Date   

Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

 

Apologies to the moderators who may move this to EC Horsekeeping.

Yes, I'm referring to soaked hay. *** 

That is because ESC is only one component of the formula for the calculation of DE. Other components of DE (Crude Protein, fat, hemicellulose and ash) are not reduced proportionately by soaking because they aren't as water soluble as sugars.

An example of my hays as fed:
Dry hay DE:   2.14 Mcal/kg=> soaked DE: 1.64 Mcal/kg (76% of dry)
Dry hay ESC: 7.8%=> Soaked ESC: 4.1% (53% of dry)
As Dry Matter, soaked hay DE was 89% of the dry hay, and ESC was 61% of dry hay. 

***I caution that my water is very very soft. It is not acid but it is very pure, only pH adjusted with calcium carbonate. So YMMV with different water used as the solvent.

I put these hay analyses in Cayuse's CH folder. I have a others.

Cass for Cayuse and Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

....."Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. ...."

>>>Cass, are you referring to soaked hay in this statement?


Need Opinions on Jasper Trim 6/1/2015

corrine haffner
 

Farrier was here today and trimmed jasper,he had a lot of bruising on Left front sole and hoof wall. He is still sore even after trim. Farrier kinda did what needed doing took toes back more,but still rasped away hoof wall.


He wasn't happy about getting feet done so did the i'am done and layed down,no warning just plopped right down,then refused to get up,took ten minutes to get him back up.


And pared out sole which i asked her not to do ARGGG. Will post the pictures here of todays work. He's still eating like he's starving to death,also eat part of a hay net last night,goof ball. So down to net slow feed net now.



Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710




Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Kerry Isherwood
 

....."Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. ...."

>>>Cass, are you referring to soaked hay in this statement?



Thank you,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

 

Beverly, I'll take a stab at answering some of your questions. I'm sure knowledgable moderators will correct any misinformation. My statements are based on the NRCPlus course and other Dr Kellon courses I've taken as well as my own hay and pasture tests. Posting your analyses to your case history file would be helpful.

First off, I want to acknowledge that I do not know whether there is a bright line where ESC/starch become too low if you are otherwise meeting your equine's needs for DE.  Your pony isn't in work IIRC.

From a full analysis, you should see that low ESC/low starch hay products can have perfectly adequate digestible energy/DE. I've tested several soaked hays with ESC/starch in the ranges you found with the Standlee Pellets. I have an example of ESC 3.9%, starch 0.5%, and yet DE is 1.81 Mcal/kg, more than adequate, and protein tested out at 17%. Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. That's because the horse extracts other nutrients very efficiently in the hind gut by fermentation, and those nutrients are NOT sugars and starch.

Variations in protein (and other nutrients) in hay is normal and natural. Even within the same hay field or  bale or same handful of grass, protein will vary depending on whether you analyze the heads of the grass vs the middle of the stems vs the base of the stems (where nitrate accumulates during early spring growth spurts). 

What Standlee doesn't do is provide a guaranteed analysis with maximum and minimums of key nutrients. That is the benefit of a product like ODTBC. Natural variations in nutrients are controlled within ranges. I doubt such control is essential for all equines, as nature's grass supply also varies seasonally. For an aged or ill equine, you may want more consistency.

Cass for Cayuse and Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12


---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I did a full analysis ***

The ESC on #1 test old pellets is 6.3% and the Starch on #1 is .4%.  This is feed from December or November 2014. 

The ESC on #2 test new pellets is 3.4% and the Starch on #2 is .2%.  This is feed from March 2015 ***

Protein old #1 is 9.7%.  Protein new #2 is 12%.

The ESC + Starch are far under 10% it seems odd to me.  Is it nutritious?

Any other questions?  Like why the protein on the new stuff is so much higher?  


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Kerry Isherwood
 

Actually, thanks to Beverly's analyses, I think ill switch my young horse to Standlee's Timothy pellets and off their Alfalfa pellet. He seems to have finally finished growing, mercifully...though its likely a trivial point altogether, considering the pellet portion only comprises 2-3 lbs of his daily diet acting solely as his supp carrier. But very nice to know the Timothy's ESC/starch are so low! Thanks, Beverly, for kindly sharing your results.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beverly,

Your test results aren't at all surprising given they are from different batches of hay. They are also likely from different fields and/or suppliers. Nutrition isn't based on ESC + Starch alone, protein plus all the other minerals amounts are what determine the nutrition profile. That nice, low ESC + Starch just means it is safe from a glycemic response perspective for an IR horse to consume and is the prologue of the book. The rest of the analysis makes up the remaining chapters.

The ESC + Starch and protein will vary widely based on growing conditions (soil, temp, water, sunlight, fertilization) and time of harvesting (both time of day and time of year). I have analyses for over 10 years from the same field, same farmer, same type of mixed grass hay that range in ESC + Starch from 4% to 12% and protein that ranges from 6% to 14.5%. Definitely no alfalfa in my hay.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Two Standlee Timothy test results

beverly meyer
 

I did a full analysis of bags from different times of the year, including the super-hard dark pellets the pony could not chew (#2 test new pellets) and will share if anyone wants them or post to the Files for others.

The ESC on #1 test old pellets is 6.3% and the Starch on #1 is .4%.  This is feed from December or November 2014. 

The ESC on #2 test new pellets is 3.4% and the Starch on #2 is .2%.  This is feed from March 2015 after Standlee went off line in February whcih they said was due to no supply. 

Protein old #1 is 9.7%.  Protein new #2 is 12%.

The ESC + Starch are far under 10% it seems odd to me.  Is it nutritious?

Any other questions?  Like why the protein on the new stuff is so much higher?  Standlee insists there is no Alfalfa but is that why the protein shot up in the new stuff maybe or just the time of harvest?  

Thanks.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas


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Re: NFC

janieclougher@...
 

NFC (non-fiber carbs) is not a measure we use with IR /PPID horses.  Instead, the combined ESC = Ethanol Soluble Sugar, and starch should be less than 10%.  Starch in particular can be problematic, so aim for starch less than 3%.

If you sign your name, year of joining and general location, we are better able to direct you to resources in your area.

Hope that helps!


Re: goopy eyes

palomino.1982@...
 

Goopy eyes may be a reaction to sensitivity  and/or the immune system is out of whack. This may be a result of PPID/IR  not being  controlled. 

A post from Dr. Kellon:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/131583


However, a horse with a perfectly normal immune system may have goopy 
eyes if the eyes are being constantly irritated by flies or dust, 
mold spores, etc.. , and just having clear eyes doesn't mean the 
immune system is up to par. In other words, it can be an indicator 
but it's not enough to diagnose anything one way or the other.

From several thousand cases we've seen goopy eyes clear up on many when diagnosed and cleared up when the correct diagnosis is addressed correctly. (That's not a typo.  I meant to say that.) 

Because the diseases can overlap, the symptoms can as well.
++++++++++++++++

Susan
EC Primary Response
SoCal 2007

------------------------------------------------------------------

Many of Jesses symptoms have improved.. ie frequent thirst/urination.   sweating  etc.. But the eyes remain goopy. Does a goopy eye tell us we arent tight enough with regard to acth level and  meds/ diet  etc?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8



Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi Cindy

I know he will move on after he morns his buddy being gone,just worried he'll relapse with lyme dease,still dealing with him being sore footed. Just don't want him to go backwards in progress that's my biggest worry with him and losing his buddy.

I'll deal with the loss of my lovely mare,iv been through worse lost my mom here in nov 2014. While i still have my mare i'll pamper her and spend as much time with her as i can. Taking lots of pictures so i'll have those to look back on and remember her and how beautiful she was.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


goopy eyes

lj friedman
 

Many of Jesses symptoms have improved.. ie frequent thirst/urination.   sweating  etc.. But the eyes remain goopy. Does a goopy eye tell us we arent tight enough with regard to acth level and  meds/ diet  etc?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8



Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.

Cindy McGinley
 

     I want to add to the already wonderful post that Pauline wrote. When Alf, our equine patriarch, had to be put down, my other two horses screamed for him for a long time each and every time they went outside  -- for about a week. I realized suddenly on the second day that this is the way my horses chose to mourn, and when that came to me, instead of being something stressful I should try to alleviate, the screaming became something wonderfully heartfelt in honor of a fallen comrade. You have to let them handle it the way they do.
 
     They do move on.
 
     I am sorry you have to go through this.
 
- Cindy (with Alf's Entourage) in Central NY
ECIR Support
May 2006
www.blackhorseconsulting.com
 


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi Pauline 

I posted a photo of her in my album was from last summer,almost lost her to colic last summer. She looks kinda rough but she almost died of colic,spent 4 days walking and watching her plus a big vet bill. 

Will for sure start the rescue remedy 2 or 3 days before she's put down,unless it happens unplanned hopefully not.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

takarri@...
 


When did you start the rescue remedy for you horse before the other was put down?? 

Hi Corrine,

 

 Unfortunately, Jacks passing wasn’t planned- colic- so I didn’t get to start the RR for Spur until later in the day- a friend dropped some in. If I’d had the chance, I would have started it a few days beforehand - for both of us. I had always said that if Jack passed away Spur would need to be put down as well as he wouldn’t cope. I just couldn’t do it at that time. I totally underestimated his ability to cope. He yet again taught me another lesson.

 

It’s good that there’s another horse close by- they don’t have to be together- just within eyesight.  Would love to see a photo of her when you’re ready.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response




Re: Abnormal shedding??

janieclougher@...
 

HI, Kelly - Buddy is such beauty! And what a lot of character in his face.

Here is what I see, looking at the case history and photos: not enough groceries for the amount of work. You would be amazed at how common this is.  How many pounds is the 6 flakes of hay?  Is the hay tested? (might be protein deficient)  Also, he has no trace elements added (copper, zinc, manganese, iodine); and the vitamin E might not be being absorbed if it is a powder form and not touching some oil.  MSM also can interfere with copper uptake, so there is a double whammy regarding copper status. So he may well be missing the essential minerals, safe calories, proteins and vitamin E that will alllow him to build muscle.

The fact that last summer he came up lame after being out on grass, combined with a new trim, suggests that he is still IR at baseline; this is somewhat supported by his improvement after being off grass. This means you need to continue to treat him as IR.

IR horses in work need safe feed, but a lot more of it.  Free choice hay (if the hay is below 10% ESC + starch) is ideal, plus beet pulp rinsed/soaked/rinsed (or Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, or Nuzu Stabul 1) to act as a carrier for the vitamin E, flax, salt, and minerals that are missing from the hay.  If you can't test the hay, please start getting some California Trace Plus http://californiatrace.com/catraceplus.html   into him.  You will still have to add a magnesium supplement; Remission is fine, but magnesium oxide is a whole lot cheaper.

Rather than Nutrena Safe Choice Senior (which is anything but safe: starch is 14%  http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/safe-choice/safechoice-senior-horse-feed/index.jsp  ) I would use hay cubes, beet pulp (r/s/r) etc as a carrier to get supps into him.

Short version: Ideally, test the hay, balance the minerals to the hay. Testing the hay will also let you know how much protein is in there, and the ESC and starch.

If you can't test the hay, (and you are okay taking the chance that it is below 10% ESC + starch), then do this:

Free choice hay - have hay in front of him all the time
Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp (or hay cubes, or Nuzu etc) to act as carrier for:
 -1 cup ground, stabilized flax
 -2 scoops California Trace Plus
 -2 tablespoons of iodized table salt
 -5 capsules of Vitamin E in soy oil (or you can mix a tsp of olive oil or flax oil in with your vitamin E powder,  but  then you are doubling up on the selenium with the California Trace Plus)
 -Magnesium oxide, or Remission
 -Uckele Tri Amino
 - 100 grams ( a scoop and a bit) of whey protein isolate

If he doesn't start putting weight on after 10 days, increase the beet pulp to just about as much as he will eat (he can have up to 5 lbs dry weight, which after soaking will fill a bathtub, so shoot for 3 or so lbs dry weight)

Because of the very high index of suspicion for IR: No pasture; no Safe Choice Senior; no MSM; no apples or carrots. (use hay cubes for treats); no added oil beyond what is in the flax, or a tsp olive or flax oil for vitamin E absorption.

For others reading, there is a file on Feeding Recovered Laminitics When Back in Work  in this folder: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Laminitis%2C%20Hoof%20Care%20%26%20Trimming/

 

but I am not sure if Buddy is a candidate for this - depends on his current status (case history is from Aug 2014)

Let me know how this sounds to you, Kelly -  I can't remember if Buddy turns his nose up at beet pulp or other feeds, or if your arrangement at home allows free choice hay. 

Hope this helps!






 




---In EquineCushings@..., <sincere121@...> wrote :

Hello,


I haven't posted for awhile as my horse has been sound (knock on wood).  My question is regarding his shedding both this spring and last.  It seems to me to be later than other horses in the neighborhood (I only have one horse) and a bit unusual.  I was reading about some of the early symptoms of PPID and I noticed that he has several:  fall laminitis out of the blue (2013), abscesses (several times), losing his topline/muscle (over this past winter), and this unusual shedding pattern I noticed both this spring and last.


Thanks for your advice,

Kelly & Buddy

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1539713942

ECHistory8



Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi Pauline 

Yes he has another horse my daughters gelding,they are not buddy's never have been,jasper has been chased and put through the fence by the other gelding. 

Sounds like pacing and screaming is in the cards even if he see's and sniffs her after she's gone,i have be the one to hold her rope while she's being put down. I have two horses to deal with after, both will lose their minds,this mare holds the small herd of 3 together. 

When did you start the rescue remedy for you horse before the other was put down?? Have 2 to deal with plus i'am going to be a emotional mess. I know she will still be my heart horse,hard to say good by to such a beautiful sweet mare. Will put a picture of her in my album,she's palomino quarter horse her name is chardonnay.


Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

takarri@...
 


So how do i get him through the loss of his best buddy? i don't want him pacing the fence and screaming for days looking for her. Hard enough to go through this then to have jasper screaming and looking for her will be heart breaking. 

Hi Corinne,

 

I recently had to deal with a similar situation when my heart horse Jack was euthanized. He had been Spurs constant companion for many years. Jack couldn’t go out of sight- ever- without Spur going nuts. Jack used to like playing hidey at midnight, in which I would then have to drag myself out of bed to “find” him as Spur would be screaming the neighborhood down.

 

Spur was there for the whole process, watched and sniffed Jack after the process. I certainly believed that helped. He did go nuts, screaming & running for about 30 minutes after Jack left. He continued to call out and pace for the next few days.  I slept in his stall for the first night and reassured him each time he called out. I put my 2 pet sheep in his yard overnight and Rescue remedy really helped … both of us… There’s not a lot more than you can do other than be there for Jasper. He will fret and pace- that’s a normal reaction for them. He will eventually stop and move on.  Spur called less and less, but it took a week. Make sure his feet are well protected and padded.- that would be my main concern.  My vet offered a sedative for Spur- I declined, again the rescue remedy worked so much better than I anticipated. There are safe calming herbs that can be used- but not sure how that would go with the doxy treatment. Is there another horse close by that he can see?

 

I’m so sorry for your impending loss- it’s a hard gut wrenching decision to make. Quality of life is very important and although it may not feel like it, we are lucky that we can alleviate any pain and suffering in a peaceful humane manner. She will always be your heart horse.  Take care & hugs to you.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 





Re: Re Now Eating issues & loss of pasture mate.WAS: Testing ACTH & Doxycycline Question:

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Yes he cleans up the cubes,and wants more. forgot to add that in last post.

Thank you,

Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: understanding ACTH test results

Michelle Riley
 

I had the same “normal” results using MSU.  Cornell testing confirmed my suspicions of PPID.  Use Cornell.
 
Michelle Riley
NW Indiana
Aug ‘09

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