Date   

Re: Help interpreting iron panel

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 




---In EquineCushings@..., <jan.engelken@...> wrote :

But serum ferritin is increased by other factors, too.

For example inflammation
= = = = = = = = =

That's true, but when inflammation is the cause there will be low serum iron and low transferrin saturation (serum iron/TIBC x 100) and it was high normal here.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Help interpreting iron panel

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Lars,

Thank you very much for reply. A couple more questions, if I may:

....."Secondly, the iron content in the current diet will only be reflected in serum iron which is pretty low for Tofurky (170 ug/dL)." ....

then i should consider the diet at time of blood draw "ok" in terms of iron intake, which is reflected in serum iron on bloodwork, if Im understanding correctly?
Said another way, serum iron is a snapshot of daily iron intake (roughly) while ferritin reflects the lifetime accumulation in body stores? Is that (painfully) correct?

......"The value to worry about is for ferritin (340 ng/mL) which is a measurement of stored iron in the body. This iron have probably been built up in the body (mostly liver and spleen) during many, many years."....

Aside from blood-letting, as Dr Kellon mentioned, how does one "get rid" of excess ferritin? Ive read that sweating will leach tiny amts of it but its miniscule (however, my gelding does sweat ALOT, so there's hope ;) Will having a tight mineral balance on diet actually reduce ferritin stores, or will it simply just not add to the already high amount?

Thanks again
Kerry in NY
Sept 14


Re: Help interpreting iron panel

Jan Engelken
 

But serum ferritin is increased by other factors, too.

For example inflammation:

Serum ferritin iron, a new test, measures human body iron stores unconfounded by inflammation.

 

The fascinating but deceptive ferritin: to measure it or not to measure it in chronic kidney disease?

 

Jan
Germany, 2010


Re: slow feeder for pellets?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Lj,

I don't have experience with the electric pellet dispenser, but have you tried the Nose it Ball for Jesse as was previously suggested?


Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Re: Help interpreting iron panel

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

Unfortunately, the blood sample was drawn while Tofurky was eating unsoaked hay (25% of hay diet) and ODTBC (75% of hay diet).  The analysis on the long-stem hay yielded an iron level of 111ppm (50 mg/lb) as sampled;

- - - - -
This isn’t an issue. First of all it takes time before the horse can absorb any iron from the foodstufs he is eating (a couple of hours before iron can be absorbed in the small intestine and several hours before iron can be absorbed in the large intestine). Secondly, the iron content in the current diet will only be reflected in serum iron which is pretty low for Tofurky (170 ug/dL). 

The value to worry about is for ferritin (340 ng/mL) which is a measurement of stored iron in the body. This iron have probably been built up in the body (mostly liver and spleen) during many, many years.

- - - - - -

Anyone know if other factors influence ferritin in blood levels (stress, weather, etc)?  I really have got to take the NRC course...

- - - - -
The only way iron can get into the body is through the diet (including water and dirt). Stress and weather doesn’t increase body iron stores.

Lars
Sweden, July 2008


Re: Need link to IR calculator again....

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <ndeewoods@...> wrote :

If your insulin is reported in pmol/L you have to convert it to uIU/mL by dividing by 7.1.

- - - - - -

Regarding the conversion factor for insulin there seems to be a disagreement. The American Diabetes Association recommends the conversion factor 6.0 while the American Medical Association recommends the conversion factor 6.945.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/33/6/e83.full

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/dme.12337/abstract

Lars
Sweden July 2008


Re: Need link to IR calculator again....

lars_a_swe
 

---In EquineCushings@..., <ndeewoods@...> wrote :

But...my numbers  on Bren are Insulin 62.8 pU/mL and Glucose 87 mg/dl 
and for Shasta  Insulin 9.1 pU/mL and Glucose 83 mg/dL  

- - - - - -

Your insulin numbers can’t be correct. p stands for pico and means 10-12. To convert pU/mL to µIU/mL (or mIU/L) you’ll have to multiply by 10-6, i.e. I = 62.8 x 10-6 µIU/mL which is an unrealistic low number for insulin.

My guess is that your insulin numbers are in µIU/mL and not in pU/mL.
 
Lars
Sweden July 2008


slow feeder for pellets?

lj friedman
 

I read about the portagrazer and how it can be used for pellets as well as hay.. Then, I saw what looked like an electric pellet dispenser? time released?  anyone know if either of these is good for pellets. Jesse.eats 4 qts of mtn sunrise timothy pellets 3 x a day, dumped into a feeder bin on the ground.. and he eats them quickly.. might a slow feed option be a good idea for a horse that eats pellets?  anyone using portagrazer? 


lj friedman san diego nov 2014


Apple cider vinegar, hydroponic fodder, and sage questions

S Kauffmann
 

Hi folks,

Tried searching the conversations here for some info, but didn't really get anywhere, so I'm going to ask a few questions.

1. Does apple cider vinegar do anything for IR horses, and if so, how much daily should we give? I'm thinking of trying some myself, as I just did some blood tests and my fasting glucose was just barely in the normal range. Kind of a wake-up call!  So, just thought that maybe if it is good for people, it might be good for my IR boy.

2. Is there any kind of seed that can be grown safely as hydroponic fodder for IR horses? Has anyone grown and tested any?

3. We have no grass around here but we do have a lot of sage. My horses sometimes eat it (so do the wild horses around here) -- do we know if there are any issues for IR horses eating sage? My guys sometimes get loose manure if they chow too much of it, but I haven't noticed any other ill effects.

Lastly, I hope it is okay if I invite anyone who might be interested to take a look at a project I am doing to help establish an enormous sanctuary for the wild horses of the Virginia Range, who may be the last intact population of mustangs left in the country.  I have created a series of photo-based posters (also available in t-shirts), with 100% of all profits going to the sanctuary foundation.  You can take a look here: WildOnesMustangs.blogspot.com if you would like to see the images.

Thank you!

Susan K
(now near Reno, NV)
Member since something like 2003



Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

 

You want to add ESC + starch. Best to get a copy of the analysis and post it to see what was done, if possible.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Missouri - Dec 2005


Re: Help interpreting iron panel

Kerry Isherwood
 

Cass,

Thanks so much for the info abt soaked hay.  Very interesting.  Unfortunately, the blood sample was drawn while Tofurky was eating unsoaked hay (25% of hay diet) and ODTBC (75% of hay diet).  The analysis on the long-stem hay yielded an iron level of 111ppm (50 mg/lb) as sampled;  122 ppm (56 mg/dL) dry matter.  Assuming there is minimal iron in OCTBC, then the only other sources of iron would have been:

Seroquine pellets (2 scoops)
Farrier's Formula (1/2 cup, adult maintenance, orig formula)
Pro-lyte electrolyte (1 scoop)
ALCAR (10g)
alfalfa pellets (Standlee) ~3lbs
water

I cannot think of any other ingested foodstuffs that he was receiving (no grass, no treats, etc).  Anyone know if other factors influence ferritin in blood levels (stress, weather, etc)?  I really have got to take the NRC course...

Thanks,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jasper got out on pasture today.

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Yes i saw the info in the files,i don't have some of the the stuff,he's on remission 1 scoop in am and 1 scoop in pm. So not sure if i should add more remission to his diet or not??


Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8





Re: steaming hay

Robyn Tucker <VenturesV@...>
 

Hi all, for all those who may be interested in the Porta Grazer (PG), I have 6. Love them!! And so do my horses. They will eat out of the pg even when loose hay is available. 
The pan has holes in the top to access and pull the hay through.

The pgs are Great in winter and summer. The pan insert and plastic can can get hot though in high temps above 80/85, but putting them under a tree or in a run in or other barn, will take care of that. Simply fold a flake in an inverted V and put the pan in and you are all set. The horses learn to tip them over to loosen the hay as it gets packed down. They like to roll them too!!!
We take the pgs with to endurance rides and camping trips.
Totally worth the money.
Robyn and Toons, San Francisco 2015


Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 19, 2015, at 4:00 PM, bettina@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Beth,


I spoke with someone from HayGain two years ago and was told it does not reduce s/s.  I was tired of soaking hay (especially in the winter) and was looking for a better and easier way.

I stumbled across the "porta-grazer" just last week.  It's a kind of drum with an insert to allow for natural grazing (from the ground).  I don't have to soak right now but was getting tired of being covered in hay twice a day from filling the freedom feeder nets for my horse.  When I checked their online catalog I saw a soaker option.  Google the website and take a look.  It may work for you.  I ordered one of those "porta grazers" and will try it out, not for soaking but for feeding grass hay.  It's on the way and I'm curious to see how it works.

Hopefully, I haven't wasted my money - they're pretty expensive.  Maybe someo ne else has had one before and can tell us if it works.  Anything to make life easier :)

Tina & Rio (on 32mg pergolide again but feeling well and being ridden barefoot)
Atlanta, 2011

Not sure where my CH is anymore...


Re: Jasper got out on pasture today.

newuser1971@...
 

There's some info in the files (link below); don't know if you've seen it?

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

Sarah Harris

Mt Mee, Queensland, Australia

Joined: 20 March 2015


Jasper got out on pasture today.

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


Corral gate didn't get the chain with clip put on it and mr nimble lips let himself out today. Was out for at least an hour and half,before i noticed. Even at a lameness score of 3 1/2 guess he couldn't resist the nice green grass. 


His diet isn't the tightest as far as hay goes,current hay was tested for sugar/starch,but was the WSC+ Starch. So needs to be re tested,hay guy had it tested not me. Was 22 percent.


Been icing his feet what else can i do besides that??


Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8





Re: steaming hay

Lorna Cane
 



>Not sure where my CH is anymore...





  Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup






Re: steaming hay

Tina Martin
 

Beth,

I spoke with someone from HayGain two years ago and was told it does not reduce s/s.  I was tired of soaking hay (especially in the winter) and was looking for a better and easier way.

I stumbled across the "porta-grazer" just last week.  It's a kind of drum with an insert to allow for natural grazing (from the ground).  I don't have to soak right now but was getting tired of being covered in hay twice a day from filling the freedom feeder nets for my horse.  When I checked their online catalog I saw a soaker option.  Google the website and take a look.  It may work for you.  I ordered one of those "porta grazers" and will try it out, not for soaking but for feeding grass hay.  It's on the way and I'm curious to see how it works.

Hopefully, I haven't wasted my money - they're pretty expensive.  Maybe someone else has had one before and can tell us if it works.  Anything to make life easier :)

Tina & Rio (on 32mg pergolide again but feeling well and being ridden barefoot)
Atlanta, 2011

Not sure where my CH is anymore...


Re: Help interpreting iron panel

 

Hi, Kerry.

Here's a heads up on a question you didn't ask. Soaked hay can be a major source of iron in the diet if the horse eats a lot of hay.

My analyzed soaked hay almost always has higher Fe than the same hay dry. This is not caused by iron content in the water. Consistent advice is to rinse hay before soaking. IME rinsing hasn't reduced Fe if rinsing is followed by soaking. Soaking without rinsing always results in much higher Fe in soaked hay, based on 4 different loads of hay out here in the west. 

IME, feeding dry hay or just rinsing is the best way to avoid increasing iron in hay. Load 5 is being analyzed now. YMMV. We're in a terrible drought, and hay has been gritty for two years now.

Obviously rinsing doesn't address concerns about high ESC + starch in untested hay.

Cass for Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :

aside from the long stem hay, is there anything else in Tofurky's diet that should be decreased or removed that would contribute to iron overloading (again, aside from the unknown hay at this point, which of course may change things).  His current diet is:
***


Re: steaming hay

Donna Coughlin
 

Somewhere in the files is a "report" I did on steaming vs. soaking, especially how it affected s/s. I think it was Nancy who said there's not much change in major minerals, and that was also true.

The short answer is that despite the fact that the HayGain steamer people claim the steamer will lower s/s, it honestly doesn't, except by a few tenths of a percent. I did lots of research online, and found very little actual "scientific" evidence, since most people were not actually testing ESC and starch. I used Equi-Analytical for my little test.

I do have a steamer, and it's great for COPD, but for one awful year, I was both steaming and soaking.....I assume you've tested and your hay is over 10% s/s? The steamer is also a bit of a pain, as well, but at least in the winter I wasn't trying to find a place to dump all that water--no perfect solution.

So sorry not to have a better answer!

Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin and Obi
CT 2009



Re: Anything on the newest fructane/sugar news in the files?

Nancy C
 

For all members reading -

Please check the 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceeding by Dr Kellon on Endothelin-1 for more info in to what may be happening during endocrinopathic laminitis.

The role of Fructan will be a topic of discussions, along with many areas so important to the welfare of the horses in our care, at the 2015 NO Lamininitis! Conference in Georgetown TX, November 6-8.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003


To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available. http://nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers

2015 Conference Schedule

 









---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :




There is no research linking grass fructan to laminitis.  Naturally occurring pasture laminitis has never been connected to high fructan and grass fructan (levan) has never been given to horses and caused laminitis.

Pollitt's research used inulin, chickory root fructan, a much more rapidly fermented form.

Below is a blog I just wrote that will appear Monday on Word Press.

Despite the fact there is absolutely no proof that the level of grass fructan (levan) found in horse pastures and hays has ever caused laminitis, fructan continues to be touted as the cause of pasture laminitis.  Any mention of fructan is steadily disappearing from the scientific literature but it continues to appear regularly in other locations, including the web pages and newsletters of companies selling supplements that claim to control alleged hind gut acidosis caused by fructans.


No Evidence that Pasture Fructan Levels are Dangerous

It's true that artificially loading a horse with the chickory root fructan inulin by giving over 8 pounds of pure inulin by stomach tube (500 kg horse) can cause hind gut upset that mimics overeating grain and can cause laminitis.  However, let's look at some facts.

The fructan found in grasses is primarily levan, which is fermented in the hind gut at a much slower rate than inulin.

No one has produced laminitis in horses by tubing them with levan.  No one has proven than pasture grasses can cause the same damage to the hind gut, toxemia and laminitis that tubing with inulin can.

Laminitis caused by inulin is a dose dependent effect.  The lowest dose of inulin by stomach tube that has been shown to produce laminitis is 7.5 g/kg of body weight, or 3750 grams for a 500 kg horse.  A 500 kg horse on pasture will consume about 10 kg of dry matter (grass with the water removed) a day.  To take in that much fructan (levan in the case of grass), the grass would have to be 37.5% fructan.  Perennial ryegrass improved varieties growing under extreme conditions in areas if the world that are cool and rainy might have the potential to reach that level, at least transiently, but no grass in North America comes even close.

In addition to the grasses not having a high enough level of fructan to meet the amount in the experimental model, it's important to remember that experimentally the fructan was dumped into the horses all at once in pure form while when grazing we are talking about total intake over a 24 hour period with a lot of dilution by fiber, protein, water, etc. and a type of fructan that is fermented much slower.

Another very misleading claim that frightens people is that fructan is a sugar and therefore a threat to horses with insulin resistance/metabolic syndrome.  Fructan is NOT a sugar.  It is a long chain polysaccharide made of repeating units (10 or more, often many more) of the sugar fructose but that does not make it a sugar.  Cellulose, the long chain polysaccharide fiber that is high in wood and straw, is made of repeating units of glucose but that doesn't make cellulose a sugar either.

The only sugars that are of concern for an IR horse are those that can be digested and cause an insulin spike.  This is limited to the short chain, one or two sugar unit, sugars such a glucose and sucrose.  Fructan is not digested or otherwise broken down into simple sugar.

The next time you hear or read about fructan being the cause of pasture laminitis, please remember that was a theory that has never been proven.  The real reason that ponies and horses with IR/EMS are prone to pasture laminitis is the simple sugar and starch levels in the grass.

Eleanor Kellon,VMD


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



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