Date   

Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

takarri@...
 


When did you start the rescue remedy for you horse before the other was put down?? 

Hi Corrine,

 

 Unfortunately, Jacks passing wasn’t planned- colic- so I didn’t get to start the RR for Spur until later in the day- a friend dropped some in. If I’d had the chance, I would have started it a few days beforehand - for both of us. I had always said that if Jack passed away Spur would need to be put down as well as he wouldn’t cope. I just couldn’t do it at that time. I totally underestimated his ability to cope. He yet again taught me another lesson.

 

It’s good that there’s another horse close by- they don’t have to be together- just within eyesight.  Would love to see a photo of her when you’re ready.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response




Re: Abnormal shedding??

janieclougher@...
 

HI, Kelly - Buddy is such beauty! And what a lot of character in his face.

Here is what I see, looking at the case history and photos: not enough groceries for the amount of work. You would be amazed at how common this is.  How many pounds is the 6 flakes of hay?  Is the hay tested? (might be protein deficient)  Also, he has no trace elements added (copper, zinc, manganese, iodine); and the vitamin E might not be being absorbed if it is a powder form and not touching some oil.  MSM also can interfere with copper uptake, so there is a double whammy regarding copper status. So he may well be missing the essential minerals, safe calories, proteins and vitamin E that will alllow him to build muscle.

The fact that last summer he came up lame after being out on grass, combined with a new trim, suggests that he is still IR at baseline; this is somewhat supported by his improvement after being off grass. This means you need to continue to treat him as IR.

IR horses in work need safe feed, but a lot more of it.  Free choice hay (if the hay is below 10% ESC + starch) is ideal, plus beet pulp rinsed/soaked/rinsed (or Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, or Nuzu Stabul 1) to act as a carrier for the vitamin E, flax, salt, and minerals that are missing from the hay.  If you can't test the hay, please start getting some California Trace Plus http://californiatrace.com/catraceplus.html   into him.  You will still have to add a magnesium supplement; Remission is fine, but magnesium oxide is a whole lot cheaper.

Rather than Nutrena Safe Choice Senior (which is anything but safe: starch is 14%  http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/safe-choice/safechoice-senior-horse-feed/index.jsp  ) I would use hay cubes, beet pulp (r/s/r) etc as a carrier to get supps into him.

Short version: Ideally, test the hay, balance the minerals to the hay. Testing the hay will also let you know how much protein is in there, and the ESC and starch.

If you can't test the hay, (and you are okay taking the chance that it is below 10% ESC + starch), then do this:

Free choice hay - have hay in front of him all the time
Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp (or hay cubes, or Nuzu etc) to act as carrier for:
 -1 cup ground, stabilized flax
 -2 scoops California Trace Plus
 -2 tablespoons of iodized table salt
 -5 capsules of Vitamin E in soy oil (or you can mix a tsp of olive oil or flax oil in with your vitamin E powder,  but  then you are doubling up on the selenium with the California Trace Plus)
 -Magnesium oxide, or Remission
 -Uckele Tri Amino
 - 100 grams ( a scoop and a bit) of whey protein isolate

If he doesn't start putting weight on after 10 days, increase the beet pulp to just about as much as he will eat (he can have up to 5 lbs dry weight, which after soaking will fill a bathtub, so shoot for 3 or so lbs dry weight)

Because of the very high index of suspicion for IR: No pasture; no Safe Choice Senior; no MSM; no apples or carrots. (use hay cubes for treats); no added oil beyond what is in the flax, or a tsp olive or flax oil for vitamin E absorption.

For others reading, there is a file on Feeding Recovered Laminitics When Back in Work  in this folder: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Laminitis%2C%20Hoof%20Care%20%26%20Trimming/

 

but I am not sure if Buddy is a candidate for this - depends on his current status (case history is from Aug 2014)

Let me know how this sounds to you, Kelly -  I can't remember if Buddy turns his nose up at beet pulp or other feeds, or if your arrangement at home allows free choice hay. 

Hope this helps!






 




---In EquineCushings@..., <sincere121@...> wrote :

Hello,


I haven't posted for awhile as my horse has been sound (knock on wood).  My question is regarding his shedding both this spring and last.  It seems to me to be later than other horses in the neighborhood (I only have one horse) and a bit unusual.  I was reading about some of the early symptoms of PPID and I noticed that he has several:  fall laminitis out of the blue (2013), abscesses (several times), losing his topline/muscle (over this past winter), and this unusual shedding pattern I noticed both this spring and last.


Thanks for your advice,

Kelly & Buddy

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1539713942

ECHistory8



Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi Pauline 

Yes he has another horse my daughters gelding,they are not buddy's never have been,jasper has been chased and put through the fence by the other gelding. 

Sounds like pacing and screaming is in the cards even if he see's and sniffs her after she's gone,i have be the one to hold her rope while she's being put down. I have two horses to deal with after, both will lose their minds,this mare holds the small herd of 3 together. 

When did you start the rescue remedy for you horse before the other was put down?? Have 2 to deal with plus i'am going to be a emotional mess. I know she will still be my heart horse,hard to say good by to such a beautiful sweet mare. Will put a picture of her in my album,she's palomino quarter horse her name is chardonnay.


Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

takarri@...
 


So how do i get him through the loss of his best buddy? i don't want him pacing the fence and screaming for days looking for her. Hard enough to go through this then to have jasper screaming and looking for her will be heart breaking. 

Hi Corinne,

 

I recently had to deal with a similar situation when my heart horse Jack was euthanized. He had been Spurs constant companion for many years. Jack couldn’t go out of sight- ever- without Spur going nuts. Jack used to like playing hidey at midnight, in which I would then have to drag myself out of bed to “find” him as Spur would be screaming the neighborhood down.

 

Spur was there for the whole process, watched and sniffed Jack after the process. I certainly believed that helped. He did go nuts, screaming & running for about 30 minutes after Jack left. He continued to call out and pace for the next few days.  I slept in his stall for the first night and reassured him each time he called out. I put my 2 pet sheep in his yard overnight and Rescue remedy really helped … both of us… There’s not a lot more than you can do other than be there for Jasper. He will fret and pace- that’s a normal reaction for them. He will eventually stop and move on.  Spur called less and less, but it took a week. Make sure his feet are well protected and padded.- that would be my main concern.  My vet offered a sedative for Spur- I declined, again the rescue remedy worked so much better than I anticipated. There are safe calming herbs that can be used- but not sure how that would go with the doxy treatment. Is there another horse close by that he can see?

 

I’m so sorry for your impending loss- it’s a hard gut wrenching decision to make. Quality of life is very important and although it may not feel like it, we are lucky that we can alleviate any pain and suffering in a peaceful humane manner. She will always be your heart horse.  Take care & hugs to you.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Yes he cleans up the cubes,and wants more. forgot to add that in last post.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: understanding ACTH test results

Michelle Riley
 

I had the same “normal” results using MSU.  Cornell testing confirmed my suspicions of PPID.  Use Cornell.
 
Michelle Riley
NW Indiana
Aug ‘09


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

He was back before all his trouble he got  24/7 hay round bale put in feeder and a handful of timothy pellets for supplements,that was 2 years ago.  He's been losing weight he was on the fat side about a month and a half ago. He went from 1,250 to 1,130 not skinny by any means can feel ribs can't see them. He isn't seeming to gain weight on current feedings.

Can't re test PPID IR till july he's on doxy for lyme dease,so yes out of control PPID, IR is possible. Heres post by DR Kellon back in march about re testing 192615

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

Lorna Cane
 


>So total amount is 28.5lbs a day,hay is gone by am feeding. He's drinking 25 gallons a day sometimes more.

How many pounds total feed was he eating before,in 'normal' times ?
Is he gaining weight on 28.5 pounds?
Is he cleaning up the cubes?

Have you ruled out out-of-control PPID/IR?

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi Karen

He has another gelding,but they aren't buddy's, other gelding is very mean boss horse.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

He gets 1.5 of ODTB cubes in AM and PM upping pms ODTB cubes to 2lbs tonight so 3.5 lbs of cubes a day, 25lbs of hay thats soaked. So total amount is 28.5lbs a day,hay is gone by am feeding. He's drinking 25 gallons a day sometimes more. Hay is in small hole hay net 1.5 inch holes he's eaten holes bigger in last day or so. Was chewing on net when i went out to feed this morning.

I'll let him see his buddy then after the deed is done,hopefully i can handle this it's going to be hard. Have had alot of losses this year already.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

kansteen5545@...
 

Hi Corinne -
Are you planning a replacement for your mare as a new buddy for Jasper? If you get the replacement now, Jasper could become used to it and not have as hard a time when your mare has to go.
Karen
ME/2014
---- "sassafrass45@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi
(Re: Jasper)
Also his pasture mate of 11 years is going to be put down this fall or sooner,my mare who's 28 1/2 years old. Her health is declining and she gotten skinny despite all the hay and 15lbs of senior feed divided up into 4 feedings. She has heaves which is getting harder to control having more and more flare ups/even on Lung EQ. Also has DSLD on both front legs and fetlocks are dropping more and one leg has bowed a tendon.

So how do i get him through the loss of his best buddy? i don't want him pacing the fence and screaming for days looking for her. Hard enough to go through this then to have jasper screaming and looking for her will be heart breaking.


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

Lorna Cane
 


>Jasper is eating none stop do i let him eat all he want's? 

My first reply seems to have evaporated.

Horses in pain often require more than their normal amounts of feed in order to hold their weight.
How many pounds of hay a day is Jasper eating? How many pounds total feed?

Is he gaining weight,or holding?

Is he still drinking 25 gallons of water a day?

Sorry......questions.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

Lorna Cane
 



>I always try to make sure that the horses here get to see their buddy after the deed is done.


Also Rescue Remedy helps.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

Lorna Cane
 



>So how do i get him through the loss of his best buddy?


I'm so sorry,Corrine.


I always try to make sure that the horses here get to see their buddy after the deed is done.

It helps .


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Jasper is eating none stop do i let him eat all he want's? or do i limit amounts of hay he can have? If he has hay he never quits eating. This is new to me he's never been like this before,so i'am not sure what to do.

Also his pasture mate of 11 years is going to be put down this fall or sooner,my mare who's 28 1/2 years old. Her health is declining and she gotten skinny despite all the hay and 15lbs of senior feed divided up into 4 feedings. She has heaves which is getting harder to control having more and more flare ups/even on Lung EQ. Also has DSLD on both front legs and fetlocks are dropping more and one leg has bowed a tendon. 

Her quality of life is becoming questionable at this point,so i have to make that dreaded decision to put her down,my heart horse of 26 years. So problem with her being put down is jasper is very attached to her and flips his lid when she goes out of his sight. 

So how do i get him through the loss of his best buddy? i don't want him pacing the fence and screaming for days looking for her. Hard enough to go through this then to have jasper screaming and looking for her will be heart breaking. 

Sorry for the long post but i need to do this now,because the week or day before i wont be able to think this all out,and see through the tears to type it.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Increase Pergolide when?

Nancy C
 

Hi Kerry

Not sure we can say all horses will need or should taper up and/or down.  There are many who stay on one dose all year.  Because fall is the worst time for so many, dose increases happen frequently at that time, but many stay on that one increased dose all year.

Late summer into early fall is a critical time for careful monitoring of symptoms for all horses, but especially for those who have suffered laminitis before or who like mine, never have controlled insulin.

These two archived messages are helpful

Seasonal Rise When to Test ACTH Message by Eleanor https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/132334

 

Increase Pergolide Message (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988

Want to also speak to the importance of understanding trim.

IMO and IME, during seasonal rise there is a need to be very vigilant with trim. All aspects of DDT+E are important.  Understanding the correct trim, making sure it is physiologically tight and balanced is a huge factor in whether a horse whose insulin is not controlled can withstand an insulin surge from slightly higher PPID issues (acth, cortisol) in the fall.  Or during spring shots and other events the IR horse is likely to experience.

We've got lots of resources to begin to understand trim on ecirhorse.org, both in the proceedings and on the  Laminitis and Trim pages there.  Will also be a big part of the  NO Laminitis! Conference in November. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NO Laminitis! 2015 in Georgetown, TX November 6-8: Dr. Eleanor Kellon, Dr. Robert Bowker, Dr. Philip Johnson, Dr. Benjamin Buchanan, Kathleen Gustafson, Daisy Bicking and Lavinia Fiscletti. Registration opening soon. Click on nolaminitis.org for updates.


 




---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :


So...PPID horses *will* need a pergolide increase during the rise? Is that the standard thinking? (Not asking how much; just that an increase is *usually* indicated)


Re: Was: Increase Pergolide -Now: Who Tests annually in Spring?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi!  I test frequently all year long, but my timeframe is very limited thus far.  You prob saw this rough table from a prev post:


My mare's ACTH's (all at Cornell):

9/24/14.....ACTH  36.6 untreated, in full hyperglycemic/hyperinsulinemic crisis.  Start 1mg pergolide
10/25/14.....ACTH  26.2 on 1mg.
early Nov.....had severe insulin spike, PU/PD, etc; increased pergo by 0.5mg to 1.5mg/day
12/3/14.....ACTH  22.1 on 1.5mg/day
early '15.....insulin/glucose well-controlled on 1.5mg
5/17/15.....ACTH  22.1 on 1.5mg./day, still seems well-controlled, feels great under tack.


Obviously I have a mare.  Most of the time she lives alone (very contentedly) in my backyard.  For a few months this past winter I boarded her at a nearby facility with an indoor arena.  Only change in management was she shared a paddock with my younger IR gelding (Tofurky) who is docile and eats the same diet as Pinky.  The mare has shown extensively and handles changes in environs without much, if any, stress.  Tofurky I jokingly label as "asexual" bc he shows no studdish behavior, ever; he's more of the doofus adolescent that has no idea what to do around the fairer sex.  However, for a brief time a very studdish gelding was living in the paddock next to Pinky & Tofurky and for the first time in her 11 years with me, Pinky was outrageously and obnoxiously the "flirtatious mare" that gives the phrase its dreaded connotations.  She was in immediate, full estrus in the foul depths of winter but more importantly, I noticed a slight nod toward her usual pattern of spiking insulin that abated quickly with the removal of the stud-y adjacent gelding (I didn't pull bloodwork at that point bc I didn't recognize its potential usefulness).  Within a few days Pinky was back to her usual anestrus state wherein she typically, and thankfully, lives largely at peace. 

I have yet to fully understand the spring-hormonal-laminitis connection with PPID (meaning, I haven't done enough reading) but wanted to offer the above interesting observation with my mare.  She was a Premarin broodmare that pasture bred & had many foals (believed to be eight foals) before she was culled at age 10 when i adopted her, FWIW. 

Have any studies been conducted following ACTH #s on broodmares (+/- breeds prone to IR)?

Fascinating stuff.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

PS...my CH's have been deleted or otherwise lost by Neo so are being updated at present.


Was: Increase Pergolide -Now: Who Tests annually in Spring?

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Hi Bob,
You asked if the laminitis in your horse was early due to earlier seasonal changes or progression of the disease.  A really good question!

This is something our collective case histories and their records of  ACTH tests could possibly tell us.  There must be members who test routinely in spring and record the results?

Regardless of the actual reason, I'd guess that if Nature is triggering the seasonal changes, and the season is coming earlier, then it probably is not a progression of the disease.  However, that is just a guess based on nothing important, as usual, the answer would be found in regular ACTH testing $$$.  

I was going to check to see what your ACTH testing records revealed but you didn't post a link to your case history.  If you don't have a case history, you can check my mare's ACTH tests to see if you think it is a spring trigger or a disease progression trigger.  Regardless why it is happening though it sounds like a spring rise is certainly in the picture for some of our horses (mares only?) 

If anyone else happens to do regular spring testing it would be great to know about you and your horse. Post your case history links with your replies.  

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

   ECIR Files Table of Contents

      Dawn's Case History

Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials






Re: Increase Pergolide when?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Very interesting reading these responses & ever so helpful for a "first-timer" going into the seasonal rise.

So...PPID horses *will* need a pergolide increase during the rise? Is that the standard thinking? (Not asking how much; just that an increase is *usually* indicated)

Then, conversely, a subsequent tapering as eACTH naturally declines (December?) and remaining on a "maintenence" pergolide dose thru spring, all-the-while ideally supported by ACTH testing to establish expected down-trending or static ACTH as well as future target dose data (aka finding your PPID's ACTH "magic number").

Painfully simplistic & deceptively easy, no doubt....but mostly correct?

Thanks everyone,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014 -- an anxious seasonal rise first-timer


Re: Lab Test

Maggie
 

Hi Michele,

DEFINITELY go with Nancy's advice!  Sorry for any confusion I caused you!  I was thinking along the lines of:

1) not knowing what circumstances under which the labs were drawn, and
2) If funds were tight and you are already feeding him a low sugar starch diet, then the $ would be be best spent on the mineral balancing at this time.

As Kerry so eloquently explained in a great post yesterday (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/194313), the insulin level fluctuates constantly, and an insulin that shows "compensated IR" or even "not IR" on the GI calculator, does not mean that in the future, if the horse were given an inappropriate diet (grass, grain, etc), he wouldn't run into problems.   Once IR, always IR. 

That's great the Kathy Brinkerhoff has balanced Mac's Diet for you!  I was going by what's in his CH, so if you could update that it would be helpful.  I saw in the old messages that you had a question about how to do that and looks like maybe you never got an answer?  Here's a very helpful file in ECH8 with tons of great information about how to do, well, just about anything with your CH!  


Long story short, you have to update it on your hard drive and then upload it and delete the old CH.  You're doing a great job with Mac!  Keep it up!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA


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