Date   

Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

Nancy C
 

I could have sworn we discussed this before, Corrine.  May have been another member.

That starch is high. Starch does not soak out of the hay.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015

2015 Conference Schedule

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

ESC + Starch for jasper sugar being at 5.8 & starch being at 4.2 %. He's come up very sore this morning after 2 feedings of this hay unsoaked.


Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8



Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

corrine haffner
 

 Hi Kerry

>>>> how is Jasper's water consumption been lately?>>>>>

He's drinks on average 25 gallons a day and  pee's alot  his 14 X 12 stall, half is soaked in pee daily. He's in barn all day due to horrible bugs, horse flies are swarming here as of wed this week,gotta love minnesota land of ten thousand kinds of bugs:)


Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014


Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

So should i go back up to the 4 scoops of PQ 2 scoops AM 2 scoops PM ?? I'll soak the hay for him for sure. He scores a 3 1/2 today so he's pretty uncomfortable for sure,he was doing quite well yesterday at a score of 2,then he had they un soaked hay.

He's on 6lbs of the ODTB cubes maybe i should up that to 20 lbs and give only a few pounds of soaked hay??

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8



Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Yes, you are correct. That 227 on the pill means it is 227mg per pill. The Previcox only comes in two sizes, the 57mg and the 227mg. Most vets tend to overdose the Previcox when prescribing it for a horse - maybe because they don't really read that horses are dosed at such a smaller rate than dogs are. It is a common - and huge - problem because overdosing firocoxib (the active ingredient) can have very real and dangerous side effects.

Although painful, abscesses are a good thing in that they are removing trapped material that needs to get out. Hoping that the infections are now going to be able to be brought under control as well.

If she will eat more of the ODTBC then by all means feed those to her. That would be the simplest way for you to up her calories right now and still maintain a well-balanced diet.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team








Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

The sugar (ESC) is fine but that starch is pretty high and starch converts 100% to glucose while ESC only converts 50% to glucose. Starch also isn't lowered by soaking. If feeding this hay it would definitely need soaking for Jasper so at least the sugar is lowered.

Hard to say, but I think you are correct that it is a combination of the two factors that is making him more uncomfortable.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper



Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Corrine, how is Jasper's water consumption been lately?

Kerry in NY
Sept 14


Re: New Hay To high ESC + Starch

corrine haffner
 

Hi

So new hay must be to high ESC + Starch for jasper sugar being at 5.8 & starch being at 4.2 %. He's come up very sore this morning after 2 feedings of this hay unsoaked.

Don't know if its really hay or that i dropped PQ down to 2 scoops a day,was doing better reason i dropped PQ dose back to 2 scoops a day. Maybe a combination of hay and less PQ??

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
ECHistory8



Re: 24 year old Dutch Warmblood with Cushings, pelleted diet only

ReneR
 

Hi Tessa,

Welcome to the group!


I want to directly address your question about pelleted feed.  But before I get to that please give us more details about your horse.  Please join our sister site called ECH8 and fill out a case history.  Here is a link to that group:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info 

You will receive prompt approval to join and then please follow the instructions on the main page to fill out a case history.  


 We have a specific philosophy and process.  We call it DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.   I will send more detail on this soon.  If you want to dive into the files then you can go ahead and start learning.


I'm not sure we are allowed to recommend specific feeds but I sure can tell you what I use.  I'm very happy with this pelleted feed and my Cushings horses do great with it.


I use NuZu Stabul 1.  It is balanced, and highly fortified to meet the dietary needs of horses. 

Best of all it is very low starch/sugar.

It's a little tricky to find.  I had to negotiate with my feed store to order it for me.  You can check around in your area and even ask others in this group if there is a source in your area.  I'll add a link for you to get more info.


When posting to the site please sign with your name, date that you joined the group and a link to your case history (CH).  That will help expedite responses to your questions. 


Thanks for joining,

Renee’ from Texas, member since 2008

EC member Primary Response Team



Find more information here:

7550 Stabul


 


Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Thanks for all your help and support.
 the previcox. I'm going to call the vet and make sure what I'm saying the correct dose . the 227 is on the side of the pill so I'm not sure if that's the dose.(sorry). will check and let you know. princess is no longer 770 she lost about 275 pounds and I got her back up to 560 something. I would have to check in the barn. she a skinny little girl..
question on the alfalfa she was getting it before 1/2 pound a day and adding 1/2 more pound would throw her off that much?
we should be cutting hay any day now if it would quit raining for 3 to 4 days.. so I would have a new batch to balance..
I'll look into the whey protein isolate.. what could I give her to get her to pick up some weight safely? the timothy balance cubes I think would be my best bet and safe.. shes eating A LOT of them now.. plus all the hay she wants..24/7
shes a little more sore today but not as bad as she was.. but not as good as she was yesterday.. could it be because the bute is working its was out of her system... 
I  hate theses damn abases that's the whole problem now.. . founder sounds easy now.. I know its not but it was in the beginning.. 
keep you updated.
sue & princess
6/11



On Friday, June 26, 2015 5:50 AM, "windybriars@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 

>Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition? 

Pain does not necessarily require a horse to be fed 2X regular feed amounts.

When my horses sloughed all their hooves, I was feeding one of them ~ 6X his regular feed amounts. And he still lost about ~300 pounds.

I know I didn't answer your question. Just wanted to say that it depends.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup






Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

Lorna Cane
 


>Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition? 

Pain does not necessarily require a horse to be fed 2X regular feed amounts.

When my horses sloughed all their hooves, I was feeding one of them ~ 6X his regular feed amounts. And he still lost about ~300 pounds.

I know I didn't answer your question. Just wanted to say that it depends.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





24 year old Dutch Warmblood with Cushings, pelleted diet only

northbeachdogs@...
 

Hi Everyone,

Im new to the group. My horse was diagnosed with Cushings about 5 years ago and it has been quite the challenge keeping him healthy. He's had several teeth removed over the last 7 years and one root infection created a oral nasal fistula. This went undiagnosed for two years after the tooth was removed. The poor guy had nasal discharge and a foul smell coming from his nostril. Countless vet visits only led to putting him on antibiotics for a sinus infection. I finally had enough and took him to Davis to find out what was going on with him. They found the small fistula and it was compacted with hay, which was rotting and creating that foul smell and discharge. So the vet ordered no more hay and to put him on Stable mix diet. I came on this site and searched your conversations for info on the Elk Grove stable mix diet, which hes been eating for the past 8 months or so. Im freaking out since it looks like this mix is too high in sugars and should not be given to a horse with Cushings. Does anyone have any recommendations for a balanced pelleted diet that would be safe for him to eat? We live in the Bay area and he currently eats 4 large scoops of EG stable mix, one pill a day of prascend, and california trace minerals. He's been barefoot for the first time in his life for the past year, which has been a slow progress. He easily gets thrush, but after adding the trace minerals and taking the shoes off he seems to be clear of that now. I can go on and on about different health ailments we have gone through, but right now Im just looking for some guidance on a daily feed for the poor guy. Im very frustrated because it seems Im steered down the wrong path after EVERY vet visit. After reading some posts on here about EG and Cushings horses, Why would the vet recommend EG to a horse with Cushings? 


Thanks to you all for any information or help you can provide. Sorry if I seem frustrated.


Tessa


Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Sue - I am so glad Princess is feeling better.  She is very lucky to have you (and your husband!) in her camp.

I just want to second Lavinia's information about Previcox (and the rest of the excellent information about the alfalfa, minocycline etc).  The correct dose for a horse is .045 mg per lb body weight; for Princess at 770 lbs, that would be 34.65 mg, or just over a tenth of a 227 mg tablet.  Half a tablet is over 3 times the recommended dose; a quarter of a tablet is 1.6 times the recommended dose.  The correct dose for her would be half of a 57 mg tablet.

This is a common problem with using Previcox, the dog formulation of firocoxib, for horses. The dose of firocoxib for dogs is 2.27 mgs per pound body weight.  That is fifty times the dose that is suitable for a horse, so you can see where overdosing can creep in.  The Previcox dose for Princess should be exactly the same dose one would give to a small standard dachshund - weird, but true.  Please toss the 227 mg tabs, or keep them for your dogs, and get some 57 mg tabs for her, using half of one of those tabs.  Check with your vet, of course (especially don't use them on your dogs without clearing it with the vet first), but you will find that is the correct dose.


Big hugs to you and Princess,

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/princesslegacy/

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <wolffarm4@...> wrote :

hi,
Princess is doing good today her front feed are under her most of the time but when she lays down and gets up she has them out some but not like she did before..

the provicox is 227 I'm not sure what that means? she gets that 1/2 for 7 days and then 1/4 till they run out I have 10 tab's.. we hope she will be out of pain before we use all of them. shes using it for pain because she does not want her on bute.. warped. should be able to... I'll post then too.. 








Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

lj friedman
 

Why does pain require a horse to be fed 2 x regular feed to maintain condition?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Kathy,

Hopefulky I can clarify

....."25% of you mare's diet is untested hay (unsoaked) and from what I understand from your post your gelding is fed the same hay (soaked) and it is at least 50% of his diet and soon to be 100% (?)."....

Sorry for the confusion. Firstly, my mare: she is doing well on the ODTBC as >75% of her diet (the 5 lbs/days is the maximum; it is some of last years first cut that is quite poor quality mixed grass hay). She just nibbles on it throughout the day and the most she gets is 5 lbs, but usually less. With the 15-lbs of ODTBC/day, she is more than adequately meeting her 1-2% body weight in forage that, as Ive read many times, as ODTBC is a completely balanced diet in and unto itself (with addition if iodized salt/flax/VitE). Whatever she is getting from the nibbles of long stem hay in the haynet is minimal. Yes, I'd love to know exactly whats in the 5-lbs a day of hay she eats but its just not practical at this point in time for me to buy small lots of hays and have each analyzed at $56/a pop when im using so little.

However, when my gelding stabilizes from his latest insulin crisis, which is hopefully very soon, I will need to procure a large load of analyzed hay to feed the him, the one who gained too much weight on ODTBC when they comprised the bulk of his diet (thru winter into spring). He is in moderate to heavy work but the cubes still add too much weight now that the need for extra calories for winter warmth has abated (meaning, he was on 20-lbs ODTBC plus free choice analyzed hay all winter living out clipped & blanketed. He maintained perfect weight & insulin levels thru winter. In spring i dropped the cubes to 15-lbs, then 10-lbs, along with free choice analyzed hay and he still gained weight. I did not see how *much* weight he had gained until he got into an insulin crisis beginning of this month when theoretically he should not have. Extensive testing only showed iron overload that is definitely an old problem from eating god only knows what in the eight years before his IR diagnosis.

My mare & gelding live on different farms and do not eat the same hay. He is eating a 2015 first cut mixed grass that is grown/baled by the farm where he is boarded. I feed the hay they have bc, well, its part of the board i pay for. In the past the same fields & cut have analyzed well below 8% ESC+starch. In the Northeast it has been a difficult season for first cuts of hay due to an early drought. Loads have been small. Regardless, my gelding got into an insulin crisis in early June and went on the Emergency Diet (only soaked grass hay, nothing else, no cubes). He was indeed footsore for a few days. Once that ended i re-introduced the iodized salt, vit E oil, and flax slowly and watched for signs of hoof soreness returning. It did not. A few more days passed and his wild frantic behavior began to mellow out--thats when I know his insulin is back down into his "normal" (mid 20s uU/dL). I could draw blood now to be sure he's in good shape but as we are entering the weekend i will wait until Monday for a fresher blood sample. It wont hurt him to have a few more days of soaked hay. With confirmation of blood results showing a good insulin level has been acheived, I will then take him off the soaked hay and gradually switch over to something unsoaked that has been analyzed. If the farm where he boards does not have a long-term supply that is practical to analyze, then I will buy my own hay. Either way the gelding (and mare) will go onto an analyzed hay & balanced diet. I choose to keep the mare on cubes bc she maintains weight well on them, theyre easy to buy, transport, and store at my home barn where my mare lives.

....." I don't understand what you mean when you say you will analyze his hay and get him a custom supplement when the time comes? What time is that? ".....

that time is when his insulin has returned to his "normal", as I stated above, i believe it already has but being thorough and bc i can, I will send a blood sample for insulin test to confirm. Then he will wean off the soaked hay and onto something analyzed and I will definitely balance his vit/min supp to his hay bc he is having trouble staying controlled, which may or may not be the iron overload issue.

....."Addressing the iron overload issues starts with a hay analysis. I, also, think it would be prudent to know what the 5#'s of hay is contributing to you mare's diet or if you could feed her daily ration in this now tested hay."....

of course, i agree completely! The mare is not iron overloaded at present and Ill kill two birds with one stone by locating an abundant hay source that i can analyze and feed both horses (although I will opt to keep the mare on ODTBC bc shes doing very well on current diet plan. I dont think its necessarily better to have her on long-stem hay if doing fine on the cubes. Her routine insulin checks have been staticly "normal" for her (20s uU/dL)
Maybe your confusion is from why I dont already have an analyzed hay in use--thats bc of the crappy spring weather we've had, sparse hay supplies, and waiting to see where I can most likely find a consistent & abundant hay source. My local suppliers are bringing in hay daily so likely next week if my geldings blood results are good Ill decide on my best hay option & have it analyzed.

Hope this clears things up. Sorry not proofed or edited--long day!

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Sue, your husband is a saint as well. Princess is beyond lucky.

That dose of Previcox (canine formulation of firocoxib) is a HUGE overdose. It is appropriate for an approximately 2500lb horse and I don't believe Princess is anywhere near that size. Even 1/4 of that pill is STILL overdosing for her size. Previcox does have the potential for serious side effects, just like any other NSAID does, esp when it is overdosed. Please have a read here:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AnimalVeterinary/Products/ApprovedAnimalDrugProducts/DrugLabels/UCM050387.pdf

Totally understand giving minocycline - it is related to doxycycline and is safe to use in IR horses.

Upping the alfalfa could be problematic as Princess has shown herself to be quite sensitive to feed ingredients. Alfalfa is known to make many IR horses footsore so it doesn't seem to be the best choice here. Plus, it will throw off your calcium/phosphorus ratios as alfalfa is quite high in calcium. She is likely losing weight because of pain - she needs more total calories rather than just upping an arbitrary ingredient. Pain can cause an individual to need double the calories (or more) to maintain condition. If you need to add protein, whey protein isolate would be a better choice. If this was my girl, I'd ask one of the hay gurus or Dr. Kellon to help you tweak her diet so as to keep it balanced and keep it providing all the proper nutrients she needs to heal.

Sounds like they did a good job of getting as much infectino out as was possible and opening access areas to the rest. The Regional Limb Perfusion is used to get the infection under control in cases where oral meds do not work. It is very difficult to get enough antibiotic into infected hoof areas any other way. More info on it in the files here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Regional%20Limb%20Perfusion/

Hugs to both of you.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team






Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kerry,

Thank you for the clarification.

25% of you mare's diet is untested hay (unsoaked)  and from what I understand from your post your gelding is fed the same hay (soaked) and it is at least 50% of his diet and soon to be 100% (?).   I don't understand what you mean when you say you will analyze his hay and get him a custom supplement when the time comes?  What time is that?   Addressing the iron overload issues starts with a hay analysis.  I, also, think it would be prudent to know what the 5#'s of hay is contributing to you mare's diet or if you could feed her daily ration in this now tested hay.

Regards,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12


-


Re: Triple Crown 30 -- anyone else having problems with it?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi Kathy, 

....."Not all of us can balance our hay with a custom supplement so I am glad that there are other products that I can offer an owner to balance their horse's diet.  I think of them as another tool in the diet balancing process and not an "all-purpose supp for fatties".".....


>>> my apologies if my statement sounded facetious -- it was not meant to be.  Yes, I agree the concentrated 30% supps are better than nothing for those of us that cannot feed fortified grain!  And by "fatties" I should have said "easy-keepers".  Again, my apologies.


....."So if I am understanding your post your mare was IR and uncontrolled because she was early PPID.  Are you still soaking her hay?  Is she on a custom supplement to balance her hay? Sorry, I am not understanding where you are at with your diet for her......what is the ESC + Starch in her current hay?".....

>>> My mare is on 15 lbs/day ODTBC and roughly 5lbs/day mixed grass hay in a small mesh haynet (unsoaked).  The cubes are spread around her drylot so she can "graze" and the crumbs that are too small to toss are used as the carrier for iodized salt (1oz), ground flax (1oz), and VitE 2500IU/day.  If she works hard (10 miles+) she gets a handful of soaked cubes 1 hr after work with a scoop of electrolytes (Pro-lyte, by Uckele). 

Bc the bulk of her diet is the balanced cubes, I do not need to balance the relatively small amt of grass hay she consumes (as I understand from previous posts). 

Hopefully this answers your questions. 

As an aside, my IR gelding, who I recently discovered is iron overloaded and having insulin spikes despite tight diet and exercise, is on soaked hay still as Emergency Diet.  He is out of the sore foot phase thank goodness and starting to lose weight and act sane again (historically abrupt behavior changes are his only hyperinsulinemic symptom).  It appears he gains too much weight on the ODTBC when they compose >50% of his diet so he will have to have analyzed hay and a customized supp balanced to the hay when the time comes.  I plan to retest his insulin in approximately 1 week, although Im pretty sure it is already down due to his settled mental behavior.  Because of his iron overload problem, his diet will have to be ultra-tightly balanced if there's any hope of ever getting the dang iron out of his system (again, as i've been told via previous posts). 

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: up date on princess with new vet..... sue & princess

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hi,
Princess is doing good today her front feed are under her most of the time but when she lays down and gets up she has them out some but not like she did before.. YEA... the vet and blacksmith called and was worried she would be sorer today but shes a trooper and doing better then she was before they worked on her.. shes on the Isoxsuprine  20 mg and its for the for I think its 50 days. or until I run out. I have 1000 tabs.. the vet is going to come back out but would like to give princess a little more time to see how things go.. and she is not on the j-herb right now. I was giving her bute so there no j-herb in her system.
the infection. her hoof is taken off in the front close to the  bone and shes getting it washed out with meds and then packed with some pill crush up and packed in to help kill and work into all the little spots.
the provicox is 227 I'm not sure what that means? she gets that 1/2 for 7 days and then 1/4 till they run out I have 10 tab's.. we hope she will be out of pain before we use all of them. shes using it for pain because she does not want her on bute.. 
about the minocycline, that was just a little extra safety thing we wanted to do. when he opened her hoof up we did hit blood between the infection  and with the one being so close to the bone. if it did get to the bone before we got it, it would give her that little extra fighting power. , 
the protein. she is only getting 1 pound of standlee alfalfa pellets a day total she was getting 1/2 pound so she/we did not up it much. we need to add a little more for her she losing her body tone and tiring to get her to put some weight back on her she shes not so skinny.. she has hay 24/7 and timothy cubes most of the day. we are feeding the other back field and yes shes on a balanced diet but the back field was low in protein it might be a little off by adding 1/2 pound more of alfalfa.
the leg perfusion we are going to do that but she does not want to do that now until we get the infection under control. she seen were it was done and it pushed the infection in the leg and made thing worse..
the x-rays are only before the hoofs were done.. sorry
The blacksmith is coming out friday and I'm going to try and get photos of her up warped. should be able to... I'll post then too.. 
My husband came home from work on wednesday when I had everyone her working on her. the drive was packed. I even had the neighbor come over to make sure everything was ok. 4 big trucks and a x-ray van..  my husband came in the barn when I was holding princess, she got very jumpy when I left her so I had to stay with her, he handed me the credit card and said love you hope this works, I'm home if you need me... said hi to everyone.. never asked how much it cost ! sill hasn't.. hes just happy to see her doing better... gotta love him.... 
never would of thought the blacksmith does take plastic..
keep you posted....

 sue & princess
oh 6/11



On Thursday, June 25, 2015 2:23 PM, "shilohmom@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Sue,

Thanks for giving us an update. Glad that things seem to be moving in a better direction for Princess. Will be on the lookout for the latest xrays. Were any done after all the trimming and clogs were applied? It's a good thing that the vet took samples of the infection to culture to make sure it is being addressed with the correct medications.

Just a few thoughts for you to ponder.

How long is she supposed to be on the Isoxsuprine? It has been found to not be very effective when used orally in horses. The J-herb you were using(?) has much better vaso-dilating properties. IF she is on J-herb, shouldn't use it along with Previcox. What is the actual milligrams of the Previcox pill you are using half of?

Nothing applied to the sole will get into her blood to help infection as there is no blood supply anywhere near that area. All the blood vessels are tightly hugging the coffin bone and in the digital cushion. If needed, Lower Limb Perfusion would be one thing that could be done. Another is using sterile maggots.

As far as her diet is concerned, I thought Princess was on a mineral balanced diet? If so, then she has no need for any extra protein. Unfortunately, most vets do not understand that the amount of protein needed  is not based on the percent protein of the feeds but on the actual amount in grams that is being ingested. In an IR horse, excess protein can be a lamintis trigger so not a situation of "more can't hurt".

Sue, with your care Princess will outlive most of us. She is indeed a "Princess" and so incredibly lucky to have you as her person.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team








Re: Clippers for Cushings Coat

Judy L. Meadows <marktime@...>
 

I bought clippers from Barbara at the Clipper Barn of CT and clipped my Cushings horse Rudy last week.  He looks great, and I know he must feel so much better in our humid 90 degree days! :)

Judy in SWMO
4/2014

--
Judy L. Meadows
~in the Missouri Ozarks


Jasper's Weight How Is It??

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


I posted a picture of jasper on echistory8 ,need some input on how he looks weight wise. Does he look like he's dropping off weight ??  


Hard for me to tell i see him all the time so small changes i don't notice,he got quite thin last summer so don't want to go there again. There is a picture of him from last summer in my album,don't want him getting that thin again. So far today has been one of his best days pain wise he's standing normal he's a 2 on the pain score.

Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710



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