Date   

Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

I'v pretty much decided to not give this lyme vaccine to either horse just sounds, to risky on 2 horses who'v both been sick with lymes. Jasper still being on doxy for the lyme dease.

I know not to vaccinate a sick horse. Don't understand why the local vets are pushing this vaccine,vet that was out for boarded horse knows good and well both my horses have been sick with lyme dease. 

Glad i came on here to ask for advice about this vaccine,results from giving it to both horses could of been less the good.

Thank you so much Kerry & lavinia

Corrine & jasper
MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Thanks for giving us an update. Glad that things seem to be moving in a better direction for Princess. Will be on the lookout for the latest xrays. Were any done after all the trimming and clogs were applied? It's a good thing that the vet took samples of the infection to culture to make sure it is being addressed with the correct medications.

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.

How long is she supposed to be on the Isoxsuprine? It has been found to not be very effective when used orally in horses. The J-herb you were using(?) has much better vaso-dilating properties. IF she is on J-herb, shouldn't use it along with Previcox. What is the actual milligrams of the Previcox pill you are using half of?

Nothing applied to the sole will get into her blood to help infection as there is no blood supply anywhere near that area. All the blood vessels are tightly hugging the coffin bone and in the digital cushion. If needed, Lower Limb Perfusion would be one thing that could be done. Another is using sterile maggots.

As far as her diet is concerned, I thought Princess was on a mineral balanced diet? If so, then she has no need for any extra protein. Unfortunately, most vets do not understand that the amount of protein needed  is not based on the percent protein of the feeds but on the actual amount in grams that is being ingested. In an IR horse, excess protein can be a lamintis trigger so not a situation of "more can't hurt".

Sue, with your care Princess will outlive most of us. She is indeed a "Princess" and so incredibly lucky to have you as her person.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

" I would much rather acheive a tight vit/mineral balance with a custom supp blended to augment my hay, rather than blindly hoping im doing the right thing by using an 'all-purpose' supp for fatties like the 30% supps now avail"


Not sure if you are currently or have balanced your hay in the past, but these dense feed supplements...i...e..TC 30%  come in handy in some diet balancing situations.  In some cases, they can help provide additional protein, calcium, magnesium and contribute copper and zinc and work as palatable feed base for additional minerals that may be needed based on the hay profile.   Not all of us can balance our hay with a custom supplement so I am glad that there are other products that I can offer an owner to balance their horse's diet.  I think of them as another tool in the diet balancing process and not an "all-purpose supp for fatties".   

So if I am understanding your post your mare was IR and uncontrolled because she was early PPID.  Are you still soaking her hay?  Is she on a custom supplement to balance her hay? Sorry, I am not understanding where you are at with your diet for her......what is the ESC + Starch in her current hay?  You can just write it in a post if you CH is unavailable.

Thank you, 

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 10/12


 




Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Kerry's given you a lot of good information. I just want to piggyback on her response.

You never vaccinate a sick individual (horse, dog, person, whatever) for anything. All vaccines are labeled to only be used in healthy individuals. It doesn't matter what they are ill from or what you would be vaccinating for.

Vaccinating for Lyme in an individual that already has the disease is dangerous - there have been severe reactions recorded.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


>>>>>>>>

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

 

Hi all,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the TC Lite's NSC is not "guaranteed" in each bag, and can vary tremendously from batch to batch (ask me how I know). 

The TC 30, however, *is* guaranteed to be 9.8% in each batch, as it's made in one plant with consistent testing.

That doesn't mean that the TC 30 won't be too high for some horses, especially if feeding 1 lb. of it. As a ¼ - ½ cup "taste tempter", I've had no problems.

Don't forget to add up the Selenium in these products, if you are feeding additional Selenium.

TC has a good chart with some of this explained in footnotes about the range of sugars and starch that can occur across products.

Jannalee
Talent, OR
2008


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kerry Isherwood
 

....."What was/is the ESC + Starch in the hay you were/are feeding at the time when you experienced these crises?".....

hi Kathy,
These occurrences were last year when my mare was severely IR but not yet diagnosed PPID. This is the scenario I mentioned in another recent post/topic whereby I could not get any of my local vets to believe my mare was in fact early PPID (no clinical symptoms, borderline 36.6 ACTH, Cornell), etc until I found she was repeatedly hyperglycemic (in retrospect I believe commercial labs I was using were showing falsely lowered glucose results bc of the collection technique all during the time of mare's diet/exercise refractory IR (late summer '14). All last summer my mare was competing heavily (eventing) & was on soaked grass hay (roughly 8.0% *before* soak) and never more than 7.5% esc+starch bagged/chopped forage (and I weighed every serving down to the ounce!) yet she was still having severe insulin swings due to her as-yet-unknown PPID. Early on during the Summer of Hell as I now call it, my vet advised to add one of the 1-lb all-around 30% protein supps (I tried TC, Poulin's, and McCauley's) and each time had a terrible insulin spike. My mare is one of the cursed ones that cannot handle any fats, or a single bite of grass, any kind of grain product, etc and that is true still today, even with IR well-controlled on pergolide. Im way too gunshy to try one of the products now, and its a moot point anyway, because I would much rather acheive a tight vit/mineral balance with a custom supp blended to augment my hay, rather than blindly hoping im doing the right thing by using an 'all-purpose' supp for fatties like the 30% supps now avail

Hopefully that answers your question. Unfortunately Neo erased my painstakingly detailed CH on my mare and Ive yet to update & repost it.

Kerry in NY
Sept 14


Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

Lorna Cane
 



>.I'll try feeding it without soaking and see how he does, if he comes up more sore footed then i'll have my anwser. 

Do you know what the sugar value is?
The starch value?
That could give you a better idea of how much of a chance you want to take,on an already- sore horse.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

What was/is the ESC + Starch in the hay you were/are feeding at the time when you experienced these crises?   
Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

I'am not going to give the lyme vaccine to jasper not worth the risk of losing him to a severe reaction. Like you said a round of doxy takes care of the lyme dease. Hopefully this 4 months of treatment will keep him good for a while. 

Think the older gelding has chronic lyme dease it's been never ending for him already has relapsed 6 times  this spring. 

My dogs have never had issues with spring vaccination,they both did fine this spring after being vaccinated.

Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kerry Isherwood
 

....."The NSC on Triple Crown 30 is 9.8%".....

My IR//PPID mare is very sensitive to sugars, esp while in a hyperinsulinemic crisis. Thru many trials & errors, Ive found she cannot handle any ESC+starch over 7% (when she's not in crisis, she can handle up to about 10% when in heavy work). To say it another way, a horse may be seemingly fine on "x" diet until it reaches a threshold of insulin resistance whereby the same "x" diet its been eating all along suddenly is fueling the IR and ultimately making it worse; its not the diet that changed, its the horse's tolerance to it). So your horse *may* have seemingly been fine on the TC-30 for some time, then he reached a degree of IR that wrenched his metabolism into a downward spiral. The only real way to tell for sure is to test his insulin while on the TC-30. If you dont want to test, then simply take him off of it and see if he improves. But to do this definitively then you'll need to know what the exact % ESC+starch of the hay & rest of his diet is to be able to accurately ascertain if the TC-30 is the culprit. You should only remove one variable at a time to pinpoint the problem. However, if your horse has already become hyperinsulinemic and has sub-clinical laminitis at present, then you need to scrap everything & start the Energency Diet immediately to get the insulin down, which kinda brings you back full circle to really needing to check the insulin by blood test.
FWIW, my mare could not eat any of the bagged 1-lb supps like the TC-30 (McCauleys, Poulin, etc). Every one of them threw her into crisis, even when in full work.

Good luck,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

I'll try feeding it without soaking and see how he does, if he comes up more sore footed then i'll have my anwser. 


Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8



Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

Kerry Isherwood
 

Corrine,

I stand corrected, you are right that there have been some recent trials using canine Lyme vaccines in horses, however, it is still experimental, the mechanism(s) of action(s) not confidentally understood, and obviously is an extra-label situation. Some practices are requiring clients to sign waivers of liability bc of the FDA off-label use.

Personally, I would not take the risk in any compromised horse (IR, PPID, etc), and especially not in one with known severe reactions to other vaccines. Honestly, its still too experimental for my taste to even consider using it in a *completely healthy* horse. Yes, Lyme disease sucks, but its unlikely to be fatal, oral doxy usually gets them back on their feet in a week, and those are far lesser risks in my mind than the potential for severe auto-immune reactions of an experimental vaccine. IME, Ive just seen too many fatal reactions from vaccines in my career to warrant the risk (my own older dog succumbed to myasthenia gravis after routine vaccines; a healthy middle-aged horse i knew was euthanized from severe laminitis after a single PHF vaccine; not to mention the rash of Immune-Mediated-Hemolytic-Anemia (IMHA) cases we see each June/July in dogs after spring vaccines, of which many are fatal). Im NOT anti-vaccine, quite the contrary; but I would not take the risk of introducing an experimental, off-label dog vaccine into my extremely fragile, already laminitic horse. Maybe in 5-10 years when the vaccine is better understood & more studies have been completed, but definitely not with the state of limited information as we have at this point in time

My opinion only.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

threehorsefarm
 

His hay is balanced with the triple crown 30. I am not convinced at all the TC 30 is the problem, just wondered if anyone had problems with it.  I am going to order the mix today from Horsetech and start that.  Thanks for the replies; tried to trim this but don't see how to do it, so apologies.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:11 PM, kathbrink@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Hi Robyn,


Do you have an E-A  analysis for the  hay you are feeding?  If you have a CH filled out might you provide a link to it?   


Are you feeding the TC 30 to help balance your hay?   How much are you feeding per day?  


Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12









Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

Lorna Cane
 


> soaking will work now,but come winter it's 25 and 30 below zero wet hay freezes with in minutes.Not sure what i'am going to do come winter if hay needs to be soaked.

It will depend on how sensitive Jasper is wrt needing to soak 10% hay or not.

Many of us have soaked hay in temps like the above. Horses don't mind haysicles at all.In fact,I think they enjoy it.
It's not fun, but it's definitely doable.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

corrine haffner
 

Hi 
Hay guy had test re done on hay first test was WSC + starch. New test is ESC + starch total is 10%. No i don't have a copy of test.The testing was done at cornell.

Am i going to need to soak this hay then?? soaking will work now,but come winter it's 25 and 30 below zero wet hay freezes with in minutes.Not sure what i'am going to do come winter if hay needs to be soaked.

The hay is grass with 50 percent timothy in it,and less then 10 percent alfalfa in it.


Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8



Re: Overwhelming

Larks Tabatha
 

I love my Paddock Paradise style track system that keeps my horse and donkey off the green growth in their pasture, but still allows them to meander all day from one hay net to the next, which are spread out along the dirt track that we created with an electric fence line.  I now feel much better about not being able to let them out to graze knowing they have room to roam and they can have a good run and buck whenever the mood hits :) 

Sally in AZ
April 2013


Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

There are 3 horse vets around here all are saying the dog lyme vaccine works for horses. One vet  claims it solved on clients horses relapsing with lyme dease,after vaccinating her horses. Vet that came yesterday for boarded horse also claims the vaccine works,even for horses that have been sick with lymes before.

I know there are different strains of lymes,also realize the vaccine might or might not work for all strains of lyme dease. I was just wanting to know if it was worth doing,vets here claim it works,i don't know if it does or doesn't.  I'am just going by what the different vets have told me,so thought i'd ask on here about it.

I'll skip doing the lyme vaccine for the horses,other vaccines they need to have EWT every summer there are cases of EE around here so not taking a chance on that.Jasper has always reacted to vaccines since he was a yearling. The last two or so years it's gotten worse,runs a fever of 103 sore neck goes off feed last up to a week,sometimes less. So down to giving him just the EWT .

Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


More pony problems

hinecedark@...
 

I'm unable to find anything specific about this in the archives. Briefly, Bambino developed tender feet and thick, hard crest in May while on an unchanged low s/s diet. Started on pergolide trial May 24. Hoof tenderness resolved by the end of the week, pergolide continuing. He also, right around this time, developed four nodular sarcomas on each upper eyelid. He had had one removed surgically (also eyelid) three years ago, with no recurrence until this time. I can't help wondering if this is totally a coincidence, if the immune suppression of the PPID is likely to have triggered it, or if the jaiogulan I started giving him when he was having hoof pain could play a part . . . . Is there any definite knowledge on this? Any theories? Any suggestions for inhibiting their growth?

Thank you,


Melinda

IN 2010





 


Re: just discovered my pony may have ppdi or IR :0( help!

takarri@...
 

 

 

Hi Sandie

 

Welcome to the EC group, you’ve come to the right place for help.  I know it’s easy to be overwhelmed with all this and I’m about to overwhelm you a bit more, sorry. Take a breath and read on. Firstly, what we really need you to do so that we have all the details we need to give you the best advice is to fill out a case history on him  To do that, you need to join one of our sister groups called ECH8.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Once you get approved, which shouldn't take long, just follow the instructions to fill out a case history (CH) on your mare.  If you have any trouble joining ECH8, just let us know and we can send you an invite.  Could you let us know what age and breed your girl is?  Meanwhile, I will tell our about our philosophy called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: Is done with blood work. We recommend having blood drawn to test for Insulin, Glucose, Leptin and ACTH. ACTH is used to diagnose PPID (Cushings) while insulin, glucose and leptin are used to diagnose Insulin Resistance (IR). The samples should be drawn at home and NON-fasting as fasting will produce artificially low results and are a holdover from human testing protocols. A pony can be only IR, only PPID, neither or both. PPID is managed using meds while IR is managed thru diet. Please post us the blood results once you have the results of the tests. I’m not sure if you’ve come across this file yet- it’s a guide to blood testing in Australia

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Australia/

 

DIET: Low sugar/starch/fat, forage based with minerals supplemented based on your forage analysis. Until you can have your hay tested, we recommend using the emergency diet you were sent when you joined. This is a safe, temporary way to feed that won't do any harm but will definitely help an IR/PPID equine. As important as what to feed is what NOT to feed. No grain, pasture, red/brown salt blocks, apples, carrots, sugary treats, lucerne. Soaking untested hay for 30 minutes in hot water or 60 min in cold water then dumping the water where the pony can't get it will help remove up to 30% of the sugars and make it safer to feed. Should plan to feed 2% of ideal body weight in soaked hay per day, divided into 3-4 feedings. Small mesh hay nets are a great way to make the hay rations last longer. You can use a small amount of rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp as a carrier for the emergency diet (ED) items of salt, vit E gelcaps with oil in them, ground flax and magnesium. All of these ED items are available at your local pharmacy/grocery store or stock feed place.  Great that you using Speedibeet however, but I would stop the lami- light (it has some ingredients in it that would not be considered suitable for a metabolic horse)  Lucerne is also not recommended for IR equines as it makes many of them footsore (high protein, high starch may be some of the factors) Turmeric is fine, but needs oil & ground black pepper to be effective. Then you also need to be careful as to which oil you use- Flax is recommended.

Would you mind letting me know where abouts in Geelong you got your hay from?  Meadow/pasture hay is “usually” ok- but you won’t know definitively without being tested. Is it native pasture or does it have clover in it?  I would continue soaking it- one hour in cold water or 30 mins in hot water.  This is the hard bit- until you have an actual diagnosis- I would keep her off any grass access. Even though it’s native pasture, the sugar/starch is still an unknown entity and if it’s poor or stressed, then it’s likely to be higher in sugar/starch.  If she is IR or PPID, once she is stabilised on a proper balanced diet, the hungry hippo factor should dissipate..  How much hay are you feeding her? You may need to increase it.


TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs and supports the internal structures. This is one of the most common "missing links" when soundness is an issue. We encourage you to post pictures of your pony in the PHOTOS section of ECHistory8 so that we can help make sure the trim is optimal. If there are any lameness issues, we recommend boots and pads for comfort. If you need recommendations for a barefoot trimmer that is on board with the EC guidelines for hoof trimming, I can pass on details.

EXERCISE: Best IR busters there is, but never force a sore equine to move. Need to be especially careful if there  are any NSAID's being used as this will mask pain and encourage the equine to do too much too soon on compromised feet.

We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to give you ideas where to source items locally. Once you have your case history done we ask that you add the link to that to your signature as well so the volunteers can find your info easily.

 

When you get a chance after reading all of the above, also have a read through this  www.ecirhorse.org  

It’s quite an informative guide regarding PPID/IR.

 

 I’m in   Bannockburn - near Geelong- so not that far from you. I'm happy to help you where I can.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 


hi. my daughter's beautiful pony may have the above. she is getting blood tested on Friday. can I confirm and get advice for now as I am very overwhelmed and she is an absolute gem.




Re: Dog Lyme Vaccine For Horses??

Kerry Isherwood
 

....." I'am on here asking because jasper is still being treated for lyme so currently has no symptoms right now. If vaccinating him now while being treated?? "....

>> No, you do not want to vaccinate him during treatment.  As for any vaccine, you would only want to vaccinate an animal while in good health, never while its ill.


....."or if i should even vaccinate for lymes at all??  Jasper also is very reactive to all vaccines,sore neck runs a fever and goes off feed. "....

>> Personally I would not take the risk, esp with a vaccine designed for another species.


....." I'am a bit leery of giving the lyme vaccine to two horses who have both been sick with lyme dease,other gelding got sick in 2010,so five years of relapsing on and off.  Did  a search in the archives still don't know if vaccinating for lymes is a good idea or not. ".....

>> The way a vaccine works is that it introduces a benign, mutated, & safe version of a disease (think "killed virus" labelled on some vaccines).  The purpose of introducing it to the body is for the body to then make antibodies specific to that disease so that if/when the horse does encounter the disease, he will have some immune protection "ready to go" with the antibodies that he has on stand-by.  That way, he/she will only suffer a mild form of the disease, if any at all.

So if your horses already *have* Lyme disease, then there's no real point in vaccinating against it.  Their bodies are already trying to make antibodies to fight it.  As another mentioned, there are several known strains of Lyme spirochetes and very likely some we haven't yet identified.  The canine vaccine will not offer protection against all -- if any -- of the ones known to cause equine Lyme.


...."Would be nice not to have both horses relapsing every few months or so,seems if either horse gets stressed bam,lyme relapse."....

>> Unfortunately that is the hallmark of chronic Lyme.  An OTTB I'm rehabbing had an abrupt behavior change recently following a long trailering and tough lesson at a new barn.  Even that was enough to cause a Lyme relapse on a former racehorse that had won nearly $500,000 (my point being that this is a horse that can handle stress!)  Luckily his owner is also a vet and said he had done this once before, and a week on doxy had him back to his mellow self.  Another horse in our barn is the least stressed horse I can think of, yet has a relapse about once a year, this time it manifested in yet another odd set of symptoms.  We still cannot pinpoint what is triggering it, but luckily he responds very well to a round of doxy.

Furthermore, the vaccine is not going to prevent relapses of chronic Lyme; in theory it would only prevent re-infection (getting Lyme as a new disease all over again, vs. relapsing which is recurrence of ongoing disease).


....."I know the vaccine has worked for both dogs neither have ever had lyme dease yet,one dog is 8 years old other dog is 10."....

>> My husband and I own a veterinary hospital and from what we've seen, we do not vaccinate our own dogs for Lyme.  The current vaccines just doesn't offer enough protection for the strains we know of, as well as the strains we don't.  That being said, we do offer it for the clients that want it.  Personally, I am of a conservative nature and do not want to vaccinate for anything more than I absolutely have to.  That goes for my horses as well, esp now with two IRs, one PPID who is having scary reactions to simple core vaccine like flu/rhino.  I would never take the chance on a non-essential vaccine such as Lyme.  Lastly, I have to admit I've never heard of giving a horse the dog Lyme vaccine.  But I certainly don't know everything! 

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


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