Date   

Re: Diet help!

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Melissa -

It sounds like for now, some loose minerals and beet pulp or soy hulls may be the route to go? Plus the magnesium (if using the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix), flax, and salt.


Yup - sounds good to me!  For flavouring options check here (Picky Eaters file, about 3/4 of the way down in the " 8 -Pulling it together" folder):

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/

For the Vitamin E, many of us just toss the capsules into the carrier.  If the carrier is damp, they will soften and the horses won't even notice.  Some horses like to seek the capsules out and pop them.  If they refuse the capsules for the first week or so, persevering will often result in acceptance (like toddlers); or you may be forced to piercing and squeezing (pain in the neck!)

ODTB cubes would be absolutely fabulous, but Otter stopped carrying them (argh!) But maybe if enough of us ask they will start again. (hope springs eternal.....)

Cheers!


 





 
 
 


Re: Free Choice Feeding an IR Horse

Chanda
 

Not Bonnie,

  But Hay Pillow has 1/2" mesh available.  Slow Feeder Hay Bags - The Hay Pillow, Inc.    I have a couple for my minis in 1/2" and 3/4" and while they can get it out of the 1/2", they are less frustrated with the 3/4".

Chanda

MT 9/04

 


Re: jherb, cox inhibitors, anti-inflammatory herbs

beverly meyer
 

Oh yes Nancy, it was Maggie that helped me with links.
Thanks for your search tips. I wrote those in my file for the future.
Beverly 6/14


Re: Free Choice Feeding an IR Horse

Bonnie
 

From Econets.  I see today they are featuring a new product: heavy duty mesh.

Eco Nets - Mesh Hay Nets - Feed Horses Naturally with Net Hay Bags

 



Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08


Re: Free Choice Feeding an IR Horse

Teri
 

Hi Bonnie,

Where did you find the bags with 1/2 inch holes?  I have a hoover 'Fatlinger' with very educated lips. :-)  The 1 inch holes don't slow her down nearly enough!

BTW...I tried the free choice feeding from smhn on two IR greedy eaters.  Didn't work.  Quickly went back to weighing their meals.  

Teri and Stormy...and Kelsey the eating machine
Indy 2012


<<He has very educated lips. Half inch bags might prove too challenging for larger animals but if introduced gradually, with other sizes to eat from, might be used by big horse owners too.




OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Monty recovered from the April trim within a week and we were back to walking, but after I did a touch up trim, he turned up sore again the day after. (We walked after the trim without a problem).  So I figured his pain may have been coincidental to the last 2 trims and was instead due to him nibbling grass through his paddock fence.  Barn owner put up a temporary electric cable inside the fencing. He's better, willing to walk in soft arena, but not willing to walk on road still, and it's been a month since last trim and a couple of weeks since the new fence.


I have been anxious to re-test his ACTH, gluconse, insulin, leptin for the past month, but have been way-laid by this soreness.  New vet is scheduled for this coming Tuesday, as I thought his pain would have resolved itself by now, but he's still a bit ouchy.  


What to do?  Wait or go ahead and test? 




Thanks,

SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: ECHistory8



Re: Dandruff in the ball of the tail

Kerry Isherwood
 

The dandruff u describe is normal. Leave it alone. The more you futz with it the more irritated it becomes which may cause horse to want to rub its high end. Then you have a much worse aesthetic than a little hidden dandruff.

Even when I show-groomed & every other square inch of horseflesh was coiffed to the nines, we never dared stir up the hornets nest of dandruff on the tailbone, lest you find all your braiding rubbed out the second you turned your back.

However, do make sure to periodically check your horse's tailbone for ticks if they are in your area of the country.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Drought-stressed hay -- too rich?

Nancy C
 

To add some personal experience....

In the Northeast 2012 was a similar spring to this one. No rain in April. Majority of growth in May.  For 10 or so years prior my hay had always been well below 10%.  In 2012 i hay cut at 4 AM, the ESC came back at 9%+.

Spent the following winter soaking.  Pre and post labs showed ESC lowered by nearly 50%. In the research that has been done here and in other places, the amount can vary and the average amount of reduction is 30%.

If the hay comes back high again this year, will be looking seriously at all ODTB Cubes versus a year of soaking in sub zero weather.

Still hoping the hay deities will smile on us....

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :




 Just soak it and be vigilant.  If you suspect a problem, just go to 100% cubes until you can get safe hay.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Drought-stressed hay -- too rich?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




The bottom line is there are far too many variables to begin to predict what's in this hay, all the way down to the  weather when cut and time of day.  Nitrate is a concern with stressed forage too but in your favor is the relatively small percentage of the diet.  Just soak it and be vigilant.  If you suspect a problem, just go to 100% cubes until you can get safe hay.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Dandruff in the ball of the tail

lj friedman
 

Any association with Cushings/IR and dandruff in the tail.. The dandruff is in the ball of the tail and cant be combed out,. The bo asked me to get her tea tree oil shampoo and she has mineral oil or coconut oil?  I forgot which...    lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


Re: Final Post

Carol
 

     I want to add that my life got a lot less overwhelming when I joined this group, with treating a Cushing's horse that the vets were failing at and contradicting each other. My head was spinning with the rotating advice from each of the previous treatment schools of thought. When I got here it was focus and pin down the facts time. Case history finally opened my eyes. Writing it down and seeing the special feeding that I had gotten accustomed to as normal over the years showed me how unusual his condition was - to be skin and bones on that amount of food and additives. And the prescribed senior feeds were the worst thing and had to go. He got better from each thing I followed here and lived a more comfortable life. Cushing's didin't even take him out, EPM did later. Compare that to before this group's help, he was going to be put down for Cushing's failure alone. 
     With a vet who would tell you to quit the most successful Cushing's treatment and research group of all time, I hope you don't go through what I did with outdated modes of treatment that just take your money and stall to keep you their client until the inevitable day of put down. 




Re: Diet help!

Melissa Coupar
 

Hi Jaini, 
Thank you so so much for your advice! And thank you, I think she is quite lovely too! haha. She is a Morgan x QH :) 

Yes I think that I can only get my stuff from Otter Co-op. I am not familiar with Champion. 
Wow that is very good to know about the Step 7 (I was informed by their company that it was a great option for PPID/IR horses- you really have to be your advocate apparently). So I should be getting her off of that fairly quickly-yikes! 
It sounds like for now, some loose minerals and beet pulp or soy hulls may be the route to go? Plus the magnesium (if using the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix), flax, and salt. 
I've been wanting to add the Vit E, but am unsure how to go about it. Do you poke the capsule and squeeze out the oil/E at every meal? I am at a boarding facility, so slightly limited in my options. Although I could do that with a handful of beet pulp when I am out at the barn, as I am there every day. 

Another question, I noticed in another discussion someone mentioned the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balanced Cubes... do you think that that is a potential route?

Thank you again! I so appreciate your time!
I will definitely get on the further hay testing!



Melissa Coupar, BC, Canada
May, 2015


---In EquineCushings@..., <janieclougher@...> wrote :

Hi, Melissa - Chloe is lovely!  Thanks for the case history - good work.  What breed is she?

I went and double-checked the All Phase stats.  Starch in the products varies from 10% to 12% (much, much too high for any IR horse, even fed at the recommended rates) and ESC from 5% to 7% or so. I can tell you from experience that one of my mares can't tolerate more than half a pound (250 grams) of the Pro Fibre Crunch, which is only 4.5% starch and 4% ESC. (so she doesn't get any, to her annoyance)

The Step 7 supplement comes in at a whopping 29% starch, unfortunately.

Since you are in Victoria, I assume you can only get stuff from Otter Co-op, not from Champion?  The Otter beet pulp pellets are quite variable in molasses content; interestingly, my horses won't touch them, although they will eat the Pro Form and the Champion beet pulp pellets just fine. (all being rinsed, soaked, rinsed, of course) If you can get the Step 7, you should be able to get Pro Form beet pulp (same company)  They also make soy hull pellets.

To determine what minerals to feed, testing the hay is better than blood samples (except selenium and vitamin E) The other minerals don't show up as abnormal in the blood until they are seriously and wildly out of whack in the tissues.  The only real way to check mineral stores in the body is by liver biopsy, but nobody in their right mind would do that as a routine check! So testing the hay is the way to go (although doing blood selenium and E is still nice, especially if you need to check for excess selenium)

I use Hi Pro for a quick turn-around test if I am trying to figure out what hay to buy, but once I get the hay home I send a sample of 20 or so cores to Nutrilytical in Calgary. http://www.nutrilytical.ca/  They are affiliated with Equi Analytical in New York, and will send the sample on.   Ask for Trainer # 603

In the meantime, commercial supplements that are good to use while waiting for the analysis are California Trace and Arizona Copper Complete.  Both are from the States, unfortunately, so shipping is a killer.

In Canada, the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix is good for Alberta hay (but too high in manganese for BC hay), although there is selenium in there as well:  https://www.madbarn.com/product/madbarn-trace-mineral-pak/ There are no major minerals in it, but it is easy to add a teaspoon or so of magnesium oxide.  The owner of Mad Barn (whose name escapes me at the moment) has also expressed an interest in doing custom mixes for Canadians.

Other choices are Dr. Reed's No. 2 mix, and Hoffman's Performance mix (again, too much manganese for BC, and one has to add magnesium)

Vitamin E has to be touching oil to be properly absorbed, so most of us use 400 IU capsules with soya oil in them. One has to read the label, because some are manufactured with just glycerine and no oil.  I get mine from National Nutrition Canada http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/

Hope that helps!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

EC Case History 1


 
 


Drought-stressed hay -- too rich?

Kerry Isherwood
 

i went to pick up the last of my "safe" hay and its bad, all of it, leaving only this year's first cut which was severely drought stressed. It was cut last week (dont know what time of day). Its a fine-stem mixed grass/timothy (no alfalfa) stunted from drought w lots of seed heads and it was baled very dry and the farm has been feeding it out of the field without issues. Ive tested this farm's hay in years past & its always well-below 10% ESC & starch, so my questions are:

How much (in general) does drought-stress affect ESC & starch? Is the approx 30% reduction of sugars with soaking enough of a safeguard, or is it still too variable to consider that a safe option?

The good news is that both of my IRs' diets is 10-15lbs/day ODTB cubes and the long-stem component comprises only about 5-lbs/day as a boredom buster. The bad news is that i cant get an alternative hay until next week bc, of course, I waited til im down to my last bale to get the next load (sigh). Obviously i cant get an analysis done before feeding, either.

Opinions needed.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Free Choice Feeding an IR Horse

 

The short answer to your question is, "No." You can't trust your horse to self-regulate because horses are horses and they defy logic! 

All joking aside, this formula (free choice feeding IR-leptin resistance (LR)) seems destined to fail more than most.

I too, have trouble with Getty's over-generalization and over-simplification of leptin resistance. To be sure, excessive forage restriction can be as harmful as free choice but there is no reason to go from one extreme to the other - all things in moderation. Feeding 1.5% - 2.0% body weight (or better yet, feed according to calorie needs and calories in your hay!) is moderate and I wouldn't consider that to be "restriction."

So, before I would hang my hat on free choice feeding as the solution to IR/LR, I would turn to the very best, most effective, least expensive, simply miraculous, amazing, appetite reducing method that (even more amazing) everyone agrees on (wow!) and that is...

....wait for it...

Exercise! Exercise Improves Insulin and Leptin Sensitivity in Hypothalamus of Wistar Rats

 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO
Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Inc.
Dec 2005 - Missouri, USA
 


Re: Missy the Pony

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lisa -  For any IR or PPID equine, the safest diet is soaked hay,, plus flax for the omega 3's, vitamin E, and salt.  Beet pulp is a good carrier for the minerals, flax, E and salt. A good mineral supplement when you can't test your hay is California Trace Plus, or Arizona Copper Complete. This won't be perfect, but if you can't test, you can't test.

Another option is Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes, distributed by Triple Crown.  If you can get Triple Crown products at your feed store, you should be able to order in the ODTB cubes.  They are a complete feed with regard to minerals, so you only need to add flax, vitamin E and salt. They can be moistened or soaked for those with tooth issues. Because you are feeding a mini and a pony, these can be an economical feed, very little fuss or muss, and very safe.  Then just give soaked hay for play time.

Nuzu Stabul 1 is a pelleted feed that is also a complete feed, but the starch is a tad higher than the hay cubes -  4.5%.  This may be too much for sensitive horses, but certainly can be used as a taste tempter.  Triple Crown Lite can also be used as a taste tempter in small amounts.

So - the only safe bagged foods for IR and PPID horses is a short, short list: ODTB cubes; Nuzu Stabul 1 pellets; Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage (NOT TC Safe Starch pelleted).  And that's it.  You can also use rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp, and soy hull pellets.  There is no point in buying any kind of other bagged feeds, no matter what the label says, if there isn't a guarantee of ESC and starch levels.

Wait!  I told a lie (but not on purpose).  I just looked at the LMF website, and if you want to use the Low NSC Complete, that is also a safe feed, and actually looks pretty good:  http://lmffeeds.com/products/low-nsc-complete/
 
It is also a complete food, and so like the hay cubes and Stabul 1 you would only need to add vitamin E, salt and flax.  You can then feed the soaked hay as something for chew time, especially if you have it in a small mesh hay net.

Just a reminder for the blood work: non-fasting; spun, separated and frozen asap.  More info here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/

And if you ever need to look up feed values, there are some in the files here:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/

Tough to give a short answer to your original question about whether to give more hay or more Low NSC Complete without more information.  Age, tooth condition, weight etc.  Do you have a case history on the Missies?




 





Is it better for her to have more of the soaked/rinsed hay, and less of the LMF Low Carb Complete?  Or more of the Low Carb Complete and less of the soaked hay?  

Thanks for any help,

Lisa and Missy the Pony


Re: Diet help!

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Melissa - Chloe is lovely!  Thanks for the case history - good work.  What breed is she?

I went and double-checked the All Phase stats.  Starch in the products varies from 10% to 12% (much, much too high for any IR horse, even fed at the recommended rates) and ESC from 5% to 7% or so. I can tell you from experience that one of my mares can't tolerate more than half a pound (250 grams) of the Pro Fibre Crunch, which is only 4.5% starch and 4% ESC. (so she doesn't get any, to her annoyance)

The Step 7 supplement comes in at a whopping 29% starch, unfortunately.

Since you are in Victoria, I assume you can only get stuff from Otter Co-op, not from Champion?  The Otter beet pulp pellets are quite variable in molasses content; interestingly, my horses won't touch them, although they will eat the Pro Form and the Champion beet pulp pellets just fine. (all being rinsed, soaked, rinsed, of course) If you can get the Step 7, you should be able to get Pro Form beet pulp (same company)  They also make soy hull pellets.

To determine what minerals to feed, testing the hay is better than blood samples (except selenium and vitamin E) The other minerals don't show up as abnormal in the blood until they are seriously and wildly out of whack in the tissues.  The only real way to check mineral stores in the body is by liver biopsy, but nobody in their right mind would do that as a routine check! So testing the hay is the way to go (although doing blood selenium and E is still nice, especially if you need to check for excess selenium)

I use Hi Pro for a quick turn-around test if I am trying to figure out what hay to buy, but once I get the hay home I send a sample of 20 or so cores to Nutrilytical in Calgary. http://www.nutrilytical.ca/  They are affiliated with Equi Analytical in New York, and will send the sample on.   Ask for Trainer # 603

In the meantime, commercial supplements that are good to use while waiting for the analysis are California Trace and Arizona Copper Complete.  Both are from the States, unfortunately, so shipping is a killer.

In Canada, the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix is good for Alberta hay (but too high in manganese for BC hay), although there is selenium in there as well:  https://www.madbarn.com/product/madbarn-trace-mineral-pak/ There are no major minerals in it, but it is easy to add a teaspoon or so of magnesium oxide.  The owner of Mad Barn (whose name escapes me at the moment) has also expressed an interest in doing custom mixes for Canadians.

Other choices are Dr. Reed's No. 2 mix, and Hoffman's Performance mix (again, too much manganese for BC, and one has to add magnesium)

Vitamin E has to be touching oil to be properly absorbed, so most of us use 400 IU capsules with soya oil in them. One has to read the label, because some are manufactured with just glycerine and no oil.  I get mine from National Nutrition Canada http://www.nationalnutrition.ca/

Hope that helps!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

EC Case History 1




 


 


 





.....Looking forward to hearing more about your experience with feed up here in BC, Jaini! I understand the beetpulp is good, but I have also heard the Otter Coop beetpulp can have huge ranges in molasses levels... so not too sure how that affects things. ......
.

Melissa Coupar, BC, Canada
May, 2015
 


Re: Discounted Lab Work

 

That is probably it; I didn't ask the details - I was just so happy to be surprised by a lower-than-expected vet bill for a change!

Jill & Khari in Idaho
Member since 2010


Re: Final Post

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, K - I am sorry to hear this.  You are correct - the information IS overwhelming at first. A lot of us approach it like eating an elephant - one  bite at a time.

If you only take one thing away from your time here, it should be that the approach to management is Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim.  The information will always be here in the files any time you would like to take a look; and there is also very good information on the website:  ecirhorse.org , which you can look at any time, without needing to be a member of the list.

I am truly sorry that you feel that there were "flat out arguments"  I saw the posts rather as trying to give information.  The internet can be quite difficult in the sense that one cannot hear intonation or tone of voice, and hence what looks like "argument" can be merely an attempt to educate.

I am even more sorry that your vet advised you leave!  The ecirhorse website has a ton of information suitable for veterinary reading, without having to join the main group.

On this list, it is truly our main effort to help owners manage their horses as best they can.  It is about the horse.  Not everyone can do everything that is advised here, of course, because everyone is in a different situation. People just do the  best they can.

Good luck to you and Teshan, and big hugs to Teshan.





---In EquineCushings@..., <kleonaptra@...> wrote :

Back in April when bloods were taken my vet advised me to leave the group. She said the overload of information was overwealming and that Teshan is well managed. I am now taking that advice. I have experienced worse anxiety over the past few days than I have in 5 years. 



Thankyou very much and good luck with all of your ponies. 


I apologise if this double posted I lost my internet connection.


K

Western Sydney NSW Australia

Teshan 3/2/2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/search/photos?query=Teshan#zax/albums_629885947 (photo link)

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kim%20and%20Teshan/



Re: jherb, cox inhibitors, anti-inflammatory herbs

Nancy C
 

Not sure if it was me that sent you to the files, but you are welcome!

When you are in the FILES section...

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files

 

....try playing around with the search box at the top of the web page.

so you could put "pain" in the window at teh top of the page and get all docs that reference pain. Or "Nitric Oxide".  Or "salt"  Or "ALCar"  or "acetyl L carnitine" or...

You get the idea.

Learning how to use the advance search button when in the message archives can cut down on the messages a bit.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Some mares are refractory to good control of IR by the usual diet measures.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 








Re: jherb, cox inhibitors, anti-inflammatory herbs

beverly meyer
 

Thank you Nancy!! This was so helpful.
I have a hard time with the files indexing, and instead end up scrolling through 10 years of messages on a keyword like Jiagulan. These links were useful and of course sent me off on another 4 hours of reading!
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas

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