Date   

Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Lorna Cane
 


> No, it didn't have Yucca.

It seems there is more than one Biotin Plus.
One has Yucca.The other does not appear to have Yucca. 
Great.

You were using the Smart Pak product,probably,Beverly?

http://www.bigdweb.com/Biotin-Plus-Powder-20-Lb/productinfo/633P/

https://www.smartpakequine.com/ps/ps/biotin-plus-817


Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


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Re: Hard swollen sheath

janieclougher@...
 

Hi Kathy,

During the seasonal rise, a PPID horse will have much more of an elevation in ACTH than a normal horse.   An ACTH of 28 in a horse during the seasonal rise (assuming he is not on pergolide) pretty much rules out Cushings;  while an ACTH during May or June, when it should be lowest, puts that horse squarely into the "Grey area; re-test during seasonal rise"  category. 

Since it looks like Ulysses had a mid-August ACTH of 28, it also looks like he is not Cushings.  My idea of using the TRH stim test was unnecessary because of this August result.

Therefore, he shouldn't be on pergolide; it is possible that the improvement of signs after the  introduction of the pergolide in October, and raising it .2 mg in January, is a coincidence/red herring. Ulysses has a lot of confounding factors, between the CPL and various allergies.

IF he was truly PPID, then under the circumstances I would recommend getting ACTH into the mid-teens if possible.  However, it looks like I was running down the wrong trail!

Regarding dose: as Dr. Kellon says, the correct dose of pergolide is the one that controls the ACTH.




---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi Jaini,

Can you please expand on the significance of the ACTH of 28 during the seasonal rise for Ulysses.

Would you still recommend getting his ACTH in the mid teens?  

If a 0.8 mg dose of Pergolide is probably insignificant for a 1750# Draft should he even be on pergolide or should he be on a higher dose?!

I am not connecting the dots. :-)

Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12









 


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Nancy C
 

Yucca is listed on the web site for Biotin Plus.  In a big way, in fact.

As you have heard, testing two bags is not going to help you balance. Using the products previously suggested will get you through until you can do a complete test and analysis.

I believe both Dr Kellon and Dr Clougher mentioned mucus, not fat.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.  See  Smithey and Gustafson, Nutrition Complexities and Mineral Profiles of Hay 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

I forgot to take Biotin Plus off the list. She's been off that. No, it
didn't have Yucca.


Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

So back to colic troubles  not sure how that could be??, he's on the supplement that Dr kellon reccomended  gets it twice a day before doxy. Only change is PQ and ALCAR  and the ODTB cubes hay is the same grass hay. 

Other change would be the increased hoof pain,and laying down a lot. He's eating hay but is uncomfortable while eating swishing tail,biting at sides. Had vet out again today for the colic nothing obviously wrong, guts sounds are good,not impacted, manure out put is the same,peeing normal. He's not thrashing and violent just uncomfortable. 

He's been standing now for past 1 1/2 hours so paws the ground ,i think ulcers are acting up again seems to be same symptoms,as before.  Vet thinks i should treat him for ulcers i don't know what to do,that's one more thing to syringe in him every day. How would ulcer treatment effect PQ and ALCAR and supplement he gets before doxy??

Really don't understand how he could have gastric ulcers he also gets aloe vera juice 2oz along with supplement.Maybe the stress of pain has brought on the ulcers?? 

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

beverly meyer
 

I forgot to take Biotin Plus off the list. She's been off that. No, it didn't have Yucca.
Actually the problem may have started when she went off that. She was only on 1/2 dose for her size, but it did have B5 which can help fat digestion.
Dr. Kellon, if it is not fat malabsorption what would it be? The donkey had this when he had hypretriglycerides from underfeeding. It cleared up as he got more food.
Also, Dr. Kellon, it's not 1 ounce of flax to 25 pounds manure, as she gets 8 pounds of food/day. Not sure how much manure that makes!
Just so odd that both animals have/had this at different times and they eat mostly ODTB but have had it at different times. I'm open to thoughts on how to test with a fat digestion supplement if anyone has an idea.
I did do a Standlee analysis on 2 bags in May, and it is now in the ECIR Feed files. Taking the course now and will learn how to read results but can someone look at the tests now and help me with missing nutrients?
Her feed has not changed though so why the change in manure?
Thanks.
Beverly 6/14
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/


Re: Pony problem

hinecedark@...
 

Thank you very much Nancy. I will be a little more patient about the crest. His foot comfort has improved 100% with no changes other than beginning the pergolide, so PPID is still at the top of the list. Hoping the crest will help me find a good starting dose until we test in a couple of months, but will be increasing if any foot discomfort returns, for sure. We'll see . . . .

Thanks again,

Melinda

IN 2010




Re: Pony problem

Nancy C
 

It's really hard to know how quickly the crest is going to respond when one might have  issues other than diet driving IR. I would expect a response fairly quickly when on the right dose of pergolide if the primary driver is uncontrolled PPID. We talk about the horses reaching  good point for retesting in about three weeks, so, would expect your crest would reduce by the time if it is  PPID driven and you are within a good range for the pony.

If it s not PPID and those areas (Lyme, Iron overload, mare issues) are not addressed, IME, you will not see the crest go down.

I know you are probably keeping good records of symptoms.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Some mares are refractory to good control of IR by the usual diet measures.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, www.ecirhorse.org


Hoof help, please

 

Ford, my 20-year-old compensated IR gelding, became very lame immediately after the farrier trimmed him. I've gone from thinking it was a bad trim (been losing confidence in farrier. Photos show why), to thinking it could be an abscess (we've had flooding here and now it's dry) to worrying about laminitis, For some time I've worried about subclinical laminitis. Tender over rocks, but otherwise sound. Now in addition to being lame, his sheath (always some swollen) has become very swollen. My assumption is that this is due to inactivity. I had the vet out yesterday to take blood for ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin and to do x-rays. X-ray machine turned out to be broken so she'll be back out later this week. I'll post those when available. In the meantime, I'm hoping for some help from Lavinia regarding directing my farrier/making changes. I do have a rasp but limited skills in this area. Thank you in advance.


Fran in Texas

2005

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ford%20Case%20History/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1214900120



Re: DST vs TRH to confirm Cushing diagnosis

Heidi Reid
 

Hi DR Kellon,

Case History:  20 yr old QTR horse Appendix.  Treated for EPM in April of 2013 and Feb of 2015.  He also has Shivers.   I had Checkers' insulin tested last June 2014 as a base line since my other horse was IR  diagnosed June 2014 

Checkers' insulin test , Jun 2014, came  back in the low normal range. 

Last month my bare foot trimmer noticed some bruising along Checkers' white line on both front feet.   She thought it might be metabolic related. He has never  had laminitis in the 2 yrs we owned him.

 He has shown no other metabolic symptoms other than shedding out slowly this year.  I had my vet  do Endogenous ACTH test May of 2015.
His ACTH baseline came back 28.9. My vet recommended doing TRH test since he was in the upper range.

Heidi Reid,
Blacklick, OH June 2014


Re: ACTH Question- Blood Results

Maggie
 

Hi Caryn,

In addition to the information Lavinia gave you, I had one additional thought.  How much APF were you giving Narco to help avoid the pergolide veil?  Some members have found that they have to give quite a bit more than 1-2mls, even up to 6-8ml, or even 10mls.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

He's a 4 this morning for pain,doing capaisin 8 times a day. He's been a bit colicky this morning biting at stomach, when he's up pawing at ground. 

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8


KSU Iron results -- still send to Dr. Kellon?

Kerry Isherwood
 

There's a note in the "Files" re: KSU iron results to please have a copy sent to Dr. Kellon but it's dated 2008.  Is the note still valid?

Thanks,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014



another question on phyto-quench /princess & sue

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hello, thank you for the info
... princess is up to 1 dose a day I have to feed her in small feedings but shes down to 3 times and she has one full does.. I do give it with the timothy cubes soaked.. I did today take her down to 1/2 tab of bute 2X's a day starting today.
I have noticed a change in her shes moving a little more and not taking her day time laying  down time.. shes been on it for 4 today I think its 5 days.. but will this bring out abases? she has 2 that came to the cornery band is is a slow drain.. on the same hoof..I'm wrapping it with vet wrap but would gauze be better under the vet wrap?  that's the one she seems to be more sore on, before the abscesses came out?  
also it there a search place on the curshing sight so I can put in phyto quench and it will bring up all that was said on this topic? I can't find it.. if there's one? Also with her off the bute and on the P-Q should let her heal faster? right..
sorry for all the questions..
thanks Sue & princess
oh 6/11


Re: Hard swollen sheath

Sharon Manning
 

Hi there,
My guy Blaze had this very issue. I posted about it not too long ago.
When he was diagnosed for ppid and started on his compounded pergo it went down in just a matter of days. It was so large and hard lumps on both sides. One side being worse than the other. He looked like a volleyball with two testicles attached. He also had Edema in his chest area. He had gained weight during our very cold winter and he was already over weight. I measured his long coat and it was 5 inches long! When he got wet it would curl up. I new he was cushings as this will be my third horse but vet would not write scrip because his blood work was sent to Michigan state(false neg). It was really cold and that altered the numbers for everything looks like, esp. The thyroid. ((Think my vet would have known that)) but NO I had to find that out here$$$$. Vet took the lymph direction instead. Cleaned the sheath, said it was very dirty....(she must not know dirty...) Needless to say I asked dr k about the steroids before I gave them (thank god) and got my head together and weighted for the weather to warm. As soon as it stabilized at a fair temp I got the vet out again with all the directions for Cornell and tested again. As she was driving out the drive way I started him on left over pracasend. He was better in just a couple of days. By the time the vet confirmed ppid he was a different horse. She has now written a scrip for compounded and I can say after a couple of months he appears to have lost some weight but it could just be the reduction in edema. His sheath is much much better with still some hardness.(he is very obese) The swelling is all gone and no longer looks as if he is a stallion. He looks very good with the exception of weight and his personality has a little more of a spark. I stared him also on CoQ10 to see if that might help with the fat inflammation ( he has been on the recommendation diet for 6 plus years). I warn you it is expensive, so not sure I can keep it up but will let all know if it seems to help. Hope blazes story helps you.
Sharon
East TN
2006

Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: Hard swollen sheath

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Dr. Kellon & Mods,

I did a search on Levamisole in the message archives and quite a few messages came up from over the years.  I would still like to ask how  you determine in which situations you should consider using it?   Do you use it year long or for just a limited course of treatment?    


Thank you.

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




 


RePost: Pony problem #194550

hinecedark@...
 


Re: Hard swollen sheath

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Jaini,

Can you please expand on the significance of the ACTH of 28 during the seasonal rise for Ulysses.

Would you still recommend getting his ACTH in the mid teens?  

If a 0.8 mg dose of Pergolide is probably insignificant for a 1750# Draft should he even be on pergolide or should he be on a higher dose?!

I am not connecting the dots. :-)

Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12









 


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


--In EquineCushings@..., <janieclougher@...> wrote :

Shiny poop is more commonly caused by a mucus coating,
= = = = = = = =

I have to agree with Jaini.  There's not enough fat in 1.5 oz of flax, or equivalent, to coat 25+ pounds of manure.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Help with Jiaogulan?

Maggie
 

Hi Belinda,

Welcome to the list.  Sorry to hear about your dad.  Tough time for sure.  

Jaini has already given you some great information, and has you ready for the vet's visit today.  I'll go into more detail about our philosophy called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  Like Jaini said, it's a rather steep learning curve to learn and get all four aspects in place, but so worth it!  To give you the best help we ask members to fill out a case history on their horse.  If you could do that sometime between now and when you get your lab work back it will give us the details to help you better.  To fill out a CH you need to join our sister group called ECHistory8, the "filing cabinet" where we store case histories.  It should not take long to get approved.  The instructions for filling out a CH are on the main page.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info   If yo have any trouble let us know.  We can help you!  More details about the DDT/E philosophy....

Diagnosis:  Jaini has already given you the details of what labs to draw and to do them on a NON-fasting horse.  So I won't repeat that.  Just a quick explanation about why these 4 tests, ACTH, insulin glucose and leptin.  Endocrinopathic laminitis from insulin resistance (IR) or Cushing's disease (PPID) is the most common cause of laminitis.  These 4 tests help us to identify the cause.  Getting the correct diagnosis of  just PPID, just IR or both helps to dictate the treatment.  PPID, not normally seen in horses under the age of 10, is an enlargement or benign tumor in a part of the pituitary gland called the pars intermedia.  It is treated with a medicine called pergolide.  IR is a "metabolic type" of horse, normally, but not always, described as easy keepers with abnormal fat pads such as cresty necks, fat in the hollows of the eye, sheath, etc.  IR is treated with a low carb, low fat, mineral balanced diet.  A horse that has both PPID and IR would need both pergolide and a carefully managed diet for the rest of it's life.

Diet:  To provide the low carb, (less than 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or less), mineral balanced diet, we use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the diet, plus salt and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.  As Jaini said, for now, best to use the Emergency diet as she described.  More details about the emergency diet can be found on our website here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  The concept behind the emergency diet is to remove the possible triggers from the diet.  It is meant to be used only temporarily until you can get your hay tested and balanced.  Since you board, we will probably have to have more discussion about how to test and balance your hay.  Meanwhile, just soak it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove an average of 30% of the sugar content.  Makes sure you dump the soaking water where the horses can't get to it.  And then feed the salt, magnesium, Vitamin E and ground flax seed in the rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp.  Is he eating that beet pulp OK?  If not, we can make some other safe carrier recommendations.  Just let us know.

As important as what you DO feed is what you DON'T feed!  No grazing!  No sugary treats including apples and carrots.  No molasses containing products.  No red/brown salt blocks--white only.  Stop the Primeglo--it has a sugar content of 7.8% plus 5.9% starch, and contains a minimum of 8% fat.  Stop the Smarthoof circulate and the SmartCombo.  They both contain alfalfa and vegetable oil.  Alfalfa can make some horses footsore and vegetable oil has an upside down Omega 3:6 ratio.  We use ground flax seed to provide the Omega 3's and 6's because it has the closest ratio to grass, about 4:1.

Just a bit more detail about when to start Jherb in message #184957 from Kellon that says this: "I avoid it during the first 72 hours. This is how long the acute inflammatory reaction lasts. Endocrinopathic laminitis is not primarily an inflammatory event but tissue damage triggers an inflammatory reaction. There is mounting evidence that high insulin leads to the vessels being resistant to the normal dilating effect of insulin, resulting in vessel spasm. Whatever the mechanism might be, I'm cautious about trying to increase blood flow when the vessels may be constricted or clotted.  If the cause has been removed, e.g. by addressing diet, Jiaogulan can be started after 72 hours."  Also, we don't recommend NSAID's (i.e.bute) after the first few days of laminitis as it interferes with healing.  You don't want to use bute and Jherb together.

Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  It's often the last piece of the puzzle to fall into place in getting a laminitic horse comfortable.  To help you make sure that you have an optimum healing trim in place, we encourage you to post pictures of your horse's feet, as well as any xrays you may have.  If needed, our resident hoof guru can do "markups" for your farrier/trimmer.  Please visit this site to learn how to take the best hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html  All photos and xrays should be posted in the PHOTOS section of the ECH8 site, the site you join to fill out your CH.

Exercise:  The best IR buster there is!  BUT, a laminitic horse should never be forced to move!  Boots and pads are definitely in order to help get your boy more comfortable.  Let us know if you don't have those and we can make some recommendations.  Once able to move around comfortably, hand walking in long straight lines with no tight turns is recommended.

Ok, Belinda, I know we've given you a lot of information!  Don't get overwhelmed.  Just take your time and study the information we've provided.  Read all the parts of our website:  http://ecirhorse.org/   There is a TON of great information there!  It's also a great place to send your vet!  There is also a ton of great information in our files and archived messages.  You can probably find anything you might think to ask there.  But don't hesitate to ask us any questions you have!  Hang in there!  It's a steep learning curve, but it does all get easier!

We ask all members to sign each time they post with their name, date of joining  and general location.  Once you fill out your CH, please put a link to it in your signature as well.  It helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

Thanks for your updated Case History.

I cannot speak to your fat absorbtion theory but have a few ideas for Ginger based on what you are feeding.

Biotin Plus has Yucca in it.  Yucca has a cortisol effect. and since you are trying to get insulin down I would discontinue if she were here.  See FILE search on Yucca and also see archive message search, drkellon as author, and yucca in message body.

It also appears you are missing Selenium, copper and zinc, all hugely important for IR, skin, feet.

Best choice is to get a load of Standlee, test and balance. You've undoubtedly heard that before. Next best is to switch to California Trace or AZ Copper Complete (Horsetech).  Can't remember the biotin levels but you could always add seperately if you need more. 

The use of high levels of biotin in horses to control IR comes from human medicine and as far as I am aware there is no evidence in horses that it works.

You can read about the effect the above suggestions have in the 2013 Proceedings on ecirhorse.org.

Nancy C in NH
ECOR Group Mod
FEbruary 2003


---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Ginger's history is updated and posted now.

Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/

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