Date   

Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Good morning, Lavinia,

Yes, I understand that the super rockers are not being recommended.  It makes sense, as well.  I would like to take you up on getting some mark-ups for Hucks hoof work recommendations.  I am also interested in the Equine Massage contact information.

I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge you have regarding the hoof and its structures, as well as everything else.  How did you become so knowledgeable in all of these areas?

Thanks again,
Jenilee and Huck
NY, Oct 2013


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lorna Cane
 


>I updated CH today.. thanks..

 Signature , and link ?


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


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Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

I updated CH today.. thanks..


Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jenilee,

Thanks for adding the older xrays as they help with understanding how long issues may have been present. Unfortunately, they show toes that are too long, thin soles, likely under run heels and significant side bone (which indicates that there have likely been hoof imbalance issues for a long time). The bony column alignment was broken back in the LF and broken forward in the RF.

In the hind foot photos, the toes are also too long, heels too high and somewhat under run, bars are overgrown. The trim is not optimal so is further compromising Huck's ability to heal. These are extremely common issues that we see on a regular basis. They are so common that they tend to be viewed as "normal". Problem is that normal doesn't necessarily equal healthy and optimal.

Old Macs are a decent protective/riding boot but for the situation you currently have with Huck I don't think they will be the best choice. The inserts that the Soft Rides have are unique as they are a deep gel orthotic and it doesn't really fit into any other style of boot. Have a read here:

https://www.softrideboots.com/#text3

Please note I'm not recommending that you go with the additional rocker bottom for them. You can try looking for some used ones on the Hoof Boot Exchange:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/hoofbootexchange/info

Huck might benefit from an appt with a Certified Equine Massage Therapist to get things started. I can give you  the contact info for an excellent individual based in NY state if you are interested.

Perfectly fine to soak hay, drain and feed later.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


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Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Tori,

Thanks so much for the update - makes my day :)

Exercise is certainly a good addition to an IR horse's schedule. Given how much damage there is/was to the hoof capsule connections, it would be good if you could encourage him to take it a bit easier for the time being as you don't want to have him cause more damage in his over-exuberance at feeling so much better. The positive thing is that these little guys tend to rebound much more quickly once the trim is heading in the right direction because you don't have gravity working against you. He could probably use some stretching exercises to loosen up his right side as it sounds like he can contract that well but not release/stretch/extend it so that would make it difficult for him to travel to the left. His LF had more pathology in the xrays as well so when traveling to the left, it takes more of the weight and might be more uncomfortable.

Being stiff in the morning makes sense and is probably a combination of factors. Payback for the shenanigans during the day coupled with the likelihood he doesn't move around as much over night, may be resting lying down for an extended period, so is stiff when he gets up and about first thing until the circulation gets going and everything loosens up. That he appears to work out of it is a very good sign.

Keep up the good work - hugs to the little imp.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8
 



 


Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Lavinia.

Thank you for your recommendations.  I have sent my farrier an email, as we are trying to get a game plan finalized.  I have also added the x-rays from 2012/11/06, where no rotation was evident.  Suggestions for where to look for massage techniques for upper shoulders and forearms?  I have Mac boots for him already.  The Soft Ride boots are what I need though right?  I haven't checked into Macs site yet to see if they make any sort of wedge/ frog  support inserts for them.  Maybe they're two different types of boot altogether, just didn't want to make the investment twice, so to speak.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/777169390

On another note,  I have an event next weekend where I will have to have someone else stop by to feed for me.  Is it ok to soak hay prior, drain and leave ready to be fed out?  There would be a couple of hours between drain and feeding. 

Thanks again,

Jenilee and Huck
NY, Oct 2013

 


Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Good to hear the fever appears to have broken - a relief for both of you.

More good news from this farrier.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia

Glad i asked about the pergolide i wouldn't of gave it other wise on monday,he should be ok then hay nets is empty by 7am most days. He was fever free last night finally,heaves are an issue once again hot and high humidity so far,lung EQ is keeping it from being a crisis.

Yes new farrier sound promising should have appt first week of august,he knows jasper is extremely sore so said he'll take it slow,an give jasper breaks when needed. He doesn't carve out sole all the time said only when needed and only take what needs to come out and no more.  

I sent him xray from may 5th he even saw the distal sinking and thin soles,i said nothing about either. Last farrier failed to see that and continued to carve sole out to make concavity. 

ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lorna Cane
 


>  My barn uses well water so water is plenty available.

Sadly,that's no guarantee.Wells have been known to run dry in times of drought. They need to get their water from somewhere.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup




Re: ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Corinne,

Yes, keeping hay in front of him as much as possible is ideal. Use the double hay nets and as long as he hasn't gone for more than 4 hours without anything that's fine. No supplements til after the blood draw but YES, give him his pergolide as you want to know how the meds are controlling the ACTH.

I'll get some mark-ups for you. The new farrier sounds promising - keeping fingers crossed.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lj,

Agree with the vet that the pergolide (Prascend) dose should be increased as Jesse is already above high normal and the seasonal rise period hasn't officially hit yet (although PPID horses can have an extended rise period).

If this was one of my horses, I would titrate him to the 2mg dose then continue up to at least 2.5mg as his ACTH is going to continue to rise even with the increased meds because of the seasonal influence. Your goal is to continue to control the increase as much as possible. Test again in mid-Sept to reassess.

Insulin/glucose are likely being influenced by the rising ACTH levels so controlling the ACTH will also help with the IR.

Diet-wise: the timothy pellets don't have a guaranteed analysis for every batch - neither mineral nor  s/s - so they are one area where things could be tightened up. The second rinse of the r/s/r of bp is so that any sugars that are soaked out are then rinsed away. Skipping the second rinse lowers the value of the soaking as residual sugars may still be sticking to the bp. You don't see dissolved sugar - the cloudiness/darkness of the soak water is dirt and pigments released from the bp.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8



Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jenilee,

Thanks for adding all the xrays and the pictures of Huck. Yes, it would be helpful if you could add the first set of xrays as well. Here is the link to the album:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/777169390

If you include that when you post it helps us get answers for you faster.

Agree with you that his feet are extremely long all around. At this point, his muscles have shortened to accommodate the incredibly steep angle that his foot is in so he will need alot of massage of the shoulders and upper forelegs in order to help him lengthen into a more appropriate hoof configuration.

The angles he is currently in are placing all his weight onto the leading edge of his coffin bones, creating a spear-like effect on the sole, thinning and bruising it. This is also going to lead to eventual de-mineralization of the tip of the CB as it is not meant to be the weight-bearing structure of the horse. The hoof-pastern axis is broken forward, which means that the bony column isn't in correct alignment, causing more pressure on the joints spaces, which will lead to arthritic changes within the joints.

Given the way the foot is trimmed, with the toes too long and the heels too high, he doesn't have much of an option but to be walking on his toes. The longer he remains in these clogs and wedges, the more damage done. I totally agree with your farrier that the clogs/wedges need to be removed. Soft Ride boots would be a good transitional approach as they have a wedged pad with a frog support in them.

The approach I'd recommend:

1. Remove the appliances.
2. Get the trim correct, with heels lowered and toes backed appropriately so the hoof capsule correctly hugs and supports the internal structures. I can provide you with some mark-ups if you'd like.
3. Use the Soft Ride boots (with gel pad inserts un-adjusted) in conjunction with intense massage therapy to get his soft tissues to be able to relax into the correct form again. Recommend using Gold Bond powder (or generic equivalent) in the boots to help with moisture/bacterial/fungal control.
4. Cut the gel insert pads to level instead of wedged once Huck is able to again relax into a normal stance.
5. Start alternating barefoot time with time in Soft Rides, increasing barefoot time as he is able.

I do not believe you will be able to alternate from being in a boot with the Super Rocker and barefoot by just removing the boot for a short period of time as that is too much of a drastic change too quickly. Huck will likely respond by just standing on tip-toe as he cannot stretch/lengthen soft tissue that quickly without risk of injury. By then putting him back into the jacked-up boot, it just reinforces the already-too-tight stance as being the normal one. Need to gradually but steadily introduce a slightly lengthened position as normal. Then progress another notch every few days to a week, as he accommodates the previous change. Plus, his trim will need to be tweaked at least wekkly to maintain a correct position or you lose everything that was gained by the time the next trim time rolls around. This is why we generally recommend boots and pads over nailed/glued on appliances - to be able to easily access the hoof for the frequent tweaks necessary to regain and maintain realignment.

Definitely sounds as if the diet changes are helping - they can sometimes make a noticeable, positive change overnight.

Great that you have had blood work and hay analysis done.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

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ECHistory8

 


Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

thanks for your reply ,. Jesse gets ZERO treats. and noone gives him any treats either.   And I will revert back to r/s/r bp and see if things change.. I take this shortcut bec it isnt a cake walk when I prep the r/s/r bp.. some of the bp leaks out, etc, and it is heavy to lift the bucket to dump. But I will correct starting today..  My barn uses well water so water is plenty available.. lj friedman san diego nov 2014

ECHistory8

 




Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

One comment about the amount of bp I feed  2.4#.  First, this feeding is pretty much a 4th meal.. as he gets fed 3 x a day with timothy pellets. Also, I feel, that bp might have some colic preventative properties.. ( no science to back this up, just hearsay.  ) And he eats it slowly.  a bit slower than he eats his pellets.   lj friedman san diego nov 2014
ECHistory8

 




Re: Time to increase prascend?

Nancy C
 

lj

The best you can do to help get a handle on insulin is get the ACTH within  range.

Can't remember if you tested for iron overload, and it sounds like the CH is not up to date so won't take the time to go there right now.

Hafta run. Sorry.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. Learn more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8.
http://nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers






---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

NO,  Jesse gets  aprox  18# of timothy pellets, 2.4# of bp and his horse tech flax basd supps.. Nothing else.,   Beginning this past Monday, he is now tack walked for 30 minutes, 6 days a week.  


Re: Time to increase prascend?

lj friedman
 

NO,  Jesse gets  aprox  18# of timothy pellets, 2.4# of bp and his horse tech flax basd supps.. Nothing else.,   Beginning this past Monday, he is now tack walked for 30 minutes, 6 days a week.  


ACTH Testing Monday Have Questions

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


Monday morning vet comes to draw blood for ACTH & IR testing. So doe's jasper need to have hay to eat up till blood draw? Also do i wait on giving him his supplements and pergolide till after blood draw?  He normally gets his pergolide at 7 am so after 10 am is 3 hours later then normal is that going to be an issue??


Also his pain level has been right at a 31/2 most days very sore feet that seem to be getting more sore as time goes on.  Lavinia i need some markups on pics from july 5 & 6th have new farrier i'am giving a try, he's willing to trim according to markups.  He's also fine with me also working on jasper feet in between visits,unlike last farrier.


Thanks,

Corrine & jasper

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8



http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Cass,

Lj is feeding and  rinsing Jesse's  Beet Pulp by his choice.  He referred to skipping the last rinse as a "short cut " he was using and wondered if missing this last step was contributing to Jesse's recent blood work and his vet's comments to "control Jesse's IR" with no mention of his concerns for water conservation.  I am very aware of your extraordinary conditions in CA.  I have relatives who live in the SF area and I help owners who live in CA with their horses' diets.  If water conservation was Lj's concern, which I may have missed in his post,  than perhaps he should consider feeding less than 2.4# 's of BP....say 1/2#  or find another carrier that does not need rinsing for his supplement carrier.  In the past,  I have personally helped Lj with his diet for Jesse and we have discussed alternatives to beet pulp.  Lj prefers to feed beet pulp in this amount and has outlined his reasons in numerous posts on this Board and in emails to me.

I do apologize if my post seemed insensitive to the drought in CA as that certainly was not my intent.

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Re: Time to increase prascend?

 

Hi, Kathy.
If you don't live in the drought-striken west, you probably cannot appreciate how severe the California drought is and how strongly people object to rinsing of horse feed - whether hay or BP - in these circumstances. You can call it a shortcut, but under such conditions, it may be all that can reasonably be done with the resources at hand. IMO a better solution where drought is so severe is to use alternative feeds that don't require rinsing. I write this respectfully as a reminder that we are struggling with extraordinary  conditions out here. 

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

 It seems to this observer that whenever Jesse is doing well you start taking "short cuts" or ask about taking "short cuts" in his diet, etc.   You have done an excellent job with Jesse when you follow the recommendations of the Board and Dr. Kellon.........please, "stay the course" and don't veer off into short cut land which results in problems.


Re: Time to increase prascend?

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Lj,

I took a look at Jesse's CH and is this  info all up to date?

11/14 8 oz. of TC Omega Flax
01/15 15.5 pounds of Sunrise Timothy Pellets
04/15  2.4 #'s of r/s/r Beet Pulp

03/15 HT Custom    Are you still supplementing with this same custom from HT?

Exercise: 20 minutes round pen work.  5  days per week?


Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12












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