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Re: Diet help!

Melissa Coupar
 

Hi Lavinia, 
Thank you so much for the reply. It is a big learning curve, isn't it :) I sort of assumed if there was such a great all-in-one product available for these IR horses, everyone would be using it! I have to stop talking to these feed supplier reps, I am too easy of a sell hah! Glad I stuck with the basic package then. 
I am slowly making my way through some of the archived discussions and documents (I am a Master's student, so crave any non-school reading I can get-though there isn't much time for it haha!), and was able to find some discussion around the questionable effects of other minerals/vitamins. Sorry if I am repeating some of the questions that have been asked in the past, don't want to waste anyone's time or resources, just learning the system still!

Thank you again for the help! 

Warm regards,


Re: Diet help!

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hi Melissa,

You'll learn as you go along how to read labels so that you won't get drawn in by the advertising rhetoric. More isn't always necessary or better. The best product is going to be the one that most closely matches and complements the excesses and deficiencies in your particular diet. The kitchen sink approach is never the best or most economical.

Not Jaini here but the Omneity IR mix is not suitable for IR horses. It contains a number of additional vitamins/minerals that aren't recommended as they may worsen IR  (niacin, riboflavin, thiamine); A couple of the ingredients are either contaminated by iron or enhance iron absorption, which is already overabundant in an IR horse (dicalcium phosphate, ascorbic acid/vit C).

A number of ingredients that either aren't needed at all or have questionable effectiveness: added potassium which all hays have an excess of; vit A, E and D, which are fat soluble vitamins and aren't well absorbed unless in contact with fat; chromium which is only needed for hays grown on alkaline soils.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>In Canada, the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix is good for Alberta hay (but too high in manganese for BC hay), although there is selenium in there as well:  https://www.madbarn.com/product/madbarn-trace-mineral-pak/


Re: Phyto Quench and ALCAR question

corrine haffner
 

Hi Dr Kellon & Nancy

I got the supplements and he's been on them for 4 days i think,he was a 2 on the lameness scale, then monday morning he came up more sore. I did take his pulse yesterday morning and it was 60 beats per minute,but he was shaking and very sore stiff,at the time.

Took it this morning and it was down to 54 beats per minute. I do always take note of how he is lameness wise in AM and again in PM,was staying a steady 2. Now he's at a 3 even today,been doing capiasin 3 times a day when he was at a 2. Now he's more sore doing capiasin 4 times a day.

Will start a journal on his pulse,lameness,and how much capiasin is used per day and what he eat in a days time. On average the last 3 days its 14lbs of soaked hay and 2lbs of ODTB cubes,a pound AM and PM,doesn't finish either meal at a pound each,leaves a 1/3 of it in pan.  

Was eating 20 lbs of soaked hay went on strike and didn't eat the cubes or pellets for 3 days,that was last week. He's in my back yard so i can keep track of everything,don't have to depend on anyone else.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Psyllium for sand colic

iluvzhorses@...
 

I use this from Vitacost....

Lisa and Louie
Eastern NC 


Re: Phyto Quench and ALCAR question

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




There's a good chance the shaking was from being chilled and fatigued.  He probably didn't spend as much time down as he needed to because of the rain.  See how he is after a few hours in his stall.  It's perfectly all right to give him some down time inside especially if he feels more comfortable there.

When you get your supplements, start to keep a daily journal so you don't lose sight of the bit picture.  Record his pulse every morning, lameness grade when going in and going out, number of times you use capsaicin, how much he eats over a day.

You should be fine with the one dose of PQ twice a day and 11,000 ALCar/day

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :



ECHistory8


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001

 


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Kerry Isherwood
 

Yeah...pretty much what Nancy, and much more succinctly!

Kerry


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Kerry Isherwood
 

From my own experience, my PPID/severe IR mare can be footsore from an aggressive trim even when her insulin/ACTH are well-controlled. I think you need to draw blood *today* to see if the insulin & leptin are elevated, which would tell you to tighten diet/poss increase perg vs normal insulin status & hes sore just from too-aggressive trim.

IMO/E, the glucose & ACTH tests drawn *today* are likely to be higher than normal bc of pain/stress of soreness; you can always call lab to add on a glucose once you get insulin results (cannot w ACTH, however, unless vet draws the special purple top sample & overnights it & puts it on hold w lab, but u may get charged for the special handling...idk)

Furthermore, if todays insulin is high you'll likely have to increase perg (if rest of DDTE is good) and (ideally) be re-testing ACTH in 3-4 weeks for dose assessment

Please note this is from my own experience of just *one* difficult-to-manage PPID/IR case, so i defer to those much more experienced than I for advice. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there to mull over bc your vet was on his/her way....and Im also avoiding going out to mow my lawn!

Good luck,
Kerry


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Thank you so much, Nancy!!  







Re: Psyllium for sand colic

Karen <ket62@...>
 

If you don't need to worry about IR, who has found the best but inexpensive Psyllium?
It's so expensive!! Or any alternative uses that do the same?
Thank you!

Karen in UT


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Nancy C
 

HI Suzanne

If you test today, you'll know where he is right now and it may help you decide what you need to do re: pergolide, diet, trim, etc., to get him back on track.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: To diagnose IR, the ECIR Group recommends a non-fasted, simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin and the use of VA Polytechnic Proxies. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and PPID, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html




Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Thanks for the opinion, Kerry.  That's why I'm confused -- I would think pain would affect everything, the ACTH and the insulin.  So makes me wonder why he's in pain in the first place--is the ACTH not controlled enough to prevent a laminitis attack from eating through the fence?

It makes me wonder if I should experiment w/his Prascend dose before I test and then test in a few weeks after clinical symptoms subside to see where his numbers are at?

SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: ECHistory8

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :


Is it possible to plan for two bloodwork visits, draw blood today for insulin/glucose/leptin to check if these are high & the reason for making him sore-footed, and then a separate visit for ACTH a bit later once the soreness abates? I would think the current discomfort would affect the ACTH...



Re: Phyto Quench and ALCAR question

Nancy C
 

Hi Corrine

I think Dr Kellon has used up to 3 scoops per dose but please do an archived message check.

ALcar can go up to 2 grams per 100 lb of body weight. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Some mares are refractory to good control of IR by the usual diet measures.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org


-

ECHistory8



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Re: Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

Kerry Isherwood
 

Sarah,

Just a quick FYI--

The number you would use is the one where the '<2.0' number is in the sequence of results. The numbers in parentheses are what the lab gives as low/high normal parameters.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Kerry Isherwood
 

Im no expert, so this is a mere opinion--

Is it possible to plan for two bloodwork visits, draw blood today for insulin/glucose/leptin to check if these are high & the reason for making him sore-footed, and then a separate visit for ACTH a bit later once the soreness abates? I would think the current discomfort would affect the ACTH...

IMO,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: OK to Test if Still Ouchy? WAS: Trim Review and Shedding Question

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

I'm reposting this message as vet is scheduled for today and maybe I should cancel?

Maybe my question isn't clear.  Will the lab results be difficult to interpret if draw is taken when he's a bit painful?  I'm assuming I should wait until this clears up, but could bloodwork help me see if his Prascend dose needs tweaking?

Thanks, 
Suzanne


---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :

Monty recovered from the April trim within a week and we were back to walking, but after I did a touch up trim, he turned up sore again the day after. (We walked after the trim without a problem).  So I figured his pain may have been coincidental to the last 2 trims and was instead due to him nibbling grass through his paddock fence.  Barn owner put up a temporary electric cable inside the fencing. He's better, willing to walk in soft arena, but not willing to walk on road still, and it's been a month since last trim and a couple of weeks since the new fence.


I have been anxious to re-test his ACTH, gluconse, insulin, leptin for the past month, but have been way-laid by this soreness.  New vet is scheduled for this coming Tuesday, as I thought his pain would have resolved itself by now, but he's still a bit ouchy.  


What to do?  Wait or go ahead and test? 




Thanks,

SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: ECHistory8



Re: Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

takarri@...
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote :

Hi there

Could one of the experts let me know how I should put Bonnie's insulin result into the IR Calculator please as I'm a bit confused. Should I put "<2.0", "2.0" or "30.0"?

 

Hi Sarah,

 

 Not an expert and I stand to be corrected. but I  would be concerned that Bonnies’ Insulin results are not correct.  Was she fasted before the test?  This can sometimes not give a true indication of what’s happening at the time.  If not, I would suspect that there was possibly a handling/mishandling issue to get those low results.  

 

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 




 


Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

newuser1971@...
 

Hi there

Could one of the experts let me know how I should put Bonnie's insulin result into the IR Calculator please as I'm a bit confused. Should I put "<2.0", "2.0" or "30.0"?

Her result is reported as follows:-

INSULIN     <2.0 mU/L   (2.0 - 30.0)

A copy of the report is available in the History Files (report dated 8/4/15) if you want to see the actual lab results.

Thanks

Sarah Harris

Mt Mee, Queensland, Australia

Joined: 20 March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bonnie%20and%20Sarah/

ECHistory8

 


Re: Diet help!

Melissa Coupar
 

Hi Jaini, 
Hope you don't mind if I pester you with another question!
I placed an order for the Mad Barn Basic Mineral/Vit Mix, and in my email inquiring about shipping, the fellow suggested the Omneity IR mix for an all-in-one supplement for PPID/IR horses. Have you had any experience with this mix? Seems to have more antioxidants etc. 

Thanks again!
Regards,





>>>In Canada, the Mad Barn Basic Mineral Mix is good for Alberta hay (but too high in manganese for BC hay), although there is selenium in there as well:  
https://www.madbarn.com/product/madbarn-trace-mineral-pak/ There are no major minerals in it, but it is easy to add a teaspoon or so of magnesium oxide.  The owner of Mad Barn (whose name escapes me at the moment) has also expressed an interest in doing custom mixes for Canadians.


Re: Free Choice Feeding an IR Horse

Nancy C
 

Hi Mule maid

Please don't forget to sign your posts!

Many, many thanks.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.
See R. M. Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org
and
See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, The Vascular Cushion Of The Frog What Does It Do?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <mulemaid@...> wrote :

CJ Alford, McNeil AR makes 1/2" hay nets. She made me some whole bale nets that work wonderfully. she will make any size you would like. With the whole bale nets, I only have to feed every three days to my EC/IR 700 pound mule.


Re: Commercial minerals

Nancy C
 

Hi mktmnr3 Please don't for get to sign your posts!

Many many thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <mktnr3@...> wrote :

My horse gets the Timothy pellets because he can't chew hay well anymore.

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