Date   

Re: Need Opinions on Jasper Trim 6/1/2015

ferne fedeli
 

​I was so freaked out on Sunday, because my farrier (who I have had for 2-3 years and does a really good job) said he was going to quit the farrier business and be driving a logging truck full time!!!  Argh!!!  He did recommend another young guy, not long out of farrier school that he thinks will do a good job.  I called the new guy and he is coming over our way (he lives close to 3 hours away!!!) on June 23rd, so I said my guys wouldn't really be ready then, but come over and give them light trims and check their feet out, etc.  Hopefully I can get an idea of his skills at that time...  Sometimes living in a rural area really sucks!!!  (But HARDLY ever!!!)
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

Hi, Corrine - I really hate to say this, because I know you have so very much on your plate.  It is time to fire your farrier. 


Re: Need Opinions on Jasper Trim 6/1/2015

janieclougher@...
 


Hi, Corrine - I really hate to say this, because I know you have so very much on your plate.  It is time to fire your farrier.  Carving out the sole is making an already sore horse more sore, plus I don't see any bevel on the wall to help keep the wall out of weight bearing.  Every trim seems to be making him worse.  You could do better by *only* rasping the toe back from the top yourself, and let his poor sole grow for a few months.  Best of all is to find a new farrier.  I do know this is really hard, and the last thing you want to be doing right now along with coping with everything else.

Lavinia, am I out to lunch here? 

Maine is a big state, but if anyone out there has farriers to recommend, perhaps email me privately merlin5clougher at gmail dot com, and I will pass the info on to Corrine.  Please don't post names of farriers on the list, just in case people start criticizing in public.

If someone was removing my sole callus, that I need to support my foot, I would lay down and not get up, either.  Damn, damn, damn!  I am sorry the two of you are going through this.

Hang in there - we are all cheering for you.




..........And pared out sole which i asked her not to do ARGGG. Will post the pictures here of todays work. He's still eating like he's starving to death,also eat part of a hay net last night,goof ball. So down to net slow feed net now.



Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710



 


Re: update on princess and questions on pain killers... (sue & princess)

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

thank you......
I hope the next photos is princess out in the pasture with her easyboots on.. It should be hopefully no later than aug.. keeping my fingers crossed... the pasture is a dry lot, working on a track/padlock track, from  pete ramesy book...
thanks
sue & princess
oh 6/11


Re: Questions on Pain Killers - Free PhytoQuench samples

John Goldston <newleaffarm@...>
 

Dr. Kellon,
What type of improvement would we expect to see after using 20 doses of PhytoQuench samples?  
Thank you,
Mary Goldston TX 2014


From: "drkellon@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:16 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Questions on Pain Killers - Free PhytoQuench samples

 
If anyone wants to try Phyto-Quench I can get you 20 sample doses for free.  This is a very limited offer so if interested please send me an e-mail with the details of why you want to try it.  Use drkellon "at" gmail.com.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Questions on Pain Killers - Free PhytoQuench samples

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If anyone wants to try Phyto-Quench I can get you 20 sample doses for free.  This is a very limited offer so if interested please send me an e-mail with the details of why you want to try it.  Use drkellon "at" gmail.com.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Psyllium for sand colic

Karen <ket62@...>
 

Mine like a pellet not powder. But thanks.

Karen in UT


CONTRIBUTING YOUR INFORMATION - HELP US TO HELP YOU

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 


This is a very large group of horse owners with the potential for having a large database of information.  Well-documented scientific data (your case history) helps the ECIR Group gain the trust of science-based equine professionals and shows patterns that shape the protocols that helps so many PPID and IR horses and owners. Sharing your information is the best way to thank the ECIR Group's volunteers for their help. Please take the time to add or update your Case History.

 

 

HELP US TO HELP YOU:

For faster and more relevant answers, please include a link to your case history, photos etc, in your messages – to properly answer any questions the volunteers need to see a case history for your horse.

 

 

POSTING YOUR HORSE'S INFORMATION:

1. NEW Case Histories should now be posted in ECHistory8.

 

2. Full instructions and templates can be found in the main files in the folder 
9 Case Histories

 

3. Keep your case history safe! Avoid losing your information by following the simple instructions and tricks for posting and updating case histories in the document

“Warning for Naming Folders”.   

 

3. If you are updating an old Case History but there is no longer enough space on older history groups, feel free to move your information to ECHistory8.

 

<<< IMPORTANT >>>

4. Photos of any sort - this includes photos of text such as lab reports - should be posted in the PHOTOS SECTION of the ECHistory Group where your case history is posted.   Links to ECIR Case History Sites

 

If you had or have to move your Case History, you don't need to move your photos. Just be sure a link to them is posted in both your case history and your message signature.

 

As you can appreciate, there are just too many places information can be.  It is the responsibility of the uploader to note the urls and provide links whenever seeking advice from the volunteers. If you are unsure how to do this see the document "How to Make, Save and Post Signatures and Links". 

 

5.  Please check if you can add any information to the various Databases and Polls. Often overlooked, these tools gather the information Dr. Kellon needs to make and update the protocols that the group uses to help PPID and IR horses.   

For Neo Yahoo users, buttons/links to these locations can be found just under the any of the group's cover photos.

​​

For Classic Yahoo users these buttons/links are located in the top left-hand corner of the screen. Or you can click these links:

ECIR ​Databases

ECIR Polls

 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List

 


Re: update on princess and questions on pain killers... (sue & princess)

takarri@...
 


Sue, you are a real inspiration. I've been following your posts from the start and you deserve a major pat on the back for your tenacity and can do attitude! Kudos to you.

Pauline & Spur
Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 

 


Re: update on princess and questions on pain killers... (sue & princess)

janieclougher@...
 

What good news!!!  You and Princess are a real pair of troupers.

To wean off the bute, do it by lengthening the time between doses.  So, go for several days giving only 1 gram every 24 hours;  then do a couple of doses every 36 hours.  Then every 48 hours.  If all is well after 2 doses every 48 hours, you should be able to stop the bute completely.

 Phytoquench is definitely the best.  It is an effective pain reliever (but expensive, so only to be used short term)  Then add back in the jiaogulan.

Congrats to you both!




-.......she was at my back nugging me with her nose to get out of the way before I could get it mixed up...  .


Re: Abnormal shedding??

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Kelly!  Given that he did end up with laminitis last year, if he was my horse, I don't think I would chance the grass - especially if there is a lot of clover in it. Clover can be quite high in starch.  I know you said that last year he was out all night on pasture with a muzzle at the trainer's with no problem; and then was grazing 1 hour with a muzzle and 2 hours without at your place "without problems" *but* then the laminitis occurred. There can be smoldering sub-clinical laminitis for quite some time, with everything looking just fine, but then some little thing tips them over the edge into frank laminitis. I think what I am trying to say here is that the grazing last summer undoubtedly contributed to his laminitis.

However (isn't there always a "however"?), if you have some grass that is not stressed or full of clover, then he could certainly graze with a muzzle for 15 minutes if it is done immediately after a good work-out.  Sugars and starches taken in in the first half hour or hour after a work-out go to replace glycogen stores, rather than causing insulin spikes and fat accumulation. 

Thus, your family can join my family in the universal cry of: "Why can't we just have a horse that can GRAZE??????"

I wouldn't test for PPID just now. It is possible, but is way down on the list of differentials at this point.  Wait and see how the diet change works, and then you can always test for ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin in late August/early September, to see how he is doing during the seasonal rise. (all you confirmed PPID horses out there know that we test you earlier than that because PPID horses start the seasonal rise earlier than normal horses)

The Triple Crown Omega Max looks perfect; also, here is a comparison chart put out by Omega Horseshine:  https://www.omegafields.com/omega-horseshine.html

 



Suitable products on that list are BioFlax, Simply Flax, and maybe HorseFlax.  The other products have unsuitable additives, like calcium or ground oats. (although to be fair, I don't know if there is enough ground oats in the Omega Horseshine to be a problem, but better safe than sorry)  Anyone else out there in the States that knows of good stabilized flax products, speak out!  I see Uckele has a number of omega 3 supplements that look really good, too:  http://equine.uckele.com/fatty-acids

 



Another option might be to buy whole flaxseed, and grind it in a coffee grinder. It can be less expensive, but is more labour intensive.  You can grind enough for a week and keep it in the fridge.

Regarding the alfalfa pellets - they can be a great source of protein for many horses, but some horses get foot sore on alfalfa.  No one really knows what compound in the alfalfa causes this, so many of us with IR horses are leary of alfalfa. 

Whey protein isolate can be purchased at any health food store, body building store, or online ditto.

Lysine and methionine can be purchased from Uckele or My Best Horse. Lysine and methionine are limiting amino acids, and adding them to the mix can help Buddy utilize the protein in the hay to his best advantage.  Lysine is dirt cheap; use 10 grams of lysine and 5 grams of methionine as additives.

http://www.mybesthorse.com/

Let us know how it goes!

Cheers,


 






....To update history, I have not been giving him any MSM for several months now.  He got 2 cups beet pulp along with a cup of alfalfa pellets over the winter that I soaked and put his other supplements in.  I stopped the beet pulp about 2 months ago.  Apparently, he needs to get back on it.  I am pretty sure my hay is deficient in protein and I was hoping the alfalfa pellets were helping make up for some of this.  Should I continue with those, add more, or forget it and try to find the stuff you listed?......

.......Do you find the shedding unusual and worthy of a PPID test, or should I change his diet and see how it goes?  Is 15 minutes with a grazing muzzle on in our clover filled pasture a stupid idea?...........
Thanks again for all of your help!
Kelly and Buddy
Illinois 2013
ECHistory8

 




Re: Abnormal shedding??

sincere121@...
 

Jaini,

Thank you for the advice and the compliments.  Buddy is a very special, sweet, hard-working and forgiving guy who is my best friend.  

To update history, I have not been giving him any MSM for several months now.  He got 2 cups beet pulp along with a cup of alfalfa pellets over the winter that I soaked and put his other supplements in.  I stopped the beet pulp about 2 months ago.  Apparently, he needs to get back on it.  I am pretty sure my hay is deficient in protein and I was hoping the alfalfa pellets were helping make up for some of this.  Should I continue with those, add more, or forget it and try to find the stuff you listed?

I will attempt to upload the hay testing report I have for SOME of the hay I bought.  We have three different kinds/cuttings that I am mixing right now.  The report is for the "better" mixed hay.  The other stuff is "economy grass mix hay" and some first cutting mixed hay from last year.  The report does not include NSC. They don't test for that and I was going to have to pay extra to have it done, so I just went with it.  My previous hay guy's stuff was much more loaded with alfalfa and I really had to feed in limited amounts or Buddy would gain too much weight and I worried it was too much protein.  Now, it appears I have gone too far the other direction.

Can you recommend some specific brands and places to buy the ground stabilized flax and the whey protein isolate?  The stores around here (TSC and Farm and Fleet) only carry Nutrena and Dumor.  I called a feed store an hour away that deals with Triple Crown and he is going to see if he can special order their Omega Max.  Is this even the right stuff?  Are there other options?  I have no idea what whey protein isolate is or where to find it.

I will order the California Trace Plus, get him back on the beet pulp, continue with the Remission, and try to find the other things you suggested.  He is here at our house and I am out of school now so I can regulate his feed precisely.  We will start back to work 3-4 days/week as well.

Do you find the shedding unusual and worthy of a PPID test, or should I change his diet and see how it goes?  Is 15 minutes with a grazing muzzle on in our clover filled pasture a stupid idea?  Last summer I had him worked up to an hour with muzzle and he was out all night with muzzle when he was at the trainer's in May.  No problems.  I don't want to be dumb, but I don't want to be overly crazy cautious, either.   I have waited on starting this schedule this spring because of our super cold nights and sunny days.  Things are starting to even out more now.  

Thanks again for all of your help!
Kelly and Buddy
Illinois 2013
ECHistory8

 




update on princess and questions on pain killers... (sue & princess)

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hello everyone,
princess is doing great, she's not running and jumping but I'm seeing improvements in her weekly..  like yesterday. I was doing her so called grain mix and had my back to her and said come on princess lets get some dinner. she was at my back nugging me with her nose to get out of the way before I could get it mixed up...  before I would make her so called grain mix up and put it by her were she was standing or laying down..   I also found a blacksmith that's wonderful!!! she trims like I do. she did study pete ramey and some other ones, I don't know who they are. I went to some of the other horses she did and I could not believe what I saw.. short heels and toes.. she did a great job.. she was here doing my horses Saturday and did a wonderful job on them I could not of done better. .. I did tell her that I would not take a back seat to princess trimming again it almost cost me my mare..  she comment on what a great job I have been doing on there hoofs and asked me  after my knee surgery this july if I would be interested in joining her in her trimming business. she could use someone that knows how to trim like that.. I was flattered... THANK YOU TO ALL THAT HELP ME WITH MY TRIMMING INFO ECT.. THANKS TO LINDA FOR ALL SHES HELPED ME TOO!!!! the mark up really did help a lot.. I could not of done it with out you!!!
now the pain killers.. I want to take princess of the bute now, slowly, shes getting 1 gram am and pm.. what would be the best to switch her over to? and how much should she get? her hoofs, the abscess are filling in I guess you can say that, I'm still wrapping them daily and doing the dry cow stuff it seems to help.. also she has the soft rides on..
would phyto-quench be best ? or is there a better one out there?
IF ANYONE OUT THERE FEELS LIKE GIVING UP DON'T  look at princess and how bad she was, photos in her file. and stick with it a good trim and balance diet does great and lots of TLC
sue & princess
oh 6/11..


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

 

Apologies to the moderators who may move this to EC Horsekeeping.

Yes, I'm referring to soaked hay. *** 

That is because ESC is only one component of the formula for the calculation of DE. Other components of DE (Crude Protein, fat, hemicellulose and ash) are not reduced proportionately by soaking because they aren't as water soluble as sugars.

An example of my hays as fed:
Dry hay DE:   2.14 Mcal/kg=> soaked DE: 1.64 Mcal/kg (76% of dry)
Dry hay ESC: 7.8%=> Soaked ESC: 4.1% (53% of dry)
As Dry Matter, soaked hay DE was 89% of the dry hay, and ESC was 61% of dry hay. 

***I caution that my water is very very soft. It is not acid but it is very pure, only pH adjusted with calcium carbonate. So YMMV with different water used as the solvent.

I put these hay analyses in Cayuse's CH folder. I have a others.

Cass for Cayuse and Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

....."Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. ...."

>>>Cass, are you referring to soaked hay in this statement?


Need Opinions on Jasper Trim 6/1/2015

corrine haffner
 

Farrier was here today and trimmed jasper,he had a lot of bruising on Left front sole and hoof wall. He is still sore even after trim. Farrier kinda did what needed doing took toes back more,but still rasped away hoof wall.


He wasn't happy about getting feet done so did the i'am done and layed down,no warning just plopped right down,then refused to get up,took ten minutes to get him back up.


And pared out sole which i asked her not to do ARGGG. Will post the pictures here of todays work. He's still eating like he's starving to death,also eat part of a hay net last night,goof ball. So down to net slow feed net now.



Corrine and Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710




Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Kerry Isherwood
 

....."Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. ...."

>>>Cass, are you referring to soaked hay in this statement?



Thank you,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

 

Beverly, I'll take a stab at answering some of your questions. I'm sure knowledgable moderators will correct any misinformation. My statements are based on the NRCPlus course and other Dr Kellon courses I've taken as well as my own hay and pasture tests. Posting your analyses to your case history file would be helpful.

First off, I want to acknowledge that I do not know whether there is a bright line where ESC/starch become too low if you are otherwise meeting your equine's needs for DE.  Your pony isn't in work IIRC.

From a full analysis, you should see that low ESC/low starch hay products can have perfectly adequate digestible energy/DE. I've tested several soaked hays with ESC/starch in the ranges you found with the Standlee Pellets. I have an example of ESC 3.9%, starch 0.5%, and yet DE is 1.81 Mcal/kg, more than adequate, and protein tested out at 17%. Percentages of ESC/starch drop faster than DE. That's because the horse extracts other nutrients very efficiently in the hind gut by fermentation, and those nutrients are NOT sugars and starch.

Variations in protein (and other nutrients) in hay is normal and natural. Even within the same hay field or  bale or same handful of grass, protein will vary depending on whether you analyze the heads of the grass vs the middle of the stems vs the base of the stems (where nitrate accumulates during early spring growth spurts). 

What Standlee doesn't do is provide a guaranteed analysis with maximum and minimums of key nutrients. That is the benefit of a product like ODTBC. Natural variations in nutrients are controlled within ranges. I doubt such control is essential for all equines, as nature's grass supply also varies seasonally. For an aged or ill equine, you may want more consistency.

Cass for Cayuse and Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12


---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I did a full analysis ***

The ESC on #1 test old pellets is 6.3% and the Starch on #1 is .4%.  This is feed from December or November 2014. 

The ESC on #2 test new pellets is 3.4% and the Starch on #2 is .2%.  This is feed from March 2015 ***

Protein old #1 is 9.7%.  Protein new #2 is 12%.

The ESC + Starch are far under 10% it seems odd to me.  Is it nutritious?

Any other questions?  Like why the protein on the new stuff is so much higher?  


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Kerry Isherwood
 

Actually, thanks to Beverly's analyses, I think ill switch my young horse to Standlee's Timothy pellets and off their Alfalfa pellet. He seems to have finally finished growing, mercifully...though its likely a trivial point altogether, considering the pellet portion only comprises 2-3 lbs of his daily diet acting solely as his supp carrier. But very nice to know the Timothy's ESC/starch are so low! Thanks, Beverly, for kindly sharing your results.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Two Standlee Timothy test results

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Beverly,

Your test results aren't at all surprising given they are from different batches of hay. They are also likely from different fields and/or suppliers. Nutrition isn't based on ESC + Starch alone, protein plus all the other minerals amounts are what determine the nutrition profile. That nice, low ESC + Starch just means it is safe from a glycemic response perspective for an IR horse to consume and is the prologue of the book. The rest of the analysis makes up the remaining chapters.

The ESC + Starch and protein will vary widely based on growing conditions (soil, temp, water, sunlight, fertilization) and time of harvesting (both time of day and time of year). I have analyses for over 10 years from the same field, same farmer, same type of mixed grass hay that range in ESC + Starch from 4% to 12% and protein that ranges from 6% to 14.5%. Definitely no alfalfa in my hay.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Two Standlee Timothy test results

beverly meyer
 

I did a full analysis of bags from different times of the year, including the super-hard dark pellets the pony could not chew (#2 test new pellets) and will share if anyone wants them or post to the Files for others.

The ESC on #1 test old pellets is 6.3% and the Starch on #1 is .4%.  This is feed from December or November 2014. 

The ESC on #2 test new pellets is 3.4% and the Starch on #2 is .2%.  This is feed from March 2015 after Standlee went off line in February whcih they said was due to no supply. 

Protein old #1 is 9.7%.  Protein new #2 is 12%.

The ESC + Starch are far under 10% it seems odd to me.  Is it nutritious?

Any other questions?  Like why the protein on the new stuff is so much higher?  Standlee insists there is no Alfalfa but is that why the protein shot up in the new stuff maybe or just the time of harvest?  

Thanks.

Beverly 6/14

Beverly Texas


MESSAGE POSTING ETIQUETTE - KEEPING ECIR USER FRIENDLY

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the guidelines below:

 

1) Sign your posts with your first name, location, the date you joined. When asking for advice, provide a link to your case history or photos. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses to questions and suggestions for local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. Limit your signature to 3 or 4 lines.

 

2) Delete all but the part of the message you're replying to before posting.

Classic Yahoo users: Keep who is saying what clear by leaving the chevrons (>) in front of the text you are answering then type your response in a new paragraph below.

Neo users: click on the words "Show Message History" (located in the lower right corner of the reply box) and erase the text that appears below it.

 

3) Change the subject line when threads take off in new directions indicate the topic . For example: NOW: New Subject (was Old Subject).

 

4) Don't re-post messages if they don't immediately appear on the group or go unanswered. Be patient, a lack of response is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed. Allow roughly 48 hours before re-posting with the words "2nd Post" in the subject line and simply provide the original message's number.

 

5) Off-topic but horse-related discussions: Our sister group ECHorsekeeping provides a place to discuss issues involving non-metabolic horses, general horse keeping practices, lameness, other equine health issues, alternative therapies and equine related philosophical debates.

 

THE ECIR GROUPS:

 

ECHorsekeeping

ECHoof

 For a complete list of our all our sister groups see the ECIR Files Table of Contents

 

 

***WARNING***

Solicitation is against list policy. If contacted privately by someone selling a product or service, be suspicious. These mails frequently target new members or those in a crisis. Often the product or service will not hold up to close examination. It could be harmless but also could be unsafe. Any suggested supplement, treatment, hoof care approach, etc, should be posted on the list so that everyone can benefit from list feedback. If you receive an e-mail selling something, either post to the group to ask about it, or forward the mail to EquineCushings-owner@ yahoogroups.com

 

PROTECTING YOUR PRIVACY

Yahoo uses "Web Beacons" similar to cookies to track Yahoo Group users. If you would like to be removed from Yahoo's analytics services, opt out here:

https://info.yahoo.com/ privacy/us/yahoo/opt_out/ targeting/details.html

 

​​

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List​


91641 - 91660 of 282204