Re: giving a fig newton to IR horse

corrine haffner

Hi LJ 

Don't think i'd be using fig newtons they are loaded with sugar. I use sugar free mints crushed up put pergolide in it and jasper eats it up. 

My guess is the high sugar could effect insulin,so better to be safe then sorry,ask me how i know...

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014

giving a fig newton to IR horse

lj friedman

Jesse now refuses the IR treats that I put his prascend in..   he used to eat them readily.. ( flax, unsweet apple sauce, cinammon) So, I need something to give his prascend each day.  I can easily take a handful of timothy pellets and wet them a bit.. It is a bit of a hassle.. can a fig newton be offered without upsetting things like insulin, glucose?  etc  I gave him 2 as a test today and he ate them readily. .  lj friedman san diego nov 2014

Re: Weight taping question

Kerry Isherwood

Dont be too shocked about horses' weights: i recently put my fine-boned 15.2h Arab-esque Saddlebred on the local clinic's equine scale:

1,198 lbs

I almost fainted dead away. My gelding is *not* fat by any means.

Now Im terrified to put my IR Draft-cross on the scale...but theyre both going this week; part of my racketing down plan to evaluate each objectively.

When i relied on a weight tape i would clip a bit of hair on top of withers & belly so i always (or tried to) align the tape in the same spots. Made me feel better, FWIW.

All I can say abt the ACTH results is my gelding was *horrible* during the blood draw--jumping around, trying to lay down, even managed to bite me despite a chain shank & experienced holder. It was during an insulin spike so at least I anticipated the inevitable tantrum. Anyways, his ACTH was only 7.1 (ish) at Cornell (dont have exact number in front of me). However, that isnt to say that a PPID horse might not raise endogenous cortisol differently than a non-PPID...idk. However, if "stress at draw" was ever going to influence a healthy horse ACTH--it def woulda been that draw on that horse!! Yikes!

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Re: Ford's hoof pix


Hi, Lavinia.
Thank you for your very detailed explanation of what needs to happen with Ford's feet. I've made some small changes, but he is still uncomfortable. Should I be considering boots and/or pads? He's still moving around on his own, but choosing the softest ground. I have Old Macs, but they don't fit him well with his hooves in the current state (plus, they are not padded).

A few more questions:

"Xray RF DP: It looks like he may have been slightly off the block on the medial side when the shot was taken? "

He was on both blocks when the x-rays were taken. Does this change what I need to do with this foot?

"LF lateral: The blue line follows the new angle of growth. The purple is an idea of how much the toe needs to come back so the break over lines up with the angle of the new growth. Do not thin the dorsal wall in order to back the toe as that only thins an already compromised structure and doesn't really address the actual problem...."

To clarify - Rasp straight up and down to bring back the toe means not  thinning the dorsal wall??

" RF dorsal: The yellow lines highlight the flares in both walls in the back 1/3 of the foot. You can see the strain in the wall attachment if you start in the center front and work backwards. Put your hand on the dorsal wall and, with a light touch, move your hand rearward. There is a very distinct line where you will feel the wall bulge outward. It is visible to the eye as well. That is where you go from tighter connections to much more srained connections. Along that "fault line" there is a huge amount of stress. If not addressed, it is likely that the wall will split, with a crack running upward all the way to the coronary band. If that happens, it will be much more difficult to to get this corrected as now there will be a quarter crack to grow out"

So, it's OK to rasp along the "fault line" back towards the heel to remove much of the flared area? That won't impede the structural integrity of the foot?

" Judicious rasping of the heel buttresses to slowly and steadily bring them backward while preserving height as much as is possible is important."

The idea of judiciously rasping, yet preserving height makes me nervous. How do I know how much is enough to rasp without being too much?

I'll have more questions later, but wanted to get these out to you. Thank you again.

Fran and Ford in Texas



Weight taping question


Two questions, please:

Any idea how much a brief period of "needle shy" angst could increase the ACTH level?  My Arab gelding has his blood drawn at home and he was calm up to the moment the vet walked up to him, then he got tense. (Vet has a very direct, no nonsense manner).  When the needle went in, Khari flung up his head and back pedaled; the needle came out and he had to be stuck again while I held him.  His ACTH came back 42 - could the stress be enough to cause a normal level to go slightly out of range like this?

Second question:

 I have previously used an equine weight tape to estimate his weight and he taped at 980 lbs when he was fat - about a 7 BCS.  Since then, he has lost considerable weight; I'd call him a 4 - 4.5 now.  

I recently found this article:  ( )   and used the formula in it to check Khari's weight now, as the researchers found it to be the most accurate method.  By this calculation, he weighs 973 lbs.  Does this seem likely for a lightly muscled, ribs showing Arab?  He has quite tall, pronounced withers, which is where the heart girth is measured; might this skew the measurement enough to throw off the final weight significantly?

I just got new hay so am updating all my mineral calculations.  I'm STILL waiting for the glucose & insulin on the blood work drawn 5/19, if you can believe that.  Apparently, all the data went to BI first (this was subsidized lab work, used in their study) and getting it released to my vet is taking forever.  He was told it was "normal" but I have no idea what the acutal numbers are. Oh, and they didn't include a leptin level, even though it was listed as part of the equine metabolic panel.  So, forget I recommended on this list that people check into the BI subsidized lab work as a way of saving money - so not worth it!

  Anyway, I want to make sure everything is as tight as I can get it.  Khari is looking good but ribby so I'm using the 973 for now - but I find it hard to believe he is that heavy.

Jill & Khari in Idaho

December 2010


Re: Jasper's New hoof pictures are posted.

corrine haffner

Hi Lavinia 

No he's not wearing hoof boots took them off and can't get them back on. I'am working on rubber mats when i do his feet. I couldn't view the link says i need to be a member.  I'll try and get sole pictures when he's laying down.  Posted picture of RF Sole,can't get pic of LF.

I'll try working on his feet again today see if i can't get toes backed up more,then i'll try and re boot him with wedge pads like you described.

 I'v got to come forth with this guilt is getting the best of me,his being more sore footed,has a reason. I thought i'd try and temp him to eat the ODTB cubes by putting a handful of senior feed in it.

Feed is 26% ESC + starch So big time screw up on my part,i thought just a small handful wont hurt,boy was i wrong:(  

Re: Jasper's New hoof pictures are posted.

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Corinne,

The medial-lateral balnce looks pretty good from the posted shots. See if you can back the toes some more but don't thin the entire dorsal wall. Just put the rasp on its narrow edge on the ground (or shavings, mat, whatever surface you're working on) and file away along the hoof's leading edge, doing the entire length of the hoof from 10 til 2 o'clock. RF appears to need a bit more than the LF. Here's an idea of what it will look like when you're done:

Is he in boots? See if you can add a wedged pad in them to raise the heel area up some as the heels appear to be under run. Best way is to take a full-thickness pad and grind down the thickness in the front half - a grinder will work or a dremel, sandpaper can also do it, just takes longer. See how he responds to that.

His rear end is sore from weighting it more to relieve the fronts so any time he stands for awhile he will stiffen up more. Slow, gentle walking will help get the circulation going and help ease that tension a bit. Massage of all the major muscle groups in the shoulders and hind end will also help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Long Distance Transport,Supplements or Gear?

ferne fedeli

On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 11:37 AM, wildside@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

I'm thinking of APF. Was also looking at U-Guard rather than Ulcer_Guard (vet recommended) as it also has high magnesium (calming effects). 

Thoughts from members?

​>We have an Appaloosa that went through several colics over a 2-week period two+ years ago.  Our vet at the time said he expected that the horse might have a ulcer and recommended Ulcer-Guard.  I saw an article from Dr. Kellon about ulcer treatments and she mentioned that some people had good luck with U-Guard.  Since it was way cheaper, I decided to give it a try.  I gave it to him 3 times a day for several weeks and then switched to 2 times a day, which I give him with 2 cups of pellets before he eats anything else AM and PM.  He never had another colic attack!  Of course, to be fair, we also took him off grass hay and feed him soaked ODTB cubes and pellets and he spends the afternoon out at pasture.  ( He is not IR or PPID).,​

Jasper's New hoof pictures are posted.

corrine haffner


Posted new hoof pictures of jasper's front feet,trimmed yesterday. I'am concerned on how RF is looking,no sole views he can't hold up feet. Leg swelling is better today,he still very slow sore moving,can get a video,if i can text it to someone,my phone has no email on it. Did the best i could on trimming toes are at least shorter now.


Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

Re: How to find things in the ECIR Group. Save this post.


Hi Suzanne,
You can save the post by just flag and save/archive it in your email program.  Or you could  click on the the subject link in the daily digest and then bookmark the webpage it directs you to. Or you could  copy the message from the digest and it into a document and save it on your computer.

No need to save the post for the database, just go here and fill out the form.  It takes less than 10 minutes.

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004


Are YOU in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials  




Thanks to the 2013 Neo Yahoo changes, the Database Section of the Yahoo groups no longer function properly.   To keep the database going it has been temporarily saved in PDF format and posted in a drop box location.   

For the database to be the awesome tool it can be, we need every member whose equine is on pergolide to add  or update their information.  To make this as easy as possible we have a new and easier to use form.  No downloading or emailing required.  Please go here to add or update your equine's pergolide dosage information. 

If you have any questions or concerns, email LeeAnne at ECIR.Archives <at> gmail <dot> com.   


Please update or add your information to the database!  It will take under 10 minutes and your input will make this year's stats better than ever, answering many of the big questions regarding the use of pergolide. Most importantly these stats will return big benefits to all equines with PPID and vital feedback that will influence future protocols. 

"The only "correct" dose of pergolide is the one that controls his ACTH."
- Dr. Kellon, ECIR Message #132610, Sep 2, 2009.


Thank you for your cooperation and taking the time to thank the volunteers by “giving back”.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List

Re: Long Distance Transport,Supplements or Gear?

Tori Cullins

Thank you Jaini!

Re: Natural Foods

Michele Cameron

Thank you Nancy,
I will be saving this one to pass on!
Michele & Elijah Mustang, Everson, Wa, Jan.2015

Re: Long Distance Transport,Supplements or Gear?


Hi, Tori -

Jen McGeehan did the opposite trip to you with her 29 year old, PPID, recovered founder gelding Smoke - they loaded up and went to Hawaii.  There are a few good suggestions for traveling with compromised horses in the various posts to and from Jen.

I am having a complete brain fart about the useful suggestions right now, but I know there was some good info.


Re: Natural Foods

corrine haffner

<<<Optimum EQ is primarily blue green algae. It is extremely dark green.
The tiny bits of dried veggies, fruits and nuts.>>>>

Hi Beverly 

I'v been following your post. Even just tiny bits of high sugar/starch fruits can be enough to set off a laminitis episode in an IR horse. That is what everyone on here is trying to point out to you, it doesn't have to be a huge amount for a sensitive horse.

Even that tablespoon a day of this supplement could have just enough tiny bits of fruits in it to keep your ginger laminatic or sore footed. 

I know from experience that jasper can't handle even a tiny amount of apple or carrot, just one tiny peice and he's sore footed next day. Something to think about,it took me a long time to come to the fact that my horse can't have treats loaded with sugar/starch not even a tiny little piece. 

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014

Re: adding AAKG and ALCAR for laminitic mini?


When I say I "put out 30lbs of hay", that doesn't mean they eat it all. They eat about 90% of what I put out. Also, my 250lb mini is very high maintenance since she's very active and high strung (its a battle to keep her body score a 5). The other two are very low maintenance.

When I did the trim pictured, I realized that things weren't going well. I was 2-3 trims in to experimenting with ELPO hoof mapping. I've since discarded that trim style and have gone back to a more barefoot style trim. I'll try to get pics tomorrow. 

Any tips for getting good hoof pics with an iPhone? The pics I'm getting look more distorted than the hoof I see in front of me. 

If she decides she wants to tear around the dry lot with her sister, is it ok to work her? Her pulses were normal last night and this afternoon.

How much work should she be getting? Will adding in some jumps help give her a more intense workout? Right now, I just don't have time to do the training I really want to do with her, so its free lunging for now. 

I have quite a bit of land, and also a lot of fence posts and fencing. If I make a paddock paradise setup, does it need to be a dry lot...or can there be grass and weeds? I have a 10 acre field and could fence off about 1/3 of it. The section I'm thinking about has a very steep hill, so she'd get quite a workout. This is just an idea...not at all saying I'd do this. It would be a cheaper option than expanding the dry lot, since I have all the materials and equipment. I really wish I lived in a desert, so I could give them as much room to run as possible. 

Can nibbling grass and weeds through the fence be enough of a trigger? The grass here is really stressed, since its been quite cold and we haven't gotten enough rain. Heck...I'm still blanketing my horses at night. I think the limited grass nibbling is a more likely trigger, since the hay I'm feeding is a rather low calorie hay. 

Would 10 grams of magnesium really be appropriate for a 300lb mini? 

Why is soaking the hooves in cold water appropriate? I thought that IR can cause poor circulation and putting the hooves in cold water would cause vasoconstriction. 


Re: How to find things in the ECIR Group. Save this post.

Suzanne Mansolilli

Hi--I'm just catching up reading yesterday's daily digest and came upon these posts about adding to the Pergolide database, Prascend experiences and navigating the website -- all things that are on my list of things to do -- and am trying to save the posts to my files, and for the life of me I can't figure out how to save a post.  Help, please!!


Western Colorado 2014

Re: Jasper's Heaves keep flaring Up

corrine haffner


Thank you Dr kellon, i had some Equi tussin for my mare,so i gave jasper a dose seems to help with coughing.
He is a little more better today,not coughing as much breathing is real close to normal. His temp was normal this  morning,will check again tonight at feeding time.

He's extremely sore footed and very stiff moving seems to help if i hand walk him for 5 minutes going his  pace very slow. 

Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014


Re: Natural Foods

Kathy Brinkerhoff



I would think with all the energy, time and conviction you have put into defending your supplementation of 1/2 oz. of Bio Star, which by your own description is a small amount of mostly blue green algae with peels and seeds in it to keep it from being blown away, you might consider putting the same effort into balancing Ginger's diet.


You have been an active EC/IR Member since June, 2014.  You are obviously aware that Diet is key to Ginger's recovery and well being; enough so that, in fact, you signed up for the NRC + Course.  So what gives??  Why not just read the materials and balance her diet and quit burning up your time on defending this product. To use Bio Star or not is, of course, your choice, but it appears that you are now locked onto it as the key to Ginger’s future success regardless of the actual analysis/contribution and any other factors that may be at or come into play in Ginger's health.  I really hope I am wrong about my observation.




Kathy Brinkerhoff


SE/WI  10/12


Re: Natural Foods

Nancy C

Many points missed again, Beverly, but by all means, let's carry on.

As Dr Kellon pointed out yesterday one ounce of freeze dried can be a lot  more potent.  What is the total esc and starch in this product?

What is the WEIGHT of your Tablespoon please?

I've used spirulina for years.  It is very much more dense that other powders. So how MUCH spirulina - by weight - is in one freeze dried ounce, please?  I was feeding 20 grams twice a day.  Does your product have an equivalent amount for a pony?  Say 10 grams twice a day?

You put any amount of spirulina in anything, and it will turn very dark green.

My product was properly packaged.

Recommend you calculate just how much synergy you get in a 27 gram serving of these antioxidants.

Glutamine (min): 1.058%, Aspartic Acid (min): 0.793%, Alanine (min): 0.779%, Arginine (min): 0.615%, Threonine (min): 0.562%, Tyrosine (min): 0.536%, Valine (min): 0.535%, Lysine (min): 0.518%, Leucine (min): 0.515%, Isoleucine (min): 0.421%, Phenylalanine (min): 0.396%, Glycine (min): 0.379%, Serine (min): 0.238%, Proline (min): 0.238%, Histidine (min): 0.209%, Tryptophane (min): 0.178%, Methionine (min): 0.146%, Cystine (min): 0.125%

It is not much. For example it is recommended a full size horse gets 22 grams of  L-Glutamine a day, when needed. A powerful anti-oxidant but most horses do not need to go through the extra expense once teh diet is balanced.

Your product at a full 27 gram serving gives...let's see...27 X 1.058% = 0.28566. Really?

Not very much.  Would someone check my math please?

Dr Kellon, is there anything about synergy other than marketing, please?


Happy Fourth everyone in the USA.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.…/program-schedule/guest-speakers

---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

To answer the weight question:
Optimum EQ is primarily blue green algae. It is extremely dark green.
The tiny bits of dried veggies, fruits and nuts give it a blending base
and provide something you can lift with a little scoop without it
blowing away.

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