Trace ( California Trace - Nutritional Support for Horses ) or the Arizona Regional Mix from HorseTech might be a close balance for you (or you can always get custom mix, I think Horsetech does that).  If you choose to test a few batches,  you might find after doing so, that they run similar enough to use the same mineral mix for all the Standlee Timothy pellets you buy (might also find the opposite and that they vary quite a bit from batch to batch).  [P.S. most my horses love the Standlee Timothy pellets, except for my Cushing's gelding, he's incredibly picky, and can take or leave pretty much everything I try with him, although he does eat our homegrown hay readily (wish I could pellet that and try it on him).]


Chanda

MT 9/04 


Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

Nancy C
 

Please allow me to add that it is not unusual to hear things on and from this group that you don't her anywhere else.  Thank the heavens.

Sometimes the research is just wrong, or poorly thought out, or making assumptions and correlations out of a belief system.

Sometimes, as with fructan vs simple sugar, or with seasonal rise, or special issues for mares, or IR itself,  or many, many other areas, the research eventually catches up to what members have reported here for years from their actual, well-tracked and recorded experiences.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  With over 12,000 members and thousands of detailed case histories the ECIR Group has made it possible to spot patterns, many of which have been confirmed later by formal study.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

 I cannot find any studies that say what I hear here


Re: Commercial minerals

Nancy C
 

Since the bulk of his intake is th Standlee, I would test those or try to obtain info from the company.  In order to make it effective you'd want to have a pallet or so from the same lot to which you can then balance the minerals.  IOW testing one or two bags is like testing your 50 bales of hay.

The issue with teh Standlee ismamking sure the ESC and Strach is where it needs to be.

An alternative is to use Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes. Low ESC and Starch, balanced minerals.  If you have a Triple Crown Dealer near you, you can get these.

Alfalfa Cubes / Alfalfa Timothy Cubes - Ontario Dehy Inc.

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Blood flow to the foot passes to the rear of the foot, providing support and dissipating vibrational energy. See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 










---In EquineCushings@..., <mktnr3@...> wrote :


He is getting 19 Lbs of Stanlee Timothy pellets and 4 Lb of Stabl 1 daily.


What should I do to balance this?




Thanks,

Merle, Dec 2014,  East Texas

ECHistory8



Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

Again, since it is proprietary, recommend calling/contacting My Best Horse.  Let us know what you find out.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

What study shows they dilute MovEase
secret ingredients?


Commercial minerals

M K
 

Hi,  I've said before that my hay comes from various sources, only 50 bales at a time and so would not be very useful to have tested.


Also, my Cushings horse is eating minimal hay due to chewing difficulties.


He is getting 19 Lbs of Stanlee Timothy pellets and 4 Lb of Stabl 1 daily.


What should I do to balance this?




Thanks,

Merle, Dec 2014,  East Texas

ECHistory8



Re: Phyto-Quench substitute & response to Nancy

beverly meyer
 

Thanks to the Moderators working on my poorly worded questions on bioflavonoids.
I've spent many hours looking at Movease , PhytoQuench, the Meadowseet Acres Anti-Inflammatory product I use and have mentioned, and others in NEO files, the web and my own Herbology or Nutrition textbooks. I cannot find any studies that say what I hear here.
That basically: "Quercitin as something to avoid using with Mov-Ease as Quercitin could dilute it's mode of action". Or even more broadly, also stated yesterday: "MovEase is not indicated with: Quercetin, Curcumin, Milk thistle, Boswellia, Devils Claw, Cats Claw, Pine Bark extract. As those may dilute the mechanism of action" .
Can anyone direct me to the studies on Quercitin or Curcumin Bioflavonoids "diluting the action" of other bioflavonoids or herbs? I use both of these in my clinic daily and am awed at their effectiveness on allergies and inflammation. What study shows they dilute MovEase secret ingredients?
Thanks for the research and guidance.
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas


CASE HISTORIES: WHY THEY ARE IMPORTANT

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Your horse's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the ECIR List. A well filled out and up-to-date Case History is critical for obtaining timely and relevant advice from the volunteers. 

Provide as much information as possible but please follow the directions in the headers. There are sections to enter data on physical symptoms, diet, exercise, blood tests, owner observations, past veterinary care or anything that you feel may be relevant to your horse's condition. If it is your first time filling out a case history please follow the directions in the Guidelines for Filling out Case Histories. You can also consult the Example Form to understand how the information should be presented so that it flows and does not become a puzzle for volunteers to decipher. 

Please use standard units of measurement. To ensure the usefulness of your blood work results, be sure to include the type of units used by the lab and the lab's normal ranges. This will not only help the volunteers to help your horse, but will provide scientific data to help the ECIR group gain the trust of science-based equine professionals and shape future protocols.

Don't delay posting your case history if you are missing some pieces, it can be updated when you have the information you are still gathering. However, the faster your case history is up and completed, the faster you will receive support from the Volunteers or Dr. Kellon.

Link to additional information about your horse. Links within your case history that take volunteers to photos, videos, x-rays, specific messages in the ECIR groups or other sources of information can help support staff better understand your horse's situation. This means you and your horse will benefit from answers faster. 

Include your case history link when posting questions in the group so volunteers can find your information quickly and easily and your question can be answered more quickly.

Please leave all of your information posted when the time comes that you or your horse no longer needs the ECIR List's advice.  There is no better way to “give back” to the group for the help you and your horse have received.  Your horse's information will be used in the future to confirm or help form ECIR protocols and following your story will help other members find answers for their horses.  An often overlooked but very important way to thank you the ECIR Group, is to add your information to the databases and polls.  These are vital to gathering important data to help Dr. Kellon form protocols. 

 

Forms, an example and instructions for posting Case Histories can be found here.


Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists



Re: Newly diagnosed PPID mare

Maggie
 

You're welcome, Tara!

I had one more thought.  If you are going to use Prascend, the way that we recommend you give 0.25mg is by breaking the tablet in half (it is scored for that) and then crushing half, adding it to 10cc of water, shake well, give 5 cc (which would be 0.25 mg) and save the rest in the frig for the next day.  When you are giving the tablet itself, you want to make sure that no matter how you administer it, that she actually eats it.  Some people hide it in a grape or a prune or a tiny piece of carrot with the middle cored out.  Even hiding it a small amount of hand fed safe feed with the pill in the middle may work.  Lots more ideas if you have an issue when the time comes!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 



Re: Newly diagnosed PPID mare

tara sullivan
 

Thank you so much for the quick response.  I ordered APF and am waiting for my Vet to prescribe the prascend.  My mare is, and has been, just fine....she just looks old beyond her years.  It would be great to reverse the visual clock for her just a little.
Tara Sullivan
NY 2015


Re: J herb

Nancy C
 

Hi lj

I have used jherb for this reason not only for myself but also for my now deceased compensated IR gelding.

He was coming on 31 when he passed. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: It is impossible to tell how “good” a hay is by just looking at it.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org



---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

So I ordered j herb for Jesse just in case he needs it for a laminitic episode.. Upon reading a file that states signs an effective dose has been reached include:

brighter more alert attitude

more energy, spontaneous movement




lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8



Re: Newly diagnosed PPID mare

Kerry Isherwood
 

Oh Tara, so sorry to hear this! My old Premarin rescue, Pinky, is PPID & severely IR and is doing sooooo well on 1.5mg Prascend -- IR now very well controlled (no soaking hay anymore, etc). Honestly, under tack, she's never felt better in the 11 yrs ive had her. She's even back to competing & is more supple & jumping better than I've ever seen!

Hoping your mare bounces back so well too.

Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 2014 PPID/IR
Tofurky Nov 2014 IR


Re: Newly diagnosed PPID mare

Maggie
 

Hi Tara,

Thanks for filling out a CH on Divina.  Here is a good link to her CH. Please include this one in your signature.


Well, having a proper diagnosis is half the battle!  Now you know how to treat.  With an ACTH of 76.3 and insulin/glucose of 34.17 and 100, you know that you have a diagnosis of both PPID and also IR at this time.  Her leptin level is just under 4, so just inside the normal range.  That helps to determine that it's probably Divina's elevated ACTH that is driving the insulin level up, rather than her being IR at baseline.  Also, TB's are not usually IR, so that's another factor in helping to differentiate.

So you need to get her started on pergolide now.  To avoid the "pergolide veil" (depression, lack of appetite) that some, but not all horses experience when first starting on the drug, we recommend 2 things.  One is that you want to wean her onto the drug slowly.  Start with 0.25 mg for 3 or 4 days and increase by 0.25 mg every 3 or 4 days until you reach your target dose, which is often 1 mg to start.  After she is on the target dose of pergolide for 3 or 4 weeks you want to retest her ACTH to see if that dose is controlling her ACTH.  One helpful thing that you can do to determine if you are at your target dose is to monitor her symptoms.  Here's a post by Patti than can help you to do that:

The other thing that we have found is very helpful in avoiding the "pergolide veil" is a product called APF.  It can be purchased at some local tack/feed stores and through online catalogs and also on their website here:  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html   

Keep in mind that many horses need additional pergolide during the seasonal rise to keep their ACTH under control.  The seasonal rise is a time of year in the fall (in the Northern hemisphere) when all horses have a natural rise in their ACTH, but PPID horses can have an exaggerated and prolonged rise their ACTH.  Read more about the seasonal rise on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise   In fact, you should read the entire website as it contains some very valuable information on both PPID and IR.  It's also a great place to send your vet.

You should really consider getting the xrays and some hoof pictures posted of Divina's feet, so that one of our hoof folks can help you to evaluate her trim and give you guidance.  A proper trim is a very important step in the face of metabolic issues.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 



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