Date   

Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

Hi Coririne

Can't tell you about the pergolide.  You need to look at symptoms and work to the plan you have with your vet. The goal is to control ACTH.

Some folks use these to slow down cube consumption.

nose-it

 



My concern would be that he has choked twice on hard cubes. 

Will all the posts, I honestly have lost track of why you stopped all hay.  If it's low sugar hay, putting a pound or two in a slow feeder might keep him busy in between cube meals

You are going to have to experiment.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Why do herbal remedies not control PPID? To learn more about the understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers



---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

I put a few big rock in his feed dish today slowed him down some,he searched out cubes that were scattered and ate those first.  Had 5.5 lbs gone in an hour,i put out another 3 lbs of cubes scattered out around corral to keep him busy.  

Or he starts eating on the wood rails and posts this is new in just the last 2 days,if he cant do that he eats on salt lick or eats dirt.  This is all new stuff he's started doing since hay has been cut out of diet. He spends his day looking for stuff to eat. I am soaking cubes i put in feed dish the rest i just throw out on ground around corral. When he's out of cube i put out more or he's looking for trouble..not sure keeping cubes in fornt of him is ideal??

Do i up his pergolide another 1 mg or wait a few more days??


Re: Reposting(2nd try): ACTH Results Back

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Nancy,

Thank you so much for replying. I try really hard to watch his symptoms closely, as I see him several times a day(he's at home). I have noticed that his crest has increased a little over the past couple weeks. I'm planning to start by adding .5mg(starting today), and then adding another .5mg 4-5 days after so he will be on an added 1mg. Does that sound appropriate/good to you? 

I would love to retest 3 weeks after I reach the 5.5mg, but I will have to see if I can do it financially. 

The vet is a whole topic in itself - I am struggling/arguing with the vet that I have started working with since she is convinced that the ACTH reference range from Cornell is up to 105(!!) so he doesn't need anymore Pergolide. I finally got her to write the prescription for the .5mg last week by explaining that I'm on this group, and that King needs more Pergolide for the seasonal rise(we will see what happens when I have to do a refill). 

@LJ I will never be able to prove/confirm it, but I believe that he went into kidney failure because his PPID and Insulin levels were so high originally. His kidneys(knock on wood quick) have been WNL and fully functioning for over a year now. He has been doing GREAT, I'm so proud and thankful to this group!  

Thanks all! 
Stephanie & King
Oregon
2014
ECHistory8

 







Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

I put a few big rock in his feed dish today slowed him down some,he searched out cubes that were scattered and ate those first.  Had 5.5 lbs gone in an hour,i put out another 3 lbs of cubes scattered out around corral to keep him busy.  

Or he starts eating on the wood rails and posts this is new in just the last 2 days,if he cant do that he eats on salt lick or eats dirt.  This is all new stuff he's started doing since hay has been cut out of diet. He spends his day looking for stuff to eat. I am soaking cubes i put in feed dish the rest i just throw out on ground around corral. When he's out of cube i put out more or he's looking for trouble..not sure keeping cubes in fornt of him is ideal??

Do i up his pergolide another 1 mg or wait a few more days??


Re: Dutch and Prascend

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If you send your hay analysis through the "Ask the Vet" form on this page:

Ask Dr. Kellon - Uckele Health & Nutrition

  I'll let you know if a Uckele product will work.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001




--


Re: Dutch and Prascend

bigelow.rebecca
 

I looked at my most recent hay analysis today and the sugar and starch total 9.5%.  It leaves a lot of minerals that need supplementing though.  I thought the easiest thing to do was to add a multivitamin/mineral supplement that didn't contain anything that Dutch wasn't supposed to have and use single minerals to balance his diet from there. That's why I was wondering about either the Target IR or the Uckele U-Balance Foundation. If I used just single minerals I would need to add lysine, calcium, magnesium, copper, iodine, zinc and selenium. Some of these are at reasonable amounts in his hay but would be needed to balance the ratios. 

I ordered the APF to see if that would help his appetite. I could use some help deciding what dose of Prascend I should be using. Should keep it at 1/4th or 1/2 pill until I get him to eat his minerals or should I just move the dose along? He's currently on 1/2 tab and has been for about a week. Sorry I forgot my signature last time.

Rebecca and Dutch
Elk Grove, CA     2009
Case History:ECHistory8

 



Re: IR or PPID symptoms?

Nancy C
 

Hi Suzanne

Case History opens beautifully.  Thank you.

The problem and confusion with symptoms is that they can overlap.

If you can I would skip the bute.  If he has laminitis it is not going to help that area and could hinder him.   A layman's symposis of why this is so is bute whack the good nitric oxide as well as the bad, j herb can help with a likely vasospasm culprit, endothelin-1.  Bute has been described as a centrally acting drug and does not work on the pain of the feet during on going laminitis.

Bute is also horrible on the system.  You've got the PQ coming which is great.  Might eventually want to transition to jherb.

To read more about any of the above go to ecirhorse.org.

On symptoms
Cushing's Disease

 


Insulin Resistance

 

On symptoms and on bute go to   2013 Proceedings & Recordings Table of Contents


And look specifically for


Bowker -

Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why are they so important to the horse?

Kellon -
  • Getting the Right Diagnosis for PPID/ Cushing’s and EMS/IR
  • Endothelin-1: Key Player in Equine Laminitis?

Not sure which hay you are feeding but you might be able to tighten the Calcium:Mag ratio.  I would do that by using Mag Oxide vs Quiessence. Dr Kellon explains how important the role of mag is in her proceeding on minerals at the above link.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: With knowledge of the nutrient profile of the forage and the animal's weight and level of work, one can supplement only what is needed to target nutritional needs.
Join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015

Continuing Education Credits

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :


Thanks again,
--------------------

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/42876

There is absolutely no solid evidence at all to suggest that
pergolide is of use in treatment of insulin resistance related to
genetic predisposition, obesity, diet or any other nonpituitary cause.


Note the reference to" nonpituitary cause".





 


Re: Metabarol for IR?

 

Will do. Thanks so much.

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct. '12


---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :

I'll try to get a dialogue going with Dr. Adams.  Time short this week though so please send me an e-mail next Monday and remind me.


Re: Falki X-Rays

Connie Proceviat
 

Hi Lavinia and All,


I've added 4 hoof pics that were taken last Friday Sept 18. Sorry pics are not very good but it seems Falki has an abscess brewing now on right front. Very sore since Thursday. I have been poulticing then wrapping in a plastic bag then covering with boots. He has not had a abscess in a long time so maybe it has been brought on by more aggressive trim and increased exercise. Hopefully that's a good thing. Will get better pics when he's able to. Not sure if you are able to provide any feedback on the 4 pics added.


Best Regards,
 

Connie & Falki

Manitoba Canada

Aug 2013


 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Connie%20P/


 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/photos/albums/2003166298


 

---In EquineCushings@..., <conniep@...> wrote :


Tender footed without boots but walks briskly with his boots on. We have been trying to go for a 30 minute walk daily.



---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :


You've done a great job in regaining control of the toes, which are backed up nicely, with dorsal walls following the dorsal edge of the coffin bone. Soles are thin, coffin bones ground parallel. The hoof-pastern axis is slightly broken back in both. This is in part due to the sinking but also need to allow the rear of the foot to gain some height in relation to the front. Also need to gain a bit more overall hoof capsule height as his bony column is sitting lower inside than is optimal.

How is he doing?

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
 



Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

IME, hungry all day is part of uncontrolled IR.

You need to do what you need to do to avoid choke. 

Some members have used large rocks in the feed pan/bucket to slow them down. Psyllium previously mentioned.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
 
www.nolaminitis.com




---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :



With no hay in diet i feel like i need to give more then 22 lbs of cubes,i know i run the risk of him getting to fat,i don't know what else to do other then feed 30 lbs a day.He hungry all the time...


Re: Metabarol for IR?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'll try to get a dialogue going with Dr. Adams.  Time short this week though so please send me an e-mail next Monday and remind me.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

I called cornell and blood for lyme test was more then likely missed handled to get the results jasper had. I then called vet clinic and talked to them,and the blood samples were not taken care of in a timely fashion.

= = = = = =

Could you be more specific?  Exactly how was the sample mishandled?  What is "taken care of in a timely fashion"?  What effect did these sample handling errors have on the results?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Metabarol for IR?

 

Sorry for the partial earlier post.


Dr Kellon, would you consider going direct with the president of the company, who responded to my questions this morning, to ask for the study data? I can provide his email address, and his phone is shown below. Or get the study data from the researchers? The lead researcher in the AQHA financed study was Amanda A. Adams, contact details at http://www2.ca.uky.edu/gluck/AdamsAA.asp   I’m out of my depth with the statistical details, recognizing only that this is a very small study of a short duration.


Answers: No, there were no diet changes, all horses were dry-lotted on hay, and no, neither metformin nor levothyroxine were administered. Control horses received only the yeast as a placebo. The study duration was 45 days in the autumn. The reduction in insulin levels in EMS horses administered Metabarol daily (45 day study duration), versus placebo, was statistically significant at the alpha = 0.05 level. 


In any event I'm unwilling to cut Satra's hay from 1 ¾ %/BW to 1 ½ %. Her grass hay diet hasn't changed significantly since I recognized she was PPID in 2012 or has only become more strict, so the doubling of her insulin within the past 6 months is independent of diet changes. We're working on getting new blood tests done at the same time of day as earlier tests to remove that variable  from the equation.


I take the liberty of copying the email.

----------------------------

Hello Cass,


Thank you for your interest in Metabarol. One thing I would like to point out is that the researchers performing this study used the Scientific Method in designing and executing this study. In keeping with the Scientific Method, the study was designed such that as few variables as possible were modified or changed before and during the study such that there is maximal statistical power in determining if there indeed is a significant effect of an independent variable, which in this case is whether or not an EMS horse received Metabarol or placebo. The dependent variable in this study is the insulin level of the horse or concentration of inflammatory mediators present in the blood. Please see answers to your specific questions below.


Were the diets of the two groups identical before & during the study? 


Yes, the diets of the horses were identical before and during the study. All horses were maintained on a dry lot and fed only hay. The control group also received placebo (yeast, Sacharromyces cerevisiae, carrier in Metabarol) daily, while the treatment group received Metabarol daily. 


Were there diet changes during the study? What time of year? Were Metformin or levothyroxine administered?


The diets were not changed during the study. Changing the diet during the study would introduce a confounding variable. Metformin NOR levoythyroxine were not administered to control or treatment group horses.  The study was designed to determine if Metabarol administration reduced insulin levels in EMS horses. Therefore, there would be no reason to administer Metformin or Levothyroxine. The study was performed in Autumn.


The demonstrated capability of Metabarol to reduce insulin levels in EMS horses IS INDEPENDENT OF DIET. The reduction in insulin levels in EMS horses administered Metabarol daily (45 day study duration), versus placebo, was statistically significant at the alpha = 0.05 level. 


Thanks again for your interest in Metabarol. Have a great day!



Patrick Lawless PhD

President

Biological Prospects LLC


Office

449 Lewis Hargett Circle, Suite 190

Lexington, Kentucky 40503

(P) 866.721.1412

(F) 866.415.6808


Laboratory

University of Kentucky

ASTeCC Building

Room A346

145 Graham Avenue

Lexington, KY 40506-0286


Re: Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

I think I may be not seeing the big picture so let me just ask.....are you giving Naproxen  Sodium on a daily basis or just in special circumstances....i.e. farrier?  Short term for flare ups?  


Thank you,

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

HI Nancy,OOPS sorry i missed spelled your name, i missed that typo before i hit send.


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Hi Nacy

His teeth were done last fall,vet checked his teeth while she was here last night his teeth are good. I checked cube consistency there are some hard dark green shinny ones in the bag. I didn't notice them last night but it was late. I haven't been soaking them he seems to do fine most of the time,i scatter them on the ground and put some in his feed bucket. 

He thinks he's starving when i give more cubes at 11 pm so takes huge mouthfuls,two mouthfuls into to it last night and i knew he was in trouble. If i don't do the 11 pm feeding he goes 9 to 10 hours with nothing to eat,so he getting close to 30 lbs a day in cubes.

With no hay in diet i feel like i need to give more then 22 lbs of cubes,i know i run the risk of him getting to fat,i don't know what else to do other then feed 30 lbs a day.He hungry all the time...


Re: Metabarol for IR?

 

I don't know that it makes sense for me to ask more questions because yours are so specific. I received a response this morning the president of the company that I am taking the liberty of copying below. 


Re: Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Nancy C
 

I did some syringing in to get started, then threw mine in mashed ODTB Cubes and  TCLite, for my gelding with no teeth. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
EARLY BIRD EXPIRES Wednesday!
NO Laminitis!



---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


I grind the tablets.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Nancy C
 

Hi Corrine

Please look at the consistency of the cubes when you feed them. My gelding with no teeth successfully ate them  very loose - a mash really -  and by adding psyllium which makes them more slimey and easier to swallow.   It took getting used to.  With slow transition and patience i finally won out and he did great on them.

Also review his dental needs.  The above gelding needed the dentist every six months to keep what he had left as good as possible.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. Learn more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8.
Guest Speakers

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :


ECIR Group Inc. 2015 NO Laminitis! Conf - 3 days for Early Bird

Nancy C
 

Discounted registration expires Wednesday, September 23rd.

When: November 6-8, 2015

Where: Georgetown, TX ~ Just outside Austin

When: November 6-8, 2015

Where: Georgetown, TX ~ Just outside Austin
Featured
Speakers : Eleanor M. Kellon, VMD
   
    Robert M. Bowker, VMD, PhD
   
    Kathleen Gustafson, PhD
  
    Philip J. Johnson, BVSc, MS, DACVIM, DECEIM, MRCVS
   
    Lavinia Fiscaletti, BA
   
    Daisy A. Bicking, DEP, APF, CFGP, CLS
   
    Benjamin R. Buchanan, DVM, DACVIM, DACVECC

NO Laminitis!

 

Tickets must be purchased in advance, prior to October 22nd.

There is much work to do and volunteers are dedicating many hours to getting ready. Registering in advance helps organizers plan the best possible event. Thank you to those of you who have stepped up!

The NO Laminitis! conference offers three days of information dedicated to the welfare of the PPID/IR equine and is approved for veterinary continuing education credits by AAVSB/RACE*, as well as by the the United States Dressage Federation for USDF University accreditation.

http://www.usdf.org/calendar/course.asp?CoursePass=102649

A veterinary student discount is also available.

Student Discount
Thank you to our Benefactors for their generous donations for this major 2015 ECIR Group Inc. fund raising event. Please tell these companies you appreciate their support the next time you talk with them or visit their web site, which you can access while visiting ecirhorse.org or nolaminitis.org.

Diamond Benefactors


California Trace


Forage Plus


Uckele Health and Nutrition


Platinum Benefactors
Auburn Labs

APF


Soft Ride Boots


Emerald Valley Natural Health


Beet-E-Bites


Hay Chix


EponaShoe



Gold Benefactors


Black Horse Consulting


Horse Tech


My Best Horse


Anderson Feed - Nuzu Feed


Omega Fields


Equicast


Ontario Dehy


Triple Crown


Eco Nets


Brazos Valley Equine Hospital




Looking forward to seeing you!


The 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference Committee



*This program was reviewed and approved by the AAVSB RACE program for 13 hours of continuing education in jurisdictions that recognize AAVSB RACE approval. Please contact the AAVSB RACE program if you have any comments/concerns regarding this program's validity or relevancy to the veterinary profession. Participants should be aware that some boards have limitations on the number of hours accepted in certain categories and/or restrictions on certain methods of delivery of continuing education. Contact Nancy Collins ecirgroup1@... for further information.




Re: Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Lorna Cane
 


I grind the tablets.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 


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