Date   

Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

You said: Thankfully Dr. Kellon deemed a trial of pergolide worthwhile and she immed improved but it took some months to find the right dose to fully control her insulin.  THAT IS DURING THAT TIME THAT I TRIED THE ODTBC & HER INSULIN SPIKED.  It was well-after the seasonal rise and she was not on enough pergolide yet.  However, when i put her back on soaked hay only, the insulin stabilized.
++++++++++++++++

One question....

I know you have taken many insulin readings.  During the ODTB Cube insulin spike with your mare - fall and winter it sounds like - did you take ambient temps into consideration?


Take a peak at Beau's CH. Not updated (GUILTY!) but you should get the idea.

ECHistory6

 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: To diagnose IR, the ECIR Group recommends a non-fasted, simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin and the use of VA Polytechnic Proxies.

Early bird expires Wednesday

Guest Speakers





---In EquineCushings@..., <Twinoats@...> wrote :



Jesse labs how high should I go?

lj friedman
 

             ACTH   Glucose      Insulin    Leptin


9/15/15   62          92              59          4.73

7/20/15   47         110             55          4.26

5/04/15   32          86             32           2.86

3/02/15   46          97              36          3.18


Notes:

1mg prascend started 1/1/15.   Increased to 1.5mg on 5/1/15.  Increased to 2.0mg on 7/25/17.  Increased to 2.5mg on 8/23.  Increased to 3.0mg on 8/27 and switched from 3- 1.0 mg prascend tablets to 1- 3.0 mg compounded capsule.  9/21 . added 1.0mg prascend tablet to 3.0mg compounded capsule for 4.0 total.

How much higher should I go at this time? and what time frame?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014 (will update ch now)        


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Hi Nancy,

Here's more clarification, drawing quotes from your prev post (please note that if I use CAPS it is merely for emphasis)

-----------------------------------
....."Every time this comes up I am still left with the same question.

Did her insulin come down because she had better controlled ACTH or because she got off the Cubes.  I don't think that has been separated out."....

>>>  Ok, a quick synopsis of Pinky:  diagnosed IR in late summer 2013, a full year before I found this group.  I was able to manage her by soaking her grass hay when her insulin came back high, and eventually found a chopped grass hay made by Lucerne Farms ("Premium Hay") that repeatedly tested at 6-7.5% ESC+Starch (although bc i didn't know better I was using NSC as my "high number").  I would put her on the soaked hay for about a week, would see a visual "drop" in weight (esp crest), and then ease her back onto the unsoaked Premium Hay until the next high insulin test.  In retrospect I think I got her thru the fall of 2013 (with as yet undiagnosed PPID) because she was working HARD -- hunter paced every weekend, 10+ miles each, etc.

Spring 2014 -- same as above, not having as much trouble with insulin.  Still in heavy training.

Summer 2014 -- did well on the same above Premium Hay with some added Hi-Fiber Gold and Chaffhaye (b/c she needed calories for high speed work -- remember, I still hadn't found ECIR group yet).  Mare was a superstar at Fitch's Corner, actually won our division(!!) which was mid-July, 2014.  At Millbrook (last weekend of Aug) is when she started going downhill (and that was only evident by her refusing a jump).  By the Championships in mid Sept, she had completely crashed metabolically.  Looking back, I now understand that it was her undiagnosed PPID that was worsening the IR even though she was working about as had as an amateur-owned horse can.  Her insulin drawn right after the Champs was 130mg/dL so I immed put her on soaked hay only.  She stabilized, as she had done everytime in the past that I put her on soaked hay only.  However, as the rest of Sept wore on and Oct began, she became increasingly lethargic and depressed no matter what I fed her (remember, still not diagnosed PPID).  I still kept her in full work but she was not right -- everyone told me that it was just her age catching up to her.  We only did one more event at the end of Sept (she finished double clear but it was a struggle).  By this point I had discovered ECIR and every "safe" food I tried sent her right back into crisis (b/c of her still undiagnosed PPID; at this point I still thought she was "just IR").  While I was busy reading ECIR info Pinky got worse and worse (while on soaked hay only) until one day in mid-Oct her legs blew up, she had digital pulses, and was stumbling badly.  I had radiographs done by my local vet b/c I was so worried about laminitis (note: this mare is extremely stoic & was never lame).  I floated the possibility of PPID with my vet as a rule-out of the refractory hyperinsulinemia and somehow the subject of consulting with Dr Kellon came up b/c Pinky did NOT look anything like a "Cushing's horse".  Furthermore, her ACTH drawn late Sept 2014 was only 36pg/mL.  Thankfully Dr. Kellon deemed a trial of pergolide worthwhile and she immed improved but it took some months to find the right dose to fully control her insulin.  THAT IS DURING THAT TIME THAT I TRIED THE ODTBC & HER INSULIN SPIKED.  It was well-after the seasonal rise and she was not on enough pergolide yet.  However, when i put her back on soaked hay only, the insulin stabilized.  THAT'S THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE!  By that evidence I understood that her PPID wasn't controlled and I increased the perg., tried the cubes again, same result (deduction:  Pinky must be extremely sensitive to ESC&starch over 6%, the batch of cubes I had at that time must've been betw 6%-10%).  Once I got her up to 2mg pergolide by January, she was able to eat the ODTBC no problem, BECAUSE HER PPID WAS FINALLY CONTROLLED.  As I mentioned before, I put her all the way up to 2% BW of cubes through the harshest of winter (living out) and her insulin behaved and she felt great under saddle! 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

....."As discussed in other recent posts, the symptoms of uncontrolled IR and uncontrolled PPID overlap. I kow you know that.

>>> Yes :)

....."Improvement of foot comfort can come in a matter of days from increased dosages of pergolide, just as it can when switching from high ESC&Starch feeds/diet to lower ESC&starch intake. 

>>>> Yes, completely agree, have witnessed both scenarios...

...."As I understand it you did both at the same time.

>>>> No, and that is the crux of the matter.  I did the "cube trial" well-before I had found her target perg. dose.  The scenario was this:  was on 1mg perg, seemed OK, tried weaning her off soaked hay and adding ODTBC, insulin spiked, usual symptoms returned, reverted to soaked hay only, symptoms resolve (I did these observations and changes over weeks at a time; it was not just a day or two; I gave each time a cahance to fully integrate).  I bumped her to 1.5mg.  Tried easing her off soaked and back again onto ODTBC -- same thing happened, sore feet, stumbling, etc  Bumped her up to 2mg perg, gave it a few weeks, tried the cubes and at this point she was fine.  This was done over many weeks betw Nov'14. and midJan'15. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

....."Just to be clear for new people ODTB Cubes are not high ESC&starch adn this report is unusual so it is why we are pulling apart the confounding factors. A process that our founder Robin established as and ECIR keystone so long ago."....

>>>> Yes, absolutely!  Hopefully as i illustrated above, my mare was the "problem", not the cubes.  She's doing great on the cubes NOW THAT HER PPID IS CONTROLLED.  She was just unusually sensitive to ESC+starch being over 6% BEFORE HER PPID WAS CONTROLLED.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

....."My take of Dr Kellon's response to this and my own personal experiences is that diet is critical to controlling IR, but the system can be overwhelmed by uncontrolled diseases driving insulin levels far beyond anything you can control with diet alone.  It takes control of the diseases to control the IR.  If you don't control the disease, no amount of diet tweaking will fix hyperinsulinemia.

....."Just like pergolide will not fix "insulin resistance related to genetic predisposition, obesity, diet or any other nonpituitary cause", diet alone will not fix IR from disease states like PPID.


....."I'm paraphrasing but I think Dr Kellon described it as when ACTH, Lyme, Mare issues, iron overload and other are out of control, no feed will be low enough to control hyperinsulinemia.  You have to address the disease. As you did. 


>>>> Yes, yes and yes, all agreed & understood.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


....."As for your gelding, It would be helpful to see the rest of the diet and well, you know,,,,,a CH."....


>>> Ahh, yes, my gelding...he's a wacky one in so many ways :)  His CH is almost UTD; I've just been waylaid by my own poorly controlled Lyme disease and some epic migraines of late.  :(((  Between the horses and myself, it seems I'm always reading about some affliction or another


--------------------------------------------------------------------


....."In any event, in the last go around, it was suggested that Corrine use soaked hay and the emergency diet if she felt that was the best for Jasper, until he was more stable or at least there was a clearer picture of his dx, 


....."I offer this Kerry, with all respect for the work you have done with your horses.


>>>> Nancy and all, I cannot thank you enough for responding so thoroughly and for putting up with my incessant interloping into this thread.  Im only inserting myself b/c I'm trying to learn and/or understand on a deeper level.  My "wanting to give back" aspect probably could be reined in some ;) but it comes from a good place :))


Thank you a thousand times over,


Kerry in NY

Sept 2014


Sudden sheath swelling on IR/Cushings Baron

 

Hello all:


Would love some ideas on whether or not this is normal in a IR/Cushings horse.  I know that sheath swelling is part of IR and Cushings, but this is a sudden increase in swelling on his sheath.  Pretty large.  He isn't super sensitive on it.


 Hay has been tested with the following values:

Calcium

.20%  .91 g/lb.


Phosphorus

.24%     1.11 g/lb

Magnesium:

.18%  .81 g/lb

Potassium:

1.67%  7.58 g/lb

Sodium

.547%    2.48 g/lb


Anything jump out?    I do add calcium to have a 1.2:1 Calcium:Phosphorus ratio.


Thanks,

Kris and Baron (Grass Valley, Ca)  2005



Look at info on case history with 2015 in red for updated info:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/KrisandBaron/







Y'all are coming to NO Laminitis! 2015, Right?

 

Don't forget to register for NO Laminitis! 2015. The price goes up this Thurs, Sept. 24.

I'm the host for the event (with the assistance of some amazing helpers) and am hoping to have a large contingent of fellow Texans here. Fellow Texans: this conference will not take place in our backyard again anytime soon (if ever), so register today, come on down (or up, or over) to Georgetown in November, and let's show the rest of our ECIR friends some good ol' Texas hospitality.

Those of you unfamiliar with Central Texas may be please to know that temperatures in early November in Georgetown (just north of Austin) are generally in the 70s in the days and the 50s at night. That's some nice conference-going and Central Texas-exploring weather! Add to that the opportunity to hear Dr. Kellon (and all the other amazing presenters) speak; to see Lavinia and Daisy trim live horses; to meet Nancy, and Jaini, and Kathleen and Jannalee (many of whom you've gotten to know so well through this forum), and you just might find NO Laminitis! 2015 to the best investment you've made on behalf of your equine friends in a long time.

I've secured a limited number of reduced -priced hotel rooms (just under 1 1/2 miles from the conference site) and a discount on shuttle service to the hotels from the Austin airport and back  for those of you flying in and not renting a car (although you might really want to get a car so you can do some exploring. While you're not in conference activities. Austin - the Live Music Capital of the World) - is just down the road).

To register for NO Laminitis! 2015 and for info. on lecture topics, speakers, accommodations, SuperShuttle, and general conference info, go to nolaminitis.org.

I look forward to seeing y'all in Georgetown!

Fran, Tinker, Ford, Dancer and Cloudy in Texas
7/2005


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Corrine and Kerry, I'm not piling on. Heaven knows it's taken me years to get things straight in my head, much less get DDT&E dialed in. I know how hard this is to hear when you're already dealing with a host of horse problems and chores. PPID is a moving target.

Dr Kellon said it the best (and this is a crude paraphrase of her actual words that got it through my thick head):  If PPID is uncontrolled, all the dietary interventions in the world will not fix your horse's insulin resistance. 

I'm working on this very problem right now (again!). Diet is tight with tested low S+S hay and balanced minerals. Management is tight in a dry lot. Trim is tight. But my mare's insulin tests at a level that is twice as high as any earlier result. So because  my horse has PPID that is usually poorly controlled, the first order of business is to limit the variables and make sure ACTH is within an acceptable range all day long. When the symptoms won't go away, I know of no way to do that without testing or involving your vet in experimentally adjusting the dose of pergolide (which some are very reluctant to do).

After weeks of temperatures in the 90's and 100's, I more fully appreciate the logistical difficulties of handling spun down plasma for accurate ACTH testing. Keeping a sample at 39 degrees is a practical impossibility for a hard-working vet like mine who leaves the office at 7:30 AM and gets back after 6PM (or 8PM or 9PM). Which is why I bought my own simple centrifuge on Amazon to help out. I know that's extravagant, but around here, $165 for a centrifuge is $100 less than a farm call, shipping and lab testing done with mishandled blood. With an ice bath available at the time of the blood draw, we can spin down the blood here, draw off the plasma, store it in my freezer, and my vet can pick it back up later in the day on the way back to the office/lab. 

I wish both you and your horses all the best.

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12
---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

Every time this comes up I am still left with the same question.

Did her insulin come down because she had better controlled ACTH or because she got off the Cubes.  I don't think that has been separated out. 



Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Hi Kerry & everyone else

Here's the post from lavinia # 196567 this is why i'v put him on all ODTB cubes my hay isn't mineral tested so i decided to go to all cubes for his diet. He's on 6 mg of pergolide don't remember date is in CH ,hasn't been even a week he's been on this dose.
 
I feel i need to stick with current diet whether it's right or wrong i don't know,i know testing current hay isn't worth the hassle. I'am doing the best i can have a good vet, fired the farrier doing jasper's hoofs myself and spend many sleepless nights worrying about jasper. 


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Lorna Cane
 



>>If Jasper (or a theoretical horse) has been definitively diagnosed with IR & PPID and is showing overt clinical signs of IR/PPID (PU/PD, foot soreness, insatiability, etc), and an effective pergolide dose has NOT been determined as yet, then why does the horse in the scenario NOT go on the Emerg Diet of soaked hay, etc, esp if he's showing laminitic symptoms?  Furthermore, why would this horse not STAY on the diet until IR symptoms satisfactorily abate?  That's what Im having trouble understanding. 




  Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 

 






Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Nancy and Lorna (and anyone else who has gotten this far):

Thank you so much for your responses.  I think I cant help my butting in because Im trying to understand a key point to Jasper's scenario. Instead of my anecdotes as evidence, let me instead ask a question, which arose from following Jasper's long history:

If Jasper (or a theoretical horse) has been definitively diagnosed with IR & PPID and is showing overt clinical signs of IR/PPID (PU/PD, foot soreness, insatiability, etc), and an effective pergolide dose has NOT been determined as yet, then why does the horse in the scenario NOT go on the Emerg Diet of soaked hay, etc, esp if he's showing laminitic symptoms?  Furthermore, why would this horse not STAY on the diet until IR symptoms satisfactorily abate?  That's what Im having trouble understanding. 

Also, very importantly, Im in no way saying the cubes are bad--please! no one think Im casting shade on the very useful ODTBCs--they are the foundation of both of my well-controlled IRs' diets at present. The ODTBC are a true godsend!

(Nancy Ill address your finer points under separate cover; I was just so eager to ask my question!  You remarked on several interesting points re: my horses' scenarios and I'd like to learn more with dialog [poor Nancy])

Thx so much,
Kerry in NY
Sept 14

Ps, sorry i could not delete attached past msgs --doing a million things at once


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 21, 2015, at 5:23 PM, threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Hi Kerry

Good caveats.  :-)

Every time this comes up I am still left with the same question.

Did her insulin come down because she had better controlled ACTH or because she got off the Cubes.  I don't think that has been separated out. 

As discussed in other recent posts, the symptoms of uncontrolled IR and uncontrolled PPID overlap. I kow you know that.

Improvement of foot comfort can come in a matter of days from increased dosages of pergolide, just as it can when switching from high ESC&Starch feeds/diet to lower ESC&starch intake. 

As I understand it you did both at the same time.

Just to be clear for new people ODTB Cubes are not high ESC&starch adn this report is unusual so it is why we are pulling apart the confounding factors. A process that our founder Robin established as and ECIR keystone so long ago.

My take of Dr Kellon's response to this and my own personal experiences is that diet is critical to controlling IR, but the system can be overwhelmed by uncontrolled diseases driving insulin levels far beyond anything you can control with diet alone.  It takes control of the diseases to control the IR.  If you don't control the disease, no amount of diet tweaking will fix hyperinsulinemia.

Just like pergolide will not fix "insulin resistance related to genetic predisposition, obesity, diet or any other nonpituitary cause", diet alone will not fix IR from disease states like PPID.


I'm paraphrasing but I think Dr Kellon described it as when ACTH, Lyme, Mare issues, iron overload and other are out of control, no feed will be low enough to control hyperinsulinemia.  You have to address the disease. As you did. 


As for your gelding, It would be helpful to see the rest of the diet and well, you know,,,,,a CH.


In any event, in the last go around, it was suggested that Corrine use soaked hay and the emergency diet if she felt that was the best for Jasper, until he was more stable or at least there was a clearer picture of his dx, 


I offer this Kerry, with all respect for the work you have done with your horses.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available. Guest Speakers





---In EquineCushings@..., <Twinoats@...> wrote :



However, I've observed from direct experience that when my mare's PPID was not controlled, she could not handle the ESC & starch in the cubes in *any* amount fed (even <1lb).  Her insulin normalized only when I found her target dose of pergolide and she consumed the Emergency Diet. Once on the correct pergolide dose for a few weeks, she was able to consume at least 1% BW in ODTBC and even did well on 2% BW thru the hard winter while living out 24/7 and still working (she's on 1% BW at present and doing well).

My IR gelding does well at 0.5% BW (6lbs/day for a 1200-lb horse), but any higher % of BW he gains too much weight and his insulin climbs.  I weigh him monthly at a local equine clinic and any higher than 0.5% BW in cubes and/or a decrease in work sends his insulin into trouble.  If his weight does ever increase, I will decrease the % of cubes.  Luckily, so far, his weight has dropped or held steady at each weighing.



Jacque: Finding my case history file

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Jacque,

Did you see my message to you about giving us the details here,until you get your case history worked out?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196701

 

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 


>>Hello...trying to update my case history files. Can anyone help me find my way?

Thanks much,

Jacque white



 


Re: Reposting(2nd try): ACTH Results Back

Claudia Goodman
 

>>I would love to retest 3 weeks after I reach the 5.5mg, but I will have to see if I can do it financially. 

Stephanie, I also have been trying to get the pergolide dose right during seasonal rise. I tested back in July, and my mare mare had already unexpectedly jumped just beyond the normal range, so I immediately raised her .5mg pergolide to 4.0 mg. I have to make a point of saying no changes in symptoms were at all apparent, which for her is loss of brightness, first and foremost.
 
Tested again at end of August and she continued slightly upward, so I increased dose .5 mg to 4.5, for a few weeks and again to 5.0 mg pergolide. No symptom changes have been seen.

I plan to test her the end of Sept, believing that she is controlled for now, but I do want to see for sure that she stays controlled during the rise, so will test again. My goal is to keep her under the 35 pg/mL ACTH high end of normal during seasonal rise, believing that the more tightly controlled we keep them, the better off they will be long term.

I think once we see how seasonal rise affects a horse's ACTH values, it is a bit easier to judge how to dose in subsequent years. I learned from last year's pattern that I needed to go up 2.5 mg to keep my mare controlled during the rise. And after seasonal rise, she needed more pergolide (3.0 mg) than before the rise started (2.0 mg).  
Best of luck with King. 

Claudia & Silhouette   2014   California central coast

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/




Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Dr Kellon 

I'll have an anwser to your questions in a day or so, not trying to avoid it, i just honestly don't remember a thing that was told to me over the phone with cornell,or my own vet. Read my last post to Nancy last part of it.


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

Hi Kerry

Good caveats.  :-)

Every time this comes up I am still left with the same question.

Did her insulin come down because she had better controlled ACTH or because she got off the Cubes.  I don't think that has been separated out. 

As discussed in other recent posts, the symptoms of uncontrolled IR and uncontrolled PPID overlap. I kow you know that.

Improvement of foot comfort can come in a matter of days from increased dosages of pergolide, just as it can when switching from high ESC&Starch feeds/diet to lower ESC&starch intake. 

As I understand it you did both at the same time.

Just to be clear for new people ODTB Cubes are not high ESC&starch adn this report is unusual so it is why we are pulling apart the confounding factors. A process that our founder Robin established as and ECIR keystone so long ago.

My take of Dr Kellon's response to this and my own personal experiences is that diet is critical to controlling IR, but the system can be overwhelmed by uncontrolled diseases driving insulin levels far beyond anything you can control with diet alone.  It takes control of the diseases to control the IR.  If you don't control the disease, no amount of diet tweaking will fix hyperinsulinemia.

Just like pergolide will not fix "insulin resistance related to genetic predisposition, obesity, diet or any other nonpituitary cause", diet alone will not fix IR from disease states like PPID.


I'm paraphrasing but I think Dr Kellon described it as when ACTH, Lyme, Mare issues, iron overload and other are out of control, no feed will be low enough to control hyperinsulinemia.  You have to address the disease. As you did. 


As for your gelding, It would be helpful to see the rest of the diet and well, you know,,,,,a CH.


In any event, in the last go around, it was suggested that Corrine use soaked hay and the emergency diet if she felt that was the best for Jasper, until he was more stable or at least there was a clearer picture of his dx, 


I offer this Kerry, with all respect for the work you have done with your horses.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available. Guest Speakers





---In EquineCushings@..., <Twinoats@...> wrote :



However, I've observed from direct experience that when my mare's PPID was not controlled, she could not handle the ESC & starch in the cubes in *any* amount fed (even <1lb).  Her insulin normalized only when I found her target dose of pergolide and she consumed the Emergency Diet. Once on the correct pergolide dose for a few weeks, she was able to consume at least 1% BW in ODTBC and even did well on 2% BW thru the hard winter while living out 24/7 and still working (she's on 1% BW at present and doing well).

My IR gelding does well at 0.5% BW (6lbs/day for a 1200-lb horse), but any higher % of BW he gains too much weight and his insulin climbs.  I weigh him monthly at a local equine clinic and any higher than 0.5% BW in cubes and/or a decrease in work sends his insulin into trouble.  If his weight does ever increase, I will decrease the % of cubes.  Luckily, so far, his weight has dropped or held steady at each weighing.



Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Lorna Cane
 

>>Once on the correct pergolide dose for a few weeks, she was able to consume at least 1% BW in ODTBC and even did well on 2% BW thru the hard winter while living out 24/7 and still working (she's on 1% BW at present and doing well

<snip>

>>  I weigh him monthly at a local equine clinic and any higher than 0.5% BW in cubes and/or a decrease in work sends his insulin into trouble. 


My understanding here  is that  horses who are working are being compared to a horse who is not in work.

I'd like to see either all horses working, or no horses working  .


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 




Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Hi Nancy

Took hay out of diet because of unknow  minerals, Lavinia felt i needed to tighten up his diet due to the numbers on test going up quite a bit from test in August.  I had the choice of testing current hay getting it mineral balance or going to all ODTB cubes.

Testing hay is not an easy option big rounds stacked roof high can only get to maybe 4 to core and test. That's on hay from one field. Hay on other side of hay barn comes from 2 different fields, so i felt going to all cubes made more sense. 

Yes i'am working with vet right now he's gone so kinda on my own. He still peeing excessively and drinking excessively so still out of control PPID or IR or both,reason for major diet change,so that's not part of problem.

Vet that came last night isn't the best i don't have alot of faith in her or he ability she over tranqed him and he went down,while he had tube down his nose. So i'am not real appt to have her back i thought jasper was going to die last night. Took him 2 hour before he got back up i demand vet stay till my horse got up and was ok,she did so willingly. I wasn't rude i was just a very worried horse owner and dealing with a very emotional daughter who was freaking out,so that was how my night went NO sleep...


Re: Reposting 196660 spring worming for Cushing/ir pony

Nancy C
 

Hi Sandie

Sorry you got lost in the flurry of posts.

I'm hoping one of our Australia members will add their experiences, dewormer resistance in Australia,  and product ideas, but in the meanwhile, have you seen the file on Deworming? Look for first one here

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

You are right in that some horses cannot handle praziquantel.

There are some good ideas in the above file that hopefully will bring it home for you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Do you have a mare? Attend NO Lamintis! 2015 and learn about the special issues mares can have that drive Insulin Resistance and laminitis.

NO Laminitis! Conference Registration

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <sandiegharries@...> wrote :


Then, what do I rotate with? What do I do in autumn? I usually worm 2X / year and fec in between. If I need to worm more than that what is recommended to rotate with?

Sandie g harries
Victoria, Australia
Since June 2015


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

I understand this post may stir up a hornet's nest -- again -- but being an open forum where advice is commonly solicited and anecdotal reports from owners are encouraged, Im sticking my neck out FWIW....

From careful studying of my two very sensitive IRs, and their experience consuming varying %BW of ODTBC, that IME/IMO, I would try putting Jasper back on the soaked hay only (no cubes) Emergency Diet until there's clinical evidence that his PPID is under control with the increasing pergolide dosages.  Now compounding in the choke episode and the questionable Lyme status to the unabating PU/PD, ongoing hoof soreness, unsatiable appetite, etc.

I do not have published research to provide.

I did not ask Dr Kellon's opinion prior to posting this.

I am not a moderator. 

However, I've observed from direct experience that when my mare's PPID was not controlled, she could not handle the ESC & starch in the cubes in *any* amount fed (even <1lb).  Her insulin normalized only when I found her target dose of pergolide and she consumed the Emergency Diet. Once on the correct pergolide dose for a few weeks, she was able to consume at least 1% BW in ODTBC and even did well on 2% BW thru the hard winter while living out 24/7 and still working (she's on 1% BW at present and doing well).

My IR gelding does well at 0.5% BW (6lbs/day for a 1200-lb horse), but any higher % of BW he gains too much weight and his insulin climbs.  I weigh him monthly at a local equine clinic and any higher than 0.5% BW in cubes and/or a decrease in work sends his insulin into trouble.  If his weight does ever increase, I will decrease the % of cubes.  Luckily, so far, his weight has dropped or held steady at each weighing.

Again, FWIW...my purpose in posting is only to try to get Jasper on the road to recovery. I mean no ill will by offering advice that may appear puzzling or unsolicited. Im just hoping to throw some observations out on the table to possibly help Jasper. That is my only intent.  My apologies for invading your inboxes if this post was unwanted :)

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 21, 2015, at 1:15 PM, threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

IME, hungry all day is part of uncontrolled IR.

You need to do what you need to do to avoid choke. 

Some members have used large rocks in the feed pan/bucket to slow them down. Psyllium previously mentioned.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
 
www.nolaminitis.com




---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :



With no hay in diet i feel like i need to give more then 22 lbs of cubes,i know i run the risk of him getting to fat,i don't know what else to do other then feed 30 lbs a day.He hungry all the time...


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

Hi Coririne

Can't tell you about the pergolide.  You need to look at symptoms and work to the plan you have with your vet. The goal is to control ACTH.

Some folks use these to slow down cube consumption.

nose-it

 



My concern would be that he has choked twice on hard cubes. 

Will all the posts, I honestly have lost track of why you stopped all hay.  If it's low sugar hay, putting a pound or two in a slow feeder might keep him busy in between cube meals

You are going to have to experiment.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Why do herbal remedies not control PPID? To learn more about the understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers



---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

I put a few big rock in his feed dish today slowed him down some,he searched out cubes that were scattered and ate those first.  Had 5.5 lbs gone in an hour,i put out another 3 lbs of cubes scattered out around corral to keep him busy.  

Or he starts eating on the wood rails and posts this is new in just the last 2 days,if he cant do that he eats on salt lick or eats dirt.  This is all new stuff he's started doing since hay has been cut out of diet. He spends his day looking for stuff to eat. I am soaking cubes i put in feed dish the rest i just throw out on ground around corral. When he's out of cube i put out more or he's looking for trouble..not sure keeping cubes in fornt of him is ideal??

Do i up his pergolide another 1 mg or wait a few more days??


Re: Reposting(2nd try): ACTH Results Back

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Nancy,

Thank you so much for replying. I try really hard to watch his symptoms closely, as I see him several times a day(he's at home). I have noticed that his crest has increased a little over the past couple weeks. I'm planning to start by adding .5mg(starting today), and then adding another .5mg 4-5 days after so he will be on an added 1mg. Does that sound appropriate/good to you? 

I would love to retest 3 weeks after I reach the 5.5mg, but I will have to see if I can do it financially. 

The vet is a whole topic in itself - I am struggling/arguing with the vet that I have started working with since she is convinced that the ACTH reference range from Cornell is up to 105(!!) so he doesn't need anymore Pergolide. I finally got her to write the prescription for the .5mg last week by explaining that I'm on this group, and that King needs more Pergolide for the seasonal rise(we will see what happens when I have to do a refill). 

@LJ I will never be able to prove/confirm it, but I believe that he went into kidney failure because his PPID and Insulin levels were so high originally. His kidneys(knock on wood quick) have been WNL and fully functioning for over a year now. He has been doing GREAT, I'm so proud and thankful to this group!  

Thanks all! 
Stephanie & King
Oregon
2014
ECHistory8

 







Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

I put a few big rock in his feed dish today slowed him down some,he searched out cubes that were scattered and ate those first.  Had 5.5 lbs gone in an hour,i put out another 3 lbs of cubes scattered out around corral to keep him busy.  

Or he starts eating on the wood rails and posts this is new in just the last 2 days,if he cant do that he eats on salt lick or eats dirt.  This is all new stuff he's started doing since hay has been cut out of diet. He spends his day looking for stuff to eat. I am soaking cubes i put in feed dish the rest i just throw out on ground around corral. When he's out of cube i put out more or he's looking for trouble..not sure keeping cubes in fornt of him is ideal??

Do i up his pergolide another 1 mg or wait a few more days??

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