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ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

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Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Lavinia,

....."the trim really needs an overhaul. Toes are much too long (can see the resultant slight dishing in the dorsal walls), soles are thin, heels severely under run, frogs contracted, coffin bones are almost ground parallel..... Any kind of shoes are going to make this very difficult to achieve."....

Thx for info. I dont like the way his feet have been looking but he had a terrible time when barefoot (abscesses, bruising, two severe splints, etc). Granted, his diet & IR was likely uncontrolled but im still wary of barefooting him -- dont get me wrong, Im a huge proponent of living barefoot if at all possible and my mare does very well barefoot by my trimming but she has perfect easy feet (minimum1/2" solid hoof wall). This guy is more like a TB, thin walled, flat-footed -- thats why i put him on the Farrier's Formula. I swear the FF has helped his hoof quality immensely (not to mention that he finally has grown a tail). If the only way to acheive correct hoof health is by barefooting I will do it but this gelding's pathology in conformation & way of going will need someone beyond my skill level. If you have any recommendations for my area (metro NYC) please msg me privately.

Thx so much,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Ps-- i thought coffin bones were *supposed* to be parallel to ground, no? Am i misreading your message?


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kerry,

Thanks for re-doing the case histories - know how much of a PITA that was. Unfortunately, Neo doesn't let you link to the individual folders within a file, only to the file itself:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kerry%20Isherwood%20/

Took a look at his photos - he really is a cutie. Here's the link to the photos:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1512238811

I swear having more than one horse just guarantees that you will have double (or triple) the opportunities for trouble. The universe seems to have a rather perverse sense of humor...

Great that you have a scale available to you - certainly beats using weight tapes or formulas. I'm not seeing a crest but agree he may be slightly heavier than is ideal. That's one benfit of taking pictures - it also takes the subjectivity out of the equation. Glad his insulin has stabilized and the pulses are receding. I agree you have diagnosis under control. Now that you've switched to mostly hay vs ODTB cubes, your mineral balancing is going to need to be re-evaluated as your diet is no longer mineral balanced. Somehow, you need to get more salt into this boy as he needs 2oz minimum just for maintenance. More for his work load. Can try sprinkling it on his wet hay - some seem to accept it more readily that way.

Thanks for the hoof pix and xrays. Unfortunately, the trim really needs an overhaul. Toes are much too long (can see the resultant slight dishing in the dorsal walls), soles are thin, heels severely under run, frogs contracted, coffin bones are almost ground parallel and there appears to be a bit of sinking. The heels look visually "high" but there currently isn't any sole depth to actually lower them because they have run under so much. As long as the toes remain too long, they will continue to pull the frogs and heels forward - conveyor belt style -  and thin the soles. This contributes to the sinking. Getting his heels moved back will require finesse, patience and frequent, minimal backing while religiously keeping the toes backed as the toes are going to want to shoot forward seemingly overnight. Any kind of shoes are going to make this very difficult to achieve.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

hawkhilldeb@...
 

Corrine, I am gob-smacked by your ability to keep trying every suggestion.  I know you are exhausted, but you don't give up and that is so inspirational.  I also hope Jasper improves quickly and you and he get some rest, but please don't apologize for asking questions.  I have learned so much from your terrible journey.  For one thing, Capsaicin.  Don't know how I missed this, but I am trying it on Cory.  Seems to help.  Try to rest.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
ECHistory5

 


Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

corrine haffner
 

Hi

Got his feet taken care of worked pretty good lavinia,the bandages from almost 4 days ago were pretty bad,full of puss and nasty smelling.  So don't know if he popped more abcesses or if the old ones are still draining,unable to look at bottom of his feet. 

Has yet to lay down,doing the fall asleep standing, then knees buckle and he almost goes down,then catches himself before he falls completely. Did talk to vet about diazepam said he can get an RX for jasper,i hate to add yet more stuff to give him every day. Maybe i need to get the diazepam tomorrow so this poor horse can lay down and rest?? he's so tired and sore and very stiff moving even in hindquarters.

Sorry for always posting with yet more issues our never ending saga continues,hopefully it will end soon though.

Thank's
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8


Re: The IR blues...

paulah@...
 


Hi Kerry,
Trust yourself!
I had the same impressions with my highly IR young horse when I started soaking his hay.  It seemed like his whole body was a little swollen when his insulin was high, and reducing the sugar relieved the swelling very quickly.  Cory can't even handle a 7.8% ESC + starch hay, so he is on 6% or soaked hay.  Otherwise, the behavior issues start, the heat starts to creep into his feet, etc.  He gets the balanced hay cubes only as muzzle treats in small amounts.
Glad your boy is feeling better!

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011   


---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

 his skin & body "feel" different when i groom him. Hard to explain. But makes me think the something in his diet was too high in the sense that now that the offender has been removed, he's experiencing a major metabolic shift of some kind.
Thx to everyone, as always,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014
 


CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

I have completed the CH on my IR gelding, Tofurky.  He's the 8yo gelding who's insulin has climbed to 70mg/dL despite being on (what I thought was) a very tight diet.  I need advice on diet as well as trim (hoof pics and rad links supplied).  I believe exercise and diagnosis are good but as always, input is most welcome. 

His body photos are deceiving b/c he has always been very lithe with almost no fat anywhere b/c he is very active all day in his paddock.  The 2-D pics make him appear cresty (his mane is roached, which doesn't help) 

with paunchy fat everywhere.  He is very fit & muscualr but I admit looking objectively at him after doing my CH he does appear to have gained weight this spring (only thing different was the ODTBC) which I was believing to be muscle development (esp in lower, hind abdomen -- don't laugh, its a real belief in dressage circles! :)  I do have to dig a bit to feel ribs now.  Furthermore, my saddle was custom fitted to him last summer does not seem to be fitting as well b/c he is wider.  Ugh, I need to just admit my horse has gotten fat and I didn't see it.  One thing I forgot to add to my CH is that I plan to take Tofurky to a local equine clinic 1-2x/month to weigh on their walk-on scale.  That should cut down on some of the subjectivity of body condition interpretation!


Anyway, all advice is hugely welcome.  At present it appears his insulin has stabilized on the Emergency soaked hay diet as his pulses are now normal again and he's no longer stepping tenderly, but I need help in deciding what to feed him long-term. 


Please note that I had to complete the CH is Word.doc format.  I could not get all of the bloodwork to fit in the ready-to-use template, which was partially completed and then abandoned.  For some reason the orig template still appears on some occasions when the link is used.  I'm not savvy enough to figure out why or how to delete it.  Now hopefully the *&#%@$  link to CH actually works:

https://xa.yimg.com/df/echistory8/TOFURKY+CH+6+15+2015.docx?token=6RYbHQdgP0qfBTeXI2HKwrXZeVjUFMQI_bw1uy9y3oBW0thaqfsjjqosbmTvxbsWRzVOyQ1uWmd9B5tReGq3YC37fvI-MDSXGV3UOK4PKHnYVSxbUoQceys8f4sQCeFJU9uxVFL_oYpT3uE-2J3gL_isxkfTBz_B_-btg_0&type=download


And this is the easier one of my two IR horses!  Geesh!  Thank goodness the mare has been holding steady through all of this!



Kerry in NY

Sept 2014




Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

To change the wraps without him lying down or being able to lift his feet long enough, you could try this:

Probably better if you can get him onto a flat surface first but will work in his bedded stall if needed. Spread a sheet out directly in front of him so when he steps forward it is onto the sheet. Cut the current booties/wraps/diapers up as much as possible off the leg and pull all the ends flat onto the ground then have him step forward onto the clean sheet. Duct tape the underside of the diaper, slather numotizine onto foot side, place on the sheet in front of his foot and have him take a step forward onto the new diaper. Fold up the sides, tape on as best as possible. Repeat for other foot.

At least it enables you to change the dressing.

Healing thought to both of you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


>>>>>>>>>
ECHistory8


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

beverly meyer
 

Thank you so much for the Alcar info!
Beverly


The use of NSAIDs and pain relief.

Nancy C
 

We've been talking a lot about pain relief in recent weeks. Coincidentally this review of current research is also making the rounds on Facebook. 

Phenylbutazone — My Investigation And Questions

 

While this is not an endorsement of the approach to the foot, the overview of the use and impact of NSAIDs is a good one.

Please note as well that much of the reserch compiled in the above article has been discussed here on a regular basis.  In fact, like so many issues surrounding IR and PPID horses, discussion and review first came up in 2002.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/20636

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
Guest Speakers

 




Re: low insulin test

Nancy C
 

Hi Judy and Kerry

The use of Cypro has been followed here since 2000.  Here are a couple of early messages.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/1225
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/484
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/636
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/1226
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/21090

More from Dr Kellon
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/190774
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/179218
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/102367

And info in the files.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=cypro&useSpellingSuggestion=false


In the early years Cypro was recommended to use to bring down insulin.  There is little research to show it works and the majority of members who have used it found it did not. Cypro has most recently been suggested by researchers (without additional research) and the pharmaceutical company funding them, to be used when the recommended dose of 3 mg of Prascend does not work to control PPID.

Judy - a very likely possibility with your current blood work is error through mishandling but we could use a lot more detail.  Was there a glucose taken as well?    Appetite issue with pergolide can be helped iwth the use of adaptogens, ie APF. It is usually transient. Uncontrolled PPID does affect insulin, so having the Cushing's under control is needed.  Might you have a Case History on Star?  Seeing the big picture would be a big help.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  With over 12,000 members and thousands of detailed case histories the ECIR Group has made it possible to spot patterns, many of which have been confirmed later by formal study.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 


Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




He won't lie down because he doesn't feel safe after losing his companion.  Horses rely on herd mates to keep guard when they lie down and are vulnerable.  He's even more anxious because he knows he is incapacitated.  If the goat isn't actually in the stall with him, try that.   Hanging a tarp or blanket across his stall may also help.

You may end up needing to have your veterinarian out to do nerve blocks so that you can attend to the feet.  Also discuss the possibility of changing to a medication with more direct anti-anxiety effects, like diazepam (Valium), which works very well in horses.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

newuser1971@...
 

Hi Pauline :o)

I have just been into the calculator again and I don't know what I did previously but I'm getting a TOTALLY different total (42.30) and one that is definitely not IR. Is 42.30 the same total you get?

Bonnie is still lame. Lavinia and Dr Kellon have both indicated that trim is likely to be causing alot of her issues so I now have an ACEHP qualified trimmer keeping an eye on my trimming. Lavinia has done some mark-ups and given me some feedback which has been very helpful.

The good news is I am finally managing to get a decent amount of Speedibeet into her so she is putting on weight (yay!!) and I think I have found a consistent hay supplier so hoping to have my hay tested shortly to get the mineral side of things sorted out.

Sarah Harris

Mt Mee, Queensland, Australia

Joined: 20 March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bonnie%20and%20Sarah/

ECHistory8

 


Re: Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

takarri@...
 

 

 Hi Sarah,

 

I definitely do not put myself in the expert category. I played around with numbers on the  IR calculator, but came up with a different answer. Can I ask what  you put in as a reference range for your Insulin?   Given that she’s a T’bred it’s less likely that she’s IR, not impossible but less likely.However,  I will always stand to be corrected . Is she showing any obvious symptoms of IR- fat pads, crest, excessive drinking and urinating? I I know that the the symptoms of IR  can be sometimes subtle and cross over with PPID  symptoms. Mostly, it’s important to look at the overall picture & not necessarily focus on the numbers.
How is she doing otherwise?

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote :



Dear experts. I'm still confused by Bonnie's IR results and was wondering if somebody could confirm whether she is or is not IR.
Her lab results were as follows:-
Glucose 4.7 mmol/L
Insulin <2.0 mU/L (2.0 - 30.0)
The IR calculator results are as follows:-
G:I ratio = 2.35
RISQI = 0.71
MIRG = -4.30
IR Status = Normal, not IR
The reason I am confused is because the "G:I ratio" is less than 4.5 which, according to the calculator, means she is severely IR but the "IR Status" says she is "Normal, not IR". I'm so confused!!


 

 


Re: Stormy

Teri
 

Pauline, Jaini and everyone,

>>I agree with Jainis' sentiments. Stormy was definitely a girl with attitude, in the nicest possible way. 

Oh my!  You have no idea!!!  When I was first teaching Stormy to lead, this little teeny baby turned a complete flip at the end of the lead rope!  She nearly gave me a heart attack!  Then when a friend and I were teaching her to lunge!  Look out!   I swear she could run an entire circle without her feet ever touching the ground!  Her 'airs above the ground' were spectacular!!! :-0  Head tossing, mane and tail flying... it was all you could do to hang on to the end of the line!  Of course we were laughing hysterically the whole time, which didn't help!    Until laminitis started slowing her down, she was hell on wheels.  She would have given the Energizer Bunny a serious run for his money. Then there was the ponytude to boot!  And as you all know, she didn't make life with IR/PPID any easier on either one of us. There were many days when I swore she was plotting against my every effort to help her.  There were also many times I was shocked at how 'good' she was.   She had a way of coming through for me when I needed her to, just like she did in the end. 
In spite of all that...or because of all that...we loved her dearly.  And although it's very sad time, I am happy that those sore little feet have been set free once again.  She's truly one of those who was born to run!  

Many thanks to everyone who offered their condolences.   I've read them all several times.  

Nancy, I will most likely continue to check the posts...just not quite as closely as I did before.   I also have a very sweet Haflinger mare, Kelsey who is at the lower/milder (?) end of IR.  Thanks to Stormy and what I learned here...my goal is continue to keep her laminitis free.  So, you won't be completely rid of me!  HA! 

Thanks again to this group for what you have done and continue to do for so many equines and their owners.

Teri and Stormy...sure to be wreaking havoc over the bridge!  Show 'em how it's done, Stormy!!! :-)
Indy 2012


 



 


Re: Understanding Bonnie's insulin results

newuser1971@...
 

Dear experts. I'm still confused by Bonnie's IR results and was wondering if somebody could confirm whether she is or is not IR.

Her lab results were as follows:-

Glucose 4.7 mmol/L
Insulin <2.0 mU/L (2.0 - 30.0)

The IR calculator results are as follows:-

G:I ratio = 2.35
RISQI = 0.71
MIRG = -4.30
IR Status = Normal, not IR

The reason I am confused is because the "G:I ratio" is less than 4.5 which, according to the calculator, means she is severely IR but the "IR Status" says she is "Normal, not IR". I'm so confused!!

Sarah Harris

Mt Mee, Queensland, Australia

Joined: 20 March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bonnie%20and%20Sarah/

ECHistory8

 

 


Re: low insulin test

tootsie2toes2
 

Thank you Kerry.  Star's insulin blood draw for test was taken 5/15/15.  It was handled by Clinilab in Valparaiso IN.  Report date is 5/16/15.  Units are uIU/mL, CPS 260,443, equine range 10-30, result 6.18.  I feed Triple Crown Senior.  She does eat some hay.  She was put on Pegolide first but it affected her appetite a lot.  I've had 3 horses on pergolide or cypro and it has always lowered insulin, so I'm surprised you've never heard of them for IR.  My first one was in 2003.  His insulin was over 300 and he was too heavy at that time.  On cypro, his insulin came down to normal and he lost a lot of weight which made him a normal weight.

So I wonder if it's OK to give less than 100 mg a day.  I was thinking of every day and a half.

Thanks again,
Judy Beumer


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hi Dr. Kellon,
I'm so interested in your reply that ALCAR has no impact on fat metabolism. .........

I didn't say ALCar has no impact on fat metabolism. I said it doesn't mobilize fat or cause it to be excreted into the manure.  It doesn't do either of those things.
= = = = = = = = = =

Could it be different for horses than other animals and humans?  Or maybe the acetylated form acts differently then L-Carnitine?
I've used Acetyl-L-Carnitine for decades with Insulin Resistant clients and athletes in large part for its effects on fat metabolism, transporting fats into the cell to be burned for fuel. ..........

Neither ALCar nor L-carnitine transport fats into the cells.  L-carnitine is the carrier for long chain fatty acids derived from triglycerides to be carried into the mitochondria.
= = = = = = = = =

 It utilizes Pantothenic Acid (B5) as part of Acetyl-CoA which is why earlier I mentioned B5 and fat metaboof fat................

ALCar and L-carnitine have nothing to do with B5 either.  B5 is needed to synthesize Coenzyme-A but is not part of CoA and CoA synthesis has nothing to do with ALCar or L-carnitine.
= = = = = = = = =
This is  the process:

Fatty acids are cleaved from the glycerol backbone of triglycerides.  They are picked up by specific transporters on the cell surface and carried to the interior of the cell.  To be burned, they must cross the membrane of the mitochondria inside the cell.  For long chain fatty acids, this requires an L-carnitine as a carrier.  The fatty acid and L-carnitine combine to produce an acylcarnitine which can cross the mitochondrial membrane.

Once inside the mitochondria, the long chain fatty acid is serially broken down to acetyl groups.  The acetyl groups can combine with CoA to be burned for energy or bind to the free L-carnitine to produce acetyl-L-carnitine which is transported out of the mitochondria and back into the body of the cell.

One of the effects of acetyl-L-carnitine is to activate the AMPK enzyme complex which encourages the burning of glucose as a fuel.  This in turn increases the demand for glucose and the uptake of glucose by the cell, a favorable effect for IR. 

http://www.febsletters.org/article/S0014-5793%2808%2901041-7/abstract

Activation of AMP kinase enhances sensitivity of muscle glucose transport to insulin | Endocrinology and Metabolism

 



ALCar can also be converted to L-carnitine, further enabling entry of long chain fats into the mitochondria.  ALCar and L-carnitine are also known to have long term effects of encouraging increased production of mitochondria in the cells, which improves the capacity for fat burning and improves the efficiency of glucose burning.  In summary, processes for burning glucose and fat as fuel are enhanced, decreasing the accumulation of fat as weight gain.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
 


Re: The IR blues...

Kerry Isherwood
 

Thanks everybody! Mercifully his pulses are much better tonight, almost normal. He's doing the same thing my mare did when on the Emergency diet--it appears the weight is dramatically & very rapidly melting off of him. He looks 50# lighter in only 24 hrs and his skin & body "feel" different when i groom him. Hard to explain. But makes me think the something in his diet was too high in the sense that now that the offender has been removed, he's experiencing a major metabolic shift of some kind. Something has triggered his body to rapidly transform itself. Maybe Im just crazy from lack of sleep....but to have two horses do this...idk, food for thought. But after some very needed sleep

Thx to everyone, as always,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: The IR blues...

paulah@...
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

Crap.  I get one IR stabillized and the other falls apart.  I have no idea why, but now my 8yo gelding's insulin is 70uU/mL, the highest its ever been.  I just dont understand....


Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Hi Kerry,
I know exactly how you feel... I focus on one, start to feel smug and the other one starts to slip...
Hang in there, you are doing great and you will get it under control.
Regardless of what's driving the high insulin, soaking hay for an hour in cold water would be the first thing I would do.  The ODBT cubes are under 10%, but may be too high for your boy, with whatever is going on at the moment.  You know his out of control symptoms, so you'll be able to tell when he starts feeling better, calmer and more like himself.
Great that you are venting your frustration on the grass.  If he can reach it at all and you've been getting the strange weather we have, it may be adding to his misery.  After you scalp it, you may find it helpful to treat it with the vinegar, salt and soap solution, known at my farm as  "Dawn vinaigrette" (1 gal vinegar, 1c salt and a squirt of dish soap).
Good luck and post what you figure out.  It really helps to learn from each other.
Best regards,

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011  

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Paula_Cory/

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/275503778

ECHistory8      

 


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