Date   

Buttercup diet help please

Pamela Bramell
 

Could somebody please help me?  I have to get enough calories in Butters based on feed only.  She is quidding as she has no back teeth. Vet wanted her on chopped hay, bought that and she is still quidding that, don't think she's getting very much from it.  I can't weigh what she leaves because it's all quids.  I am currently feeding r/s/r beet pulp, soy hull pellets, ODTB and TC 30%, along with minerals/flax all wet down into a slop.  With her teeth the way they are, she ends up dropping some of that too.  


Buttercup is an extremely hard keeper in the winter.  Vet scored her body at 3.5.  She had lost weight in the last 3 or 4 weeks when she started seriously quidding her hay.  Vet taped her (said they are only a guideline) and said she needs to gain another 60 lbs or so.  Given the teeth issue, it's going to have to come from all feed.  I am able to use any of the above in any combination.  Can also get TC senior, though don't want to use a lot of that as she's IR.  Waiting for ACTH/leptin/insulin blood results from last weeks vet visit.


I am so sad between Buttercup and Frosty that I just can't even wrap my head around the diet thing.  Really, after every thing I have been through with this pony it may come down to her dang teeth being the final straw. I can't feed three times a day every day.  I can separate her and leave her feed out.  Assuming my other sassy pony doesn't bust through the fence and eat Butters feed.  Could somebody please have some mercy on me and come up with something?  She weighed in about 735.  Vet said ideal would be 800#, but she had laminitis again about 4 months ago.  Feed company sent hog finisher pellets instead of  soy hull pellets and they look the same.  Fed her a full 50lb bag before I realized it.  Vet said she's okay under 800# until her hooves heal again.  Can you say another 8 months or so?  Oh my gosh.  Can somebody get me started in some direction please?  


Maybe the kindest thing for her is to go on as well????  I am thinking of trying to get weight on her and maintain it.  If no steady results by October, then I will likely have to lay her to rest as well.  I can't let her starve slowly.  


Pam in VA

Story/Frosty/Butters/Shaqiraj

12/10

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/buttercup%20pam/



Re: Help With Horse Not Eating Anything Appropriate

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hi Rebecca,

Thanks for including Dutch's case history link - helps a lot. No problem with your posting etiquette.

From the current blood work results, Dutch is extremely IR/severe risk for founder as well as being positive for PPID. You can plug his numbers into the IR calculator here:

http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html

Need to get back to the basics here(DDT/E) by instituting an tight, mineral balanced, low sugar/starch diet to manage the IR and get his PPID under control with the correct dose of pergolide (Prascend). The PPID is almost certainly another driving force in the continuing IR issues but from the leptin results Dutch is IR at baseline. One of the hardest parts of helping our special needs horses is wrapping our heads around the changes we need to make in our daily practices. Our attitude is almost as important as the changes themselves. Think of Dutch as a diabetic child who depends on you to keep him healthy and sound. He doesn't know what is/isn't good for him so you need to resolve that things have changed and that the "dangerous foods" are no longer an option. Period. Put your entire herd on a mineral balanced diet - that way there is no more temptation available to anyone and all will benefit. Plus it makes your life easier to only have one set of hay/feed/supplements to give to everyone.

DIAGNOSIS: Do you know where the blood work was sent? The leptin had to be Cornell but I do not recognize the lab normal ranges for the other tests. The glucose is right at the upper top limit, which is already higher than the 100ml/dl that is "safe" - this means he is bordering on crossing into frank diabetes, not just insulin resistance. Insulin at 61.3iU/ml is more than 6 times the reading of a healthy, non-IR horse. Strict diet management is the key to controlling IR and to keeping him from foundering again.

In June, you would want to see an ACTH reading in the mid-normal range as that is the time of year when it is at its lowest. The 6.5pmol is more than double where it should be for that time of year based on your lab normals. When converted to the more familiar pg/ml, the result is 45.45pg/ml. Your vet was right to start him on Prascend (pergolide). We recommend titrating up to the prescribed dose by starting at .25mg for 4 days, then going to .5mg for 4 days, then .75mg for 4 days then 1mg. Because Dutch is picky to begin with, titrating is even more important. It sounds as if he is experiencing "pergolide veil" symptoms, where they temporarily go off feed, act a bit blah in general. Adding the adaptogen APF can help enormously to counteract this effect. It is manufactured by Auburn Labs and is available from many local tack/feed stores and online:

http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html

DIET: Is the hay you are currently feeding the same as the one you have the analysis posted for? If so, you should be soaking it as it is just barely squeaking in under the 10% total for s/s. Protein and iron are also very high, which can exacerbate IR. That would be one step to reduce the overalls/s in the diet. No grass at all - short, stressed grass is some of the worst for high sugar content. Cut out the carrots for treats. Dry roasted peanuts in the shell, celery, Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy cubes are safe treats to try if you really need a treat. TC Lite has an average s/s total of 9.3% but that is not a guaranteed figure and can vary by 15% (their figures) up or down. It also has added iron, not a good idea for an IR horse in general. A possible alternative would be the Stabul 1 feed, manufactured by Anderson/Nuzu Feed. It's available thru Tractor Supply stores as a special order item. Also available from My Best Horse in CA.

http://www.nuzufeed.com/7550%20Stabul.html

Most horses like the taste so would make a good carrier for his supplements.

Dutch's history says he is at least 50lbs overweight and has a cresty neck. He should be receiving 1.5%-2% of his ideal body weight in safe feed per day. This means for an 800lb horse he would need between 12-16lbs per day, divided into at least 4 feedings. It appears that he now receives about 10.75 lbs per day - is that correct? Starvation will only make matters worse as the body goes into a "lock-down" mode to preserve calories.

His salt needs aren't being met at only 1tsp per day. He'd need 1.5 TBS for maintenance, more if sweating and working. Salt deficiency leads to a decrease in the thirst mechanism, which will lead to dehydration and that can be a cause for colic. If he wont eat more salt in his bucket feed, some can be syringed in or can be sprinkled on dampened hay. Same with his other minerals.

Trim: You mentioned he had foundered, with 6* rotation in the RF. Encourage you to post pictures of his feet and body so that a second pair of eyes can take a look and see if the trim is optimal. It is often not. Here's the link to taking good pix:

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

These would get put into an album in the PHOTOS section of ECHistory8.

Can certainly understand being concerned about another colic episode. The best preventatives are consuming  plenty of forage on a trickle-thru basis (soaked hay in haynets), maintaining hydration (enough salt to encourage plentiful water consumption) and regular exercise (turnout, formal work).

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support team

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Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

Thanks for your reply. I have been keeping tabs on the equi analysis's that are posted from Mtn Sunrise for their timothy pellets that I feed Jesse,. The last analysis was similar to what I used for balancing, and kathlleen stated that  a new horse tech custom mix was not indicated.  Mtn Sunrise told me they will be posting a new analysis shortly. When I get it, I will send it to Kathleen to see if I need to revise my Horsetech mix..  thanks. lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8

 




Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lorna Cane
 


Ok,in English this time:

>We have had several wells in our area go dry, or else start pumping up mud, etc.


Let's continue  further discussion of wells and water over on the Horsekeeping List.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Help With Horse Not Eating Anything Appropriate

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Rebecca,

Sorry to hear that Dutch is giving you feed challenges. 

I am giving you a link to the IR calculator for you to plug in his numbers.  As you suspect it shows he is Severely IR.  IR Calculator

 


I think you have done nice job of updating your CH so it is easy to access Dutch's info.

Is the hay he is currently eating analyzed?  You mention feeders are they for the hay or for the hard feed?  I know that you did a very nice job of balancing your diet when I helped you so I know you are aware of which feeds are appropriate for Dutch and how to balance his diet according to activity level, etc.

How long has he been back on the 1 mg of Prascend?  Did your vet suggest testing him again at 3 or 4 weeks?

Where was his blood sent for his ACTH test?  What was the lab range?

If I am understanding correctly, Dutch will not eat his supplements in any carrier now regardless of whether or not he is on Prascend, but will eat his or hay, small treats, senior or light feed,  is that correct?  

I am sure one of the moderators will weigh in with more questions and suggestions.

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12


 




Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jenilee,

Thanks-you for the kind words.

I'll get mark-ups for you in the next day or so and will privately email you the CEMT's info.

I am a barefoot trimmer and have had 4 IR/PPID horses in my care over the past 10 years. I joined the ECIR list in 2005 to help care for my first PPID diagnosed horse and have this list to thank for all the best, up-to-date info available on treating PPID and managing IR. As a bonus, it's increased my knowledge of the hoof and of horse keeping in general - another win.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Time to increase prascend?

ferne fedeli
 

We have had several wells in our area go dry, or else start pumping up mud, etc.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed, as ours has been just fine so far.  Trying to conserve as best we can.  Bought a timer for the faucet we use to fill the water container in the dry lot, as I was forever leaving it to overflow for a few minutes!!!  The timer really works well!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


>  My barn uses well water so water is plenty available.

Sadly,that's no guarantee.Wells have been known to run dry in times of drought. They need to get their water from somewhere.





Horses got into feed

Ellen and Chance in MO
 

I tried to search the messages but couldn't come up with a good answer to my dilemma.


Background:  Yesterday, one of my horses got out of his stall and let the other two out into the main aisle of the barn.  They found a bag of Stabul 1 feed I had left there (my horrible mistake) and between them, ate about 22-25 lbs. of the feed.  I believe one horse (bottom of the herd) got none or very little, but when I went out to feed in the evening, the other two were "sharing" the bag. 


I weighted what was left (about 28 lbs.) and estimate that there was another 2 - 3 lbs. scattered on (and ground into) the dirt floor.  Worst case - one horse (compensated IR) ate most of the missing feed.  Best case - all three had a portion of the feed.  Most likely - the two more dominant horses ate most of it.


Since Stabul 1 is under 10% sugar and starch, I decided the situation was similar to them getting into the stack of tested hay.  They are already stressed by severe heat so I chose not to call the vet and subject them to being tubed to add mineral oil - stressing them even further. 


Currently:  They seem fine now, after 16 hours but it's hard to tell how "hot" their feet are in this weather.  Digital pulses are not "bounding" but also hard to feel as they are constantly twitching from flys that love the hot humid weather.


Long way to the question - How long before I can be sure the episode is not going to cause laminitis?


Thank you.

Ellen and Chance in MO

Member since 2005    


Alcar vs AAKG

 

I have been trying to search files and conversations for the difference in using Jherb with Alcar vs. Jherb with AAKG.   When do you use which combination?  What is the difference in the combinations.  


I have read the Pain Relief Alternatives to Bute and Banamine document but it does not mention Alcar.  


Thank you. 

Debora 

NRC grad 


Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Good morning, Lavinia,

Yes, I understand that the super rockers are not being recommended.  It makes sense, as well.  I would like to take you up on getting some mark-ups for Hucks hoof work recommendations.  I am also interested in the Equine Massage contact information.

I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge you have regarding the hoof and its structures, as well as everything else.  How did you become so knowledgeable in all of these areas?

Thanks again,
Jenilee and Huck
NY, Oct 2013


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lorna Cane
 


>I updated CH today.. thanks..

 Signature , and link ?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

I updated CH today.. thanks..


Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jenilee,

Thanks for adding the older xrays as they help with understanding how long issues may have been present. Unfortunately, they show toes that are too long, thin soles, likely under run heels and significant side bone (which indicates that there have likely been hoof imbalance issues for a long time). The bony column alignment was broken back in the LF and broken forward in the RF.

In the hind foot photos, the toes are also too long, heels too high and somewhat under run, bars are overgrown. The trim is not optimal so is further compromising Huck's ability to heal. These are extremely common issues that we see on a regular basis. They are so common that they tend to be viewed as "normal". Problem is that normal doesn't necessarily equal healthy and optimal.

Old Macs are a decent protective/riding boot but for the situation you currently have with Huck I don't think they will be the best choice. The inserts that the Soft Rides have are unique as they are a deep gel orthotic and it doesn't really fit into any other style of boot. Have a read here:

https://www.softrideboots.com/#text3

Please note I'm not recommending that you go with the additional rocker bottom for them. You can try looking for some used ones on the Hoof Boot Exchange:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hoofbootexchange/info

Huck might benefit from an appt with a Certified Equine Massage Therapist to get things started. I can give you  the contact info for an excellent individual based in NY state if you are interested.

Perfectly fine to soak hay, drain and feed later.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


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Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Thanks so much for the update - makes my day :)

Exercise is certainly a good addition to an IR horse's schedule. Given how much damage there is/was to the hoof capsule connections, it would be good if you could encourage him to take it a bit easier for the time being as you don't want to have him cause more damage in his over-exuberance at feeling so much better. The positive thing is that these little guys tend to rebound much more quickly once the trim is heading in the right direction because you don't have gravity working against you. He could probably use some stretching exercises to loosen up his right side as it sounds like he can contract that well but not release/stretch/extend it so that would make it difficult for him to travel to the left. His LF had more pathology in the xrays as well so when traveling to the left, it takes more of the weight and might be more uncomfortable.

Being stiff in the morning makes sense and is probably a combination of factors. Payback for the shenanigans during the day coupled with the likelihood he doesn't move around as much over night, may be resting lying down for an extended period, so is stiff when he gets up and about first thing until the circulation gets going and everything loosens up. That he appears to work out of it is a very good sign.

Keep up the good work - hugs to the little imp.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8
 



 


Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Lavinia.

Thank you for your recommendations.  I have sent my farrier an email, as we are trying to get a game plan finalized.  I have also added the x-rays from 2012/11/06, where no rotation was evident.  Suggestions for where to look for massage techniques for upper shoulders and forearms?  I have Mac boots for him already.  The Soft Ride boots are what I need though right?  I haven't checked into Macs site yet to see if they make any sort of wedge/ frog  support inserts for them.  Maybe they're two different types of boot altogether, just didn't want to make the investment twice, so to speak.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/777169390

On another note,  I have an event next weekend where I will have to have someone else stop by to feed for me.  Is it ok to soak hay prior, drain and leave ready to be fed out?  There would be a couple of hours between drain and feeding. 

Thanks again,

Jenilee and Huck
NY, Oct 2013

 


Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Good to hear the fever appears to have broken - a relief for both of you.

More good news from this farrier.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

Glad i asked about the pergolide i wouldn't of gave it other wise on monday,he should be ok then hay nets is empty by 7am most days. He was fever free last night finally,heaves are an issue once again hot and high humidity so far,lung EQ is keeping it from being a crisis.

Yes new farrier sound promising should have appt first week of august,he knows jasper is extremely sore so said he'll take it slow,an give jasper breaks when needed. He doesn't carve out sole all the time said only when needed and only take what needs to come out and no more.  

I sent him xray from may 5th he even saw the distal sinking and thin soles,i said nothing about either. Last farrier failed to see that and continued to carve sole out to make concavity. 

ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lorna Cane
 


>  My barn uses well water so water is plenty available.

Sadly,that's no guarantee.Wells have been known to run dry in times of drought. They need to get their water from somewhere.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Yes, keeping hay in front of him as much as possible is ideal. Use the double hay nets and as long as he hasn't gone for more than 4 hours without anything that's fine. No supplements til after the blood draw but YES, give him his pergolide as you want to know how the meds are controlling the ACTH.

I'll get some mark-ups for you. The new farrier sounds promising - keeping fingers crossed.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lj,

Agree with the vet that the pergolide (Prascend) dose should be increased as Jesse is already above high normal and the seasonal rise period hasn't officially hit yet (although PPID horses can have an extended rise period).

If this was one of my horses, I would titrate him to the 2mg dose then continue up to at least 2.5mg as his ACTH is going to continue to rise even with the increased meds because of the seasonal influence. Your goal is to continue to control the increase as much as possible. Test again in mid-Sept to reassess.

Insulin/glucose are likely being influenced by the rising ACTH levels so controlling the ACTH will also help with the IR.

Diet-wise: the timothy pellets don't have a guaranteed analysis for every batch - neither mineral nor  s/s - so they are one area where things could be tightened up. The second rinse of the r/s/r of bp is so that any sugars that are soaked out are then rinsed away. Skipping the second rinse lowers the value of the soaking as residual sugars may still be sticking to the bp. You don't see dissolved sugar - the cloudiness/darkness of the soak water is dirt and pigments released from the bp.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8


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