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Re: DST vs TRH to confirm Cushing diagnosis
Hi Heidi
It would be great to know more about your horse. Is there a Case History? Both of the tests you describe have issues. DST has pushed many horses into laminitis. TRH is very sensitive but also has issues. There is a great review of all current tests, their pluses and minuses in Dr Kellons 2013 NO! Laminitis Proceeding on Diagnosis of IR and PPID. You can download it for free in the link below my signature. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 FACT: With over 12,000 members and thousands of detailed case histories the ECIR Group has made it possible to spot patterns, many of which have been confirmed later by formal study. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <heidi.reid45@...> wrote : Hi, I have a horse who has a score of 28.9 ACTH from Cornell blood test.
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DST vs TRH to confirm Cushing diagnosis
Heidi Reid
Hi, I have a horse who has a score of 28.9 ACTH from Cornell blood test. My vet and I want to do further testing to confirm the PPID. Which test is better to use DST or TRH? I looked in the files but could not determine which test is better. I also looked on Cornell's website. Heidi Reid Blacklick, OH June 2014
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Re: hay analysis, better link
By coincidence, my contaminated hay had comparable percentages of Ca (0.28%) and P (0.3%) to your hay. My seat of the pants tabulation shows that the major mineral ratios aren't upside down because ODTBC supplies ample calcium.That's NOT to say that major mineral ratios are within the tight ranges recommended for IR horses. And I didn't include 4 lbs of BP on the back of the envelope.
With no case history for one horse and no weight for Pinky, it's hard to know if your your horses' diets are ideally balanced. JMO that you'd learn a lot from a diet evaluation of the ODTBC, hay and 4 lbs of dry BP you feed compared to an optimal diet based on your IR horses' work load, age and ideal weight. Cass for Cayuse and Satra Sonoma County, CA Oct 12 ---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote : hay analysis : Link https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kerry%20Isherwood%20horse%201/
Kerry wrote: Both of my IRs are on 15 lbs ODTB/day, plus 1oz flax (TC Omega Max), VIt E Oil (Uckele), and 1oz iodized salt (more on hot days). The above grass hay is given for boredom, and I've been soaking it until I got the analysis back. The amt eaten of the soaked grass hay by each IR is less than 5lbs/day. Im guessing b/c the hay cubes are the bulk of the diet that I shouldn't be too concerned abt the inverse Ca:Phos on the baled hay -- more that I'm curious what would cause an imbalance as such?
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Re: split peas/fresh peas
Bonnie
My pony would not eat split peas as is. He eats them happily if they have been soaked. At first I soaked them separately, but now add them, with water, to his tub of ODTB cubes in the morning. By suppertime cubes are fluffy and peas softened. BTW This time around I used green split peas, not yellow. He just seems to like them better. Bonnie Ivey, Ontario 12/08
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Re: Need Opinions on Jasper Trim 6/1/2015. Now APF Question
Larks Tabatha
Hi Jaini et al...
When I look at the info about APF Pro on Auburn Lab's website, I see the following:
Hoping to learn why you are recommending it at this point for Jasper. Thanks very much, Sally in N.AZ April 2013
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Re: split peas/fresh peas
>Two other sources of protein that are often recommended are whey protein isolate 90% (30 grams = 27 grams of protein) and Pea Powder. My horses are ancient,so I grind the whole peas, which I get from the feed store. Pea Powder. 
Lorna
in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Re: split peas/fresh peas
Hi Karen,
Are her protein and lysine requirements being met by her diet? How much additional protein do you want to supplement? I checked a nutritional data site and 1 cup of frozen unprepared) peas has 7 grams of protein and one cup of dried split peas has 48 grams of protein. Two other sources of protein that are often recommended are whey protein isolate 90% (30 grams = 27 grams of protein) and Pea Powder. I forgot to write down the protein available in pea powder, but you can find it on the Pure Bulk site. Coincidentally, the whey protein isolate and pea powder are on sale right now. Kathy Brinkerhoff SE/WI 10/12 Whey Protein Isolate (90%) - Bodybuilding Supplement
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Re: hay analysis, better link
My approach was:
"Can I go over these hay test results with you? I'm spending a fortune on minerals. May I take and pay for a soil test and then we could go over the results?" The first year I paid for fertilizing my swath of hay. Never had to do that again but not everyone would be willing to do this. I'm a wayward master gardener, knew we could do better, and was 99% certain he would be happy with results. Cooperative Extension folks are wonderful in freely sharing info. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 FACT: Fructans were a highly popular theory of the cause of laminitis approximately 10 years ago. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote : Nancy, thanks for the info, thats an excellent site to pass on. Now, how to tactfully broach the subject with the grower....
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Back again - Diet update?
myharleywood
Hi all, Lorna & LeeAnne, I apologize I've not got your current email addresses it seems or I would have emailed you privately to not clog up the MB. I've looked in the "Start here" file to get updated diet recommendations as it's been since 2007 since I've had to be so attentive (lucky me!). I now have a horse in my barn that is showing VERY early clinical signs so we're just trying to get on it right away. So - my question is simple - other than not using Cinnamon - have there been any major changes to the protocol for diet? We are planning to do blood work for sure but I'm not 100% sure he's advanced enough that it will show anything. Vet is recommending one of the following - Dex Suppression, ACTH suppression (I think) but I remember just using the ACTH level test. Has that changed? Thanks so much in advance. Erica Uxbridge, ON
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Re: split peas/fresh peas
kansteen5545@...
Hi -
I'm thinking of how I can get extra protein into my mare's diet. She can't have to much Alfalfa - I tried split peas but they are really hard for my mare to chew. I was wondering if fresh or frozen peas would be O.K. - they are softer but would they add too much of something that my mare shouldn't have? Karen ME/2014
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Re: hay analysis, better link
Kerry Isherwood
Nancy, thanks for the info, thats an excellent site to pass on. Now, how to tactfully broach the subject with the grower....
Really goes to show how the 'looks' of a hay bale can be so deceptive. This stuff is so green, & so dry, it looks like the beautiful loads that come in from the western states later in the year -- the enormous bales weigh next to nothing and literally explode when cut apart into a gorgeous sweet-smelling cascade of hay heaven -- we joke that we want to roll around in it at the end of each day bc it most definitely smells better than we do...but i digress Thx again! Just wish I paid as much attention to my own diet as I do to my horses'... Kerry in NY Sept 2014
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Re: hay analysis, better link
Hi Kerry
A great resource for your hay guy is the Cornell University Cooperative Extension Cornell Soil Health
Their outreach looks to have good programs/publications. http://soilhealth.cals.cornell.edu/extension/index.htm My grower and I have worked hard testing and amending the soil here and it's had a very positive impact on hay quality, better major mineral blance, less iron and manganese. Less need to buy minerals to balance. Grower has gotten average 30 percent higher yield. Win. Win. Win. Win. Testing soil after crop is in allows for pH amendment and some fertilizer to start to get where it needs to go over the winter. Nancy C in NH FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences. See E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
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ECIR FILES - SEARCH-AND-CLICK TABLE OF CONTENTS
ThePitchforkPrincess@...
To quickly find information in the files use the ECIR Files Table of Content Note: the above link takes you to a Dropbox document containing the latest PDF version of the TOC.
The ECIR Table of Contents (TOC) lists all documents in the all ECIR Groups Files sections. Case Histories, Hay Analysis, Member Work Sheets and Photos have been excluded. In the TOC you will also find "Also See" sections linking to information that cannot be found in the files.
Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists
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Re: Questions on Pain Killers - Free PhytoQuench samples
---In EquineCushings@..., <layzd@...> wrote : Dr. Kellon, what pain meds/relief would you recommend for broken pastern bone? Only enough to keep the horse eating and drinking normally. Horses vary in their sensitivity so work with your vet to find the best plan. Pain is your friend in this case, as it is with laminitis. Too much weightbearing can bring catastrophe. The fracture must be stabilized to heal, surgically or in a cast although neither method is fool proof with the weight of a horse. There is also the risk of laminitis in the opposite leg. Long term consequences can include severe arthritis if the fracture extends to joint surfaces. Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner Feb 2001
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Re: hay analysis, better link
Kerry Isherwood
Fascinating! Thanks so much Tara! I suspect the 'quickie fertilizer' was the culprit. I know the grower, he's a 'lawn guy' who decided to start making hay for extra money. Ill try to ascertain what fertilizer(s) & methods were used.
One of my IRs boards at the grower's farm so this first cut is the 'house hay', but fortunately he only eats 2-3 flakes/day (less than 5lbs). However, definitely not a hay I want to pay for! Thanks for the responses & for correcting my faulty link Kerry in NY Sept NY
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Re: hay analysis, better link
tara sullivan
Hi Kerry,
The soil in our region of NY is usually quite acidic and always in need of lime/calcium amendment. Some areas also don't have much top soil and organic matter tends to be low as well. These are not conditions for good plant growth-plants for hay, that is. Moss, weeds, locust and cedar tree saplings, etc...do just fine! Lime/calcium amendments take years to establish...there are different sources of lime, with different breakdown times and it takes tons per acre to do the job. And they need to be replenished on a regular basis...like 2 tons per acre every 3 years. Some growers choose to skip this step and just throw down chemical fertilizer in the spring to pump up what grass and forage plants are growing in the field. These are usually some combination of nitrogen phosphorous and potassium-like Triple 19. This may be the reason for the inverted ratio. Also, chemical fertilizers exacerbate acidic soils....so if a grower uses them they really need to double down on their lime application. Tara from NY
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Re: hay analysis, better link
>Your hay analysis is on echistory8. Lorna
in Ontario,Canada ECIR Moderator 2002
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Re: hay analysis, better link
corrine haffner
Hi Kerry
Your hay analysis is on echistory8. Corrine And Jasper MN 4/2014
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Re: hay analysis, better link
Kerry Isherwood
The hay analysis is in Pinky's folder, labelled as horse 1. Hopefully this link works:
https://xa.yimg.com/df/echistory8/hay+analysis+june+2015+pdf.pdf?token=1MfA3qTJjL8x8_Ugubz-EQyewXZYaVf5r8IEY7W80-o2QCfaC-_xeUtJWAzskRfNwFsweaqHhYN1tZ7IIHa5gd568KaBw4xTckrX97zmFaALaJnir-EY-Tl8ik1Xl3cjQ5VXEASStQQnJOWCBm1uQLWcI4V5vI4rqrjGfzIGGPWUhGs&type=download Ugh, its still the file name. I cant figure out how to add link from my file. Sorry... Heres the brief #s Calcium 0.25% Phosphorus 0.32% From the "as sampled" column. Thought that ratio was curious Kerry in NY Sept 2014
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Re: hay analysis, better link
Hi, Kerry. Instead of the file name, how about a link to the enclosing case history file where you uploaded it? I find nothing in EC History 8, and your folder is empty... or so Yahoo says.
I've never seen Ca:P upside down, so I'm curious. The only hay that ever analyzed with a perfect Ca: P ratio turned out to be contaminated with cow paddies. You can read about phosphorus ratios in animal manures here: http://animalwaste.okstate.edu/bmps/f-2249web.pdf Cass for Cayuse and Satra Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12 ---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :
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