Re: The IR blues...NOW: the complete picture

Nancy C

Hi Kerry

I should clarify, was not necessarily speakling just to you.  I think I know you know what ECIR conerns are about testing for PPID.  Wanted also to speak to folks who are mostly new to us or had not considered the variations in lab testing and the impact it may or may not have on PPID diagnosis.  Or IR diagnosis for that matter.

Besides sneaking the green or forbidden stuff and uncontrolled PPID, high insulin can be driven by lyme disease, iron overload and mare issues.  I know you know that. :-)

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator
February 2003

Learn a lot more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, November 6-9, 2015, Georgetown TX.



Re: The IR blues...

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

SPEP = serum protein electrophoresis.  The lab that does your CBC and chem should be able to do it.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Re: Clippers for Cushings Coat

Donna Powell

From: "Dee Kenville ndeewoods@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2015 12:47 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Clippers for Cushings Coat

Yes I do, but it is super easy and there are only a couple things to oil like that....:)
Dee from Santa Cruz, CA


Re: The IR blues...NOW: the complete picture

Kerry Isherwood

Hey Nancy,

Believe me, I do not want another PPID horse! I really dont think my gelding is truly PPID at 8 yrs old, but want to be thorough w the bloodwork work-up. He has no other PPID symptoms other than this new (possible) refractory hyperinsulinemia.

A reknown show hunter trainer I chatted with recently remarked that she has many of her horses on pergolide, especially her ponies. She puts them on it "whenever their insulin gets high". Holy crap! Who's prescribing this? Scary!

Anyway, i do appreciate your input. I think there was a slip in my gelding's routine and his IR flare is just that, a temporary flare. Unfortunately he's boarded, is in the front paddock along the road, and has the friendly 'please feed me' face that he uses without shame. He even ate my "No Treats" sign off the fence but luckily left the more serious "Im diabetic!" one in place (thought using bigger medical terms might help with compliance).

Ill post my CH, rads, body/hoof photos, bloodwork hay analysis etc later today.

Thx again,

I have been away, ponys feet are a mess...


Hello Groupies,

I have been away for a while, in the mean time my farrier has been doing ponys feet which were looking pretty good , 

I think she must have had another bout of sinking or something, but on with the request.

her feet are seriously a mess I think my guy who does great with the mark ups went back to his old ways of treating founder feet..

she is not lame but careful and short striding..her feet look deformed.

I would like some advise on a trim for her with some mark ups for farrier if anyone has the time...

will post pics of feet when told to do so 

Thanks so much...


in oregon


Re: The IR blues...NOW: the complete picture

Nancy C

Just a reminder for young diagnosed horses. The complete picture needs to be taken in to account: symptoms, how the horse was diagnosed, time of year, what test, and under what conditions. . Even which lab. Why we want you to understand the differences in recommended tests.

Sticking my neck out here but suspect that there are more than a few horses, hopefully not on this list, that are unnecessarily on pergolide because the whole picture was not looked at.

It's why we are so tough in asking for your updated case history.  We want to help you look at the whole picture, with all details in place, before you make a decision.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  With over 12,000 members and thousands of detailed case histories the ECIR Group has made it possible to spot patterns, many of which have been confirmed later by formal study.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.


Re: The IR blues...

Kerry Isherwood

Is SPEP aka Chemistry?

I have fresh serum in freezer to send out on Monday for iron et al at KSU. Ill also draw & send for

Lyme titers
Ehrlichia (?) my local vets idea
& the iron

Anything else?

Kerry in NY

Re: The IR blues...


LOL Yes that young.  I'll pick your jaw up from where mine fell when I first saw that too!

I've cleaned up your case history folders.  You now have one folder with two sub-folders for your two horses.  This was done to cut down on the need for having your hay analysis posted in two different folders.  This way any documents about the individual horses can go in their individual sub- folders and documents that apply to both can be in the Kerry Isherwood folder.  

Your link is 

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004


Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats 

Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials 

Re: The IR blues...

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Don't forget we're also in peak tick season.  Lyme is the most well known of tick borne infections but likely only the tip of the iceberg.  Infection of any sort will worsen IR.  Could check a CBC, maybe SPEP too, for any signs of infection.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Re: The IR blues...

Kerry Isherwood

Wow, that young for PPID? Incredible. I did an ACTH last fall at IR diagnosis (mid-teens, # not in front of me). Guess ill do another. Why the heck not? Ive alway got a package on its way to Cornell for my mare's ongoing bloodwork ;)

Thx for that info. I forget the database is there. Excellent reference

My gelding had moderate front pulses last night but was only slightly tender on tight circles. Going out now to scalp the fencelines again with the weed-whacker just so i feel like im doing something. CH almost finished, just have to proof it.

Thx so much

Re: The IR blues...


Hi Kerry,
You asked if 8 years old is too young for PPID?  The answer is no.  In the Pergolide Dosage Database, there is an Age of Diagnosis Chart (use the Database Statistics link in the Database then scroll down).

In that chart it shows 5 equines who were diagnosed at the age of 8 and under.  

two were aged 6, one was 7 and two more were 8.   

Perhaps the other volunteers may remember other IR horses on tight diets that needed extremely low sugar/starch feed.  

Yes do update the case history -  you - or the volunteers- may find a clue to help bring down that insulin.  
Hang in there Kerry!  

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004


Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

Re: Clippers for Cushings Coat


Getting in late on this conversation, but...

I used the Andis clippers on my mini, Stormy who had winter hair like Yak fur...and they worked well.  It would take quite a while to clip a full sized horse with these clippers though.
Something that helped me tremendously was a tip I got on ECHorsekeeping.  After bathing your horse, spray all over with Show Sheen.  You won't believe how much easier the blades glide through the hair. 

Teri and Stormy... running circles around the other horses in horsey heaven.   She would have given the Energizer Bunny a run for his money in her younger days! :-) 
Indy 2012

Re: Escaped pony!

beverly meyer

Happy pony today, thank goodness.
I iced last night for a few hours only, and withheld Alcar and JHerb but added extra magnesium.
Today no pulses, and the lowest heart rate I ever took on her, at 38, so she's good.
Thanks everyone. I had a little chat with the groomer who left her gate open....
Beverly 6/14

Re: Help with Jiaogulan?


Hi Belinda,

You are welcome!  And no worries on when you get back to posting. It's a busy as well as emotional time.

Cute name, Bug!  Glad to hear he is feeling somewhat better in his Soft Rides!  As far as the icing goes, you don't have to soak his feet in ice, but can also opt to wrap ice around his hooves/lower legs.  You can use ice boots like this:

Or may even have the ice blankets like these below in your freezer already:

Or you may want to try this--first file in this folder: 

Also there are several files in the below folder that you should read. "Cooling and Warming when you can't soak"  "Lameness and Vasodilation"  "Laminitis--P3 realignment basic information"  

Yes, getting them to eat BP can sometimes be a problem.  Some love it, some hate it and some just take a while to get used to it.  Safe alternatives to beet pulp are:

1)  Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (you will see them referred to as ODTB's here).  They are guaranteed to be under 10% sugar + starch and the minerals are balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications.  Any store that carries Triple Crown products should be able to get them for you if they don't have them in stock.  If you add warm water to them, they break down into a damp, soft mass of chopped hay--great for getting the supps to stick.

2)  Nuzu Stabul 1 (not the "plus").  They are guaranteed to be under 10% sugar+starch.  Any Tractor Supply store can order them if not in stock.  Here's their website:   Randy at Anderson feed is the contact if you have any trouble getting TSC to order it.  They will also send you a sample if you email them.  And they make low sugar starch horse treats as well.

3)  Soy hull pellets.  Those can be high in iron, though and may need more in the way of balancing.

4)  A handful of Triple Crown Lite.

To answer your questions.

1. When should I start walking him? I got him out of the stall today for one trip up the aisle way. He's walking with a slight limp on the right front. I didn't want to push it, so I put him back in his stall. 

2. We x-rayed his right front a month ago and everything looked really good. My vet advised we hold off on more x-rays until next week after we get blood work back. My concern is that if he is rotated and I try walking him, am I going to cause more damage?

No, I you do not want to push him.  You don't want to damage the fragile new laminae as they grow in.  This is also where the trim becomes a critical part of the formula.  The toes and heels must be properly trimmed to avoid any extra stress on those fragile new laminae.  If you can get the hoof pics and xrays posted we can help you to evaluate if your trim is optimal.  Very often it's not, even in some folks who come here with the "the best farrier in the world."  More information on a proper trim can be found on our website here:  and here:   Your farrier/trimmer may be doing a fine job--we just can't see that unless you post the pics and xrays.  I think you will know once he is comfortable enough to start taking some nice slow long straight walks. Don't force him.  Let him move around as he will in his soft rides.  And once you do start walking him,  avoid tight turns which also puts stress the the new laminae. 

3. Since I board, hay control is out of my hands. I did get hay analysis done a couple of times in 2011 and 2012, but not since then. The results were pretty similar. We use the same grower, he delivers hay every two weeks, and its fairly consistent in quality. I plan on getting an analysis done again now - I am taking my samples on Monday. If I post some of the older analysis along with the new one when I get it back, is there a way to mineral balance keeping in mind that there may be some slight variances in each load?

Many folks on the list board and some folks have found some innovative ways to store and test hay.  In this folder is a file called "Hay--finding and storing" that you may find helpful:   It's the 9th file down.  And here:  
The fact that your hay all comes from the same field is helpful as far as mineral balancing, tho you may not get the really tight mineral balancing that so many PPID and IR horses need .  It's the sugar and starch content that can be so variable.  So many factors influence the s/s--drought, fertilization, time of day it was cut, get the idea.  IF you can find a way to store enough hay for Bug and have it balanced, that's the best way.  One of our balancing folks can certainly work with you and the hay tests that you have.   Look at the first folder (Getting help with mineral balancing) in this file for a list of balancing folks:   There are also some good products that can come close to balancing your hay, California Trace and Arizona Copper Complete.

4. When should I switch from the bute to J-Herb? Do his pulses need to be completely normal? Does he need to be walking normally?

We don't recommend bute after the first few days, so I would be weaning that off.  The best way to do that is to  increase the time between doses.  Read this post from Nancy and follow the links in it for more info: 

More information on Jherb in this file:  

Also, reread my first post to you.  I had a bit from Dr Kellon about when to start the Jherb.  I know how easy it is to miss stuff!  Lots of information in an overwhelming situation!  Hang in there!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA

Re: Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

Pamela Bramell


I have been on this list since 12/10.  I have to say I do not recall anybody going through what you are dealing with between Chardonnay and Jasper.  I just want to commend you on your courage and your stick-to-it attitude.  You are an incredible horse person and it is humbling to watch you navigate the path you are on.

I pray you can find some sleep and some peace for yourself and Jasper.  If there is anything I can do, please let me know.  Prayers for healing for Jasper.  Buttercup blew abscesses for a while after she got her diet and trim straightened out.  She had so much junk in her hoof that needed to come out.  It's hard to watch them go through it, but it is good to get it out.  Glad they seemed to have blown, even though there are holes in his hooves right now. The holes can heal.  Better to have that stuff out then in.

Hang in there.  I think you probably have thousands of people on this list rooting for you and Jasper.  

Pam in Va -totally inspired by you

Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Another thought: My journal says the blue-black manure started when we
got on ALCAR.
Maybe it's mobilizing and excreting fat stores?
= = = = = = = = =

Impossible.  ALCar doesn't mobilize fat.  Even if it did, fat does not get "excreted" into the bowel or anywhere else.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Can i give him Dormosedan i have some on hand??
= = = = = = = = =

You really need to work with your own vet directly on questions like this.  Dormosedan is contraindicated in horses with respiratory disease or any evidence of heart block (which only your vet would know) and you have to consider interactions with other drugs he is on.  It has a fairly short duration of action and causes a rise in blood sugar with compensatory insulin surge after the drug wears off.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.


I've had really good luck with using a baby diaper placed over the hoof bottom/sole to cover the abcces hole before I put on the duct tape.    It stays clean and absorbs any drainage .  Just use the sticky tabs to go around the fetlock area then duct tape the hoof wall and bottom.


Re: Clippers for Cushings Coat

Dee Kenville <ndeewoods@...>

Re: Newly diagnosed pony, feeling overwhelmed....


Hi, Sarah - here is the long post as promised.  If you do nothing else this week, soak the pony's hay (Temporary Emergency Diet); carry on with her meds; and sit down with many cups of tea to read the files you were sent when you joined. It is normal to feel overwhelmed - the approach to all this information is the same approach one takes to eating an elephant: one bite at a time.

Also, since you are in the UK, check out the Laminitis Site


To be double sure we are answering your questions correctly, we need a little more information. Please take a few minutes and join EC History 8:
Follow the instructions to download a case history template; then fill it out, save it to your computer, and upload it into the EC History 8 files section (make a folder, first, with your name on it)

The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise.

Diagnosis is by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH (ACTH is to check for Cushings or PPID; insulin, glucose and leptin are to assess EMS status)

More information here: %20Diet%20Trim/

and here: %20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/

Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.
Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil. One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in.  
 The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed).

More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here: %20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Basic

Trim: This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels. Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle.

Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic. A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin. Obviously, your pony won't be exercising for a while.

There is also a ton of good information on the website.

Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09 ECIR mod/support %20Smithers%20BC/

---In EquineCushings@..., <sarahlbennett@...> wrote :


I have questions regarding the prognosis for my little made.

Following a first ever bout of laminitis my 27 year retired Shetland broodmare has this week been diagnosed with EMS/Cushings. 

89501 - 89520 of 280436