Date   

Re: Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

 

Hi Corrine.  I'm so glad poor Jasper is getting some rest - and you as well.  I've read all of your posts, shaking my head at what you've been through and I have to say, you are one tough, dedicated horse girl.  Your Jasper is lucky to have you.  

I'm so sorry you lost your Chardonnay at this time, hugs to you & Jasper both.  

Jill in Idaho
Member since 2010




How long to get lab results

 

Am I being unreasonably impatient or is a month a long time to wait for lab results from Cornell?  This is the first lab work I've had done  - we sent glucose, insulin, leptin and ACTH on May 19th.  I called the vet on June 2nd and he said results should be back "next week".  Which is now last week and still nothing.  Vet hasn't returned my message from this morning yet...do you think something got lost?


Jill in Idaho

Member since 2010


Re: Moldy Hay?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




That brown discoloration comes from heating while curing. The bales had too much moisture when put up.  It can also mean mold but not necessarily.  The best way to check for this is to open the bales and check for "dust".

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Hoof help, please

 

Lavinia, are there any changes I should be making to his feet right now? Today is 2 weeks since the trim that sent him into discomfort, and, as of yesterday, he appears comfortable again, even without pads taped to his feet. I don't have experience reading x-rays, so don't know the whole of what I'm dealing with. I'm getting ready to be out of town and want to be sure I take care of anything that he needs before I leave. Thank you!

Fran and Ford in Texas
2005


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ford%20Case%20History/


ECHistory8

 


Re: Moldy Hay?

corrine haffner
 

Hi sally

Your picture of the bale that's brown looking seems to be just discolored i don't see mold. If it was moldy it would smell musty and would be white/ black looking. No never feed hay that has mold or smells musty,better to just throw it out.

I put a picture of what mold looks like on a bale,i feed big rounds so some have bad spots,i don't ever give this part of the hay to my horses. http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710

Hope this helps you.
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014

 

 


Moldy Hay?

Larks Tabatha
 

Hello... I just posted a photo showing two bales of hay in my barn.  I am wondering if the bale on the right is showing evidence of mold because the the hay on the top of the bale is brown when compared to the other hay in this same load.  This bale came from deep within my stack, and was not exposed to the elements after it was delivered to my barn.  Please let me know if my link to the photo does not post correctly so I can learn how to do it so it will.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHorsekeeping/photos/photostream/lightbox/1786337516?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/1786337516


If I am not picking up a moldy scent to the brown bale, how might I tell if it is moldy and do not want to feed it to my horse and donkey?


Thank you! 

Sally in N. AZ

April 2013


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

Lavinia,

Totally agreed re: boots/booting.  That's why I was thinking some type of glue-on, that could be removed every week or 10 days to work on trim.  I am not daunted by the process or time or costs involved but only in feasibility of doing so & best product to use. 

But I guess where there's a will, there's a way!

Thanks so much for your help,

Kerry


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kerry,

Boots and pads are great during transition periods and when the living situation doesn't match the riding conditions. Unfortunately, most of the good riding-type boots are designed to be used with hooves that have good hoof form: backed toes, low and aligned heels, proper hoof capsule height. They don't allow for pathology without rubbing. Makes it difficult as the horses who need the boots the most - the ones with flares/long toes/under run heels/under developed digital cushions) - are the ones the boots won't fit well. The boots that don't conform as closely to the hoof so there is leeway in the fit (Soft Rides, Easyboot Rx) aren't designed to be used for exercise/riding.

Makes for a Catch-22 situation for sure.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hi Kerry,

Can totally understand him having difficulty when barefoot as his hooves are quite mechanically stressed (appear to have been for quite some time) and you mentioned in his case history that they are a bit improved from what they were. The form issues, coupled with the unknown IR and probable laminitis, resulted in the sinking and thinning of the soles. Thin soles and stretched laminar connections will predispose his feet to bruising and abscess formation. Medial-lateral imbalances can cause splints, esp if there are conformational issues that are already contributing to stress on the legs.

Although thin walls and flat feet can have a genetic component, the biggest influences are environmental: dietary imbalances, trim deficiencies, inadequate exercise. FF contains several of the most common "missing elements" in the equine diet: copper, zinc, methionine, lysine so it will generally be helpful if your diet hasn't already been mineral balanced. Using the ODTBC may have actually been the greater contributor to the hoof quality because by making it a major portion of his diet you automatically addressed the excesses/deficiencies in the key nutrients for sustaining good hoof growth. Hooves, manes and tails require many of the same key nutrients for healthy growth.

Ground parallel coffin bones when at rest leave you no place to go but into negative plane upon impact. This leads to over-extension of the tendons and ligaments on a regular basis. Generally, the latest accepted parameters advise a 3*-5* angle at rest to provide a "place to go" during movement.

Composite shoes can be a lifesaver in some cases but cannot be used in place of a physiologically correct trim. Gotta get the trim correct first then look to an appropriate appliance, if needed, to finish the job. Otherwise, the appliances just magnify the problem and interfere with your ability to make timely trim interventions.

Will message you privately with a couple of possible contacts in your area.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hey Tara & everyone helping,

I totally get the barefoot philosophy and utilize it successfully with my mare who events & hunter paces barefoot (yes, agreed, WAAY better traction barefoot than any shoe or studding could ever give, esp wet grass!) My concern w Tofurky is his crooked front legs that predipose him to travelling heavily onto his medial walls -- he has two enormous matching splints to show for it. Im very willing to pull shoes and handle the frequent & necessary trimming myself to get the hooves to a healthy form (under supervision) -- that Im not opposed to at all. I have Renegades that fit him & Im comfortable using them for riding. What Im concerned abt is the other 23 hrs a day he's not in boots, that he will excessively load the medial walls and revert to the deformities of before which lead to the horrendous splints. So Im thinking i need a band-aid "support" structure of some kind to get him through the immed transition when shoes are first pulled -- as in glue-ons of some kind that can be removed frequently, hooves trimmed, and reapplied. I dont think i can keep him booted, which, yes, would be ideal. Perhaps im just a boot novice and dont know enough of what could stay on 24/7 for the initial transition -- ive used Easyboots w gaiters and the Renegades. Both of these have given rubs within 24 hrs when ive used them on Tofurky for a thrown shoe. Thats what has led me to thinking of some kind of glue-on strategy. I need advice on this matter.

If necessary please move this convo to the Hoof forum, although I still definitely need help with Tofurky's diet plan.

And of course, now my IR/PPID mare's BG this morning was 135mg/dL (AlphaTrak2 vet glucometer) when I drew blood to send with Tofurky's for KSU's iron panel. I was waiting til 6/21 (the equinox, just an arbitrarily chosen date that I could easily remember) to start increasing her pergolide but looks like her calendar is ahead of mine. Guess its time to update her CH!

Thanks everybody,
Kerry in NY


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

tara sullivan
 

Hi Kerry....COME ON GIRL!  Liberate yourself and do your horse a huge favor....pull those shoes!  I know you really are a proponent of barefoot..... when possible....But you don't think that for Tofurky it is possible.  It IS!  Invest in a good pair of boots.  I like Renegades....bought a pair 8 yrs ago for my TB mare...paid $160 and she will have them whenever she needs them for the rest of her life....for the price of 1 shoeing.  The only time she wears them is when  we trail ride on hard rocky terrain....she lives on grass and dirt so her feet don't get tough enough to handle those conditions.  The good thing about barefoot is that the foot will respond to conditioning.  My TB gelding has never had shoes...we event (we have way more grip on grass than any shod horse), trail ride everywhere and do lots of road work.  We do a conditioning hack sometimes 2x/week that is about a 3.5 mile loop-2 miles of it is pavement with significant hills....we trot the whole thing....and he still needs a trim every 4-5 weeks!
And the benefits of barefoot go all the way up the legs....his tendons, ligaments, navicular bone, etc. will thank you!....with less stress and injury.
Tara from NY


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Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Lavinia,

....."the trim really needs an overhaul. Toes are much too long (can see the resultant slight dishing in the dorsal walls), soles are thin, heels severely under run, frogs contracted, coffin bones are almost ground parallel..... Any kind of shoes are going to make this very difficult to achieve."....

Thx for info. I dont like the way his feet have been looking but he had a terrible time when barefoot (abscesses, bruising, two severe splints, etc). Granted, his diet & IR was likely uncontrolled but im still wary of barefooting him -- dont get me wrong, Im a huge proponent of living barefoot if at all possible and my mare does very well barefoot by my trimming but she has perfect easy feet (minimum1/2" solid hoof wall). This guy is more like a TB, thin walled, flat-footed -- thats why i put him on the Farrier's Formula. I swear the FF has helped his hoof quality immensely (not to mention that he finally has grown a tail). If the only way to acheive correct hoof health is by barefooting I will do it but this gelding's pathology in conformation & way of going will need someone beyond my skill level. If you have any recommendations for my area (metro NYC) please msg me privately.

Thx so much,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Ps-- i thought coffin bones were *supposed* to be parallel to ground, no? Am i misreading your message?


Re: CH completed, please peruse & advise

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kerry,

Thanks for re-doing the case histories - know how much of a PITA that was. Unfortunately, Neo doesn't let you link to the individual folders within a file, only to the file itself:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kerry%20Isherwood%20/

Took a look at his photos - he really is a cutie. Here's the link to the photos:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1512238811

I swear having more than one horse just guarantees that you will have double (or triple) the opportunities for trouble. The universe seems to have a rather perverse sense of humor...

Great that you have a scale available to you - certainly beats using weight tapes or formulas. I'm not seeing a crest but agree he may be slightly heavier than is ideal. That's one benfit of taking pictures - it also takes the subjectivity out of the equation. Glad his insulin has stabilized and the pulses are receding. I agree you have diagnosis under control. Now that you've switched to mostly hay vs ODTB cubes, your mineral balancing is going to need to be re-evaluated as your diet is no longer mineral balanced. Somehow, you need to get more salt into this boy as he needs 2oz minimum just for maintenance. More for his work load. Can try sprinkling it on his wet hay - some seem to accept it more readily that way.

Thanks for the hoof pix and xrays. Unfortunately, the trim really needs an overhaul. Toes are much too long (can see the resultant slight dishing in the dorsal walls), soles are thin, heels severely under run, frogs contracted, coffin bones are almost ground parallel and there appears to be a bit of sinking. The heels look visually "high" but there currently isn't any sole depth to actually lower them because they have run under so much. As long as the toes remain too long, they will continue to pull the frogs and heels forward - conveyor belt style -  and thin the soles. This contributes to the sinking. Getting his heels moved back will require finesse, patience and frequent, minimal backing while religiously keeping the toes backed as the toes are going to want to shoot forward seemingly overnight. Any kind of shoes are going to make this very difficult to achieve.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

hawkhilldeb@...
 

Corrine, I am gob-smacked by your ability to keep trying every suggestion.  I know you are exhausted, but you don't give up and that is so inspirational.  I also hope Jasper improves quickly and you and he get some rest, but please don't apologize for asking questions.  I have learned so much from your terrible journey.  For one thing, Capsaicin.  Don't know how I missed this, but I am trying it on Cory.  Seems to help.  Try to rest.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
ECHistory5

 


Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

corrine haffner
 

Hi

Got his feet taken care of worked pretty good lavinia,the bandages from almost 4 days ago were pretty bad,full of puss and nasty smelling.  So don't know if he popped more abcesses or if the old ones are still draining,unable to look at bottom of his feet. 

Has yet to lay down,doing the fall asleep standing, then knees buckle and he almost goes down,then catches himself before he falls completely. Did talk to vet about diazepam said he can get an RX for jasper,i hate to add yet more stuff to give him every day. Maybe i need to get the diazepam tomorrow so this poor horse can lay down and rest?? he's so tired and sore and very stiff moving even in hindquarters.

Sorry for always posting with yet more issues our never ending saga continues,hopefully it will end soon though.

Thank's
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8


Re: The IR blues...

paulah@...
 


Hi Kerry,
Trust yourself!
I had the same impressions with my highly IR young horse when I started soaking his hay.  It seemed like his whole body was a little swollen when his insulin was high, and reducing the sugar relieved the swelling very quickly.  Cory can't even handle a 7.8% ESC + starch hay, so he is on 6% or soaked hay.  Otherwise, the behavior issues start, the heat starts to creep into his feet, etc.  He gets the balanced hay cubes only as muzzle treats in small amounts.
Glad your boy is feeling better!

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011   


---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

 his skin & body "feel" different when i groom him. Hard to explain. But makes me think the something in his diet was too high in the sense that now that the offender has been removed, he's experiencing a major metabolic shift of some kind.
Thx to everyone, as always,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014
 


CH completed, please peruse & advise

Kerry Isherwood
 

I have completed the CH on my IR gelding, Tofurky.  He's the 8yo gelding who's insulin has climbed to 70mg/dL despite being on (what I thought was) a very tight diet.  I need advice on diet as well as trim (hoof pics and rad links supplied).  I believe exercise and diagnosis are good but as always, input is most welcome. 

His body photos are deceiving b/c he has always been very lithe with almost no fat anywhere b/c he is very active all day in his paddock.  The 2-D pics make him appear cresty (his mane is roached, which doesn't help) 

with paunchy fat everywhere.  He is very fit & muscualr but I admit looking objectively at him after doing my CH he does appear to have gained weight this spring (only thing different was the ODTBC) which I was believing to be muscle development (esp in lower, hind abdomen -- don't laugh, its a real belief in dressage circles! :)  I do have to dig a bit to feel ribs now.  Furthermore, my saddle was custom fitted to him last summer does not seem to be fitting as well b/c he is wider.  Ugh, I need to just admit my horse has gotten fat and I didn't see it.  One thing I forgot to add to my CH is that I plan to take Tofurky to a local equine clinic 1-2x/month to weigh on their walk-on scale.  That should cut down on some of the subjectivity of body condition interpretation!


Anyway, all advice is hugely welcome.  At present it appears his insulin has stabilized on the Emergency soaked hay diet as his pulses are now normal again and he's no longer stepping tenderly, but I need help in deciding what to feed him long-term. 


Please note that I had to complete the CH is Word.doc format.  I could not get all of the bloodwork to fit in the ready-to-use template, which was partially completed and then abandoned.  For some reason the orig template still appears on some occasions when the link is used.  I'm not savvy enough to figure out why or how to delete it.  Now hopefully the *&#%@$  link to CH actually works:

https://xa.yimg.com/df/echistory8/TOFURKY+CH+6+15+2015.docx?token=6RYbHQdgP0qfBTeXI2HKwrXZeVjUFMQI_bw1uy9y3oBW0thaqfsjjqosbmTvxbsWRzVOyQ1uWmd9B5tReGq3YC37fvI-MDSXGV3UOK4PKHnYVSxbUoQceys8f4sQCeFJU9uxVFL_oYpT3uE-2J3gL_isxkfTBz_B_-btg_0&type=download


And this is the easier one of my two IR horses!  Geesh!  Thank goodness the mare has been holding steady through all of this!



Kerry in NY

Sept 2014




Re: Now: colick Trouble Jasper's Journal of Pulse & lameness last 10 days.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

To change the wraps without him lying down or being able to lift his feet long enough, you could try this:

Probably better if you can get him onto a flat surface first but will work in his bedded stall if needed. Spread a sheet out directly in front of him so when he steps forward it is onto the sheet. Cut the current booties/wraps/diapers up as much as possible off the leg and pull all the ends flat onto the ground then have him step forward onto the clean sheet. Duct tape the underside of the diaper, slather numotizine onto foot side, place on the sheet in front of his foot and have him take a step forward onto the new diaper. Fold up the sides, tape on as best as possible. Repeat for other foot.

At least it enables you to change the dressing.

Healing thought to both of you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


>>>>>>>>>
ECHistory8


Re: poor fat digestion and shiny manure

beverly meyer
 

Thank you so much for the Alcar info!
Beverly

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