Date   

Re: beet pulp.. good or bad? I might drop it..

Lorna Cane
 


P.S 

Read Dr. Kellon's comments:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/184910

 




 >>So, why not withdraw the bp and see how his labs look?  


Why not start by looking at his numbers before he went on BP, and since then?

What symptoms does Jess have now,which he didn't have before BP? And what else has changed in his management, as well as the addition of BP ?




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 





 



 



Re: beet pulp.. good or bad? I might drop it..

Lorna Cane
 


 >>So, why not withdraw the bp and see how his labs look?  


Why not start by looking at his numbers before he went on BP, and since then?

What symptoms does Jess have now,which he didn't have before BP? And what else has changed in his management, as well as the addition of BP ?




Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: beet pulp.. good or bad? I might drop it..

Rachel Chrismas
 

Hi there,

This is great Laura, I'm so glad to hear your equine friend is doing so well😊.

I would love to be able to log into your case history, although when I click on the link it says "oops you need to be a member to perform this action" or something to that effect.

Can anyone shed some light on what I'm doing wrong? I thought I was a member?

Cheers
Rachel
Queensland, Australia 
Member since Sept 2015

Sent from my iPhone

On 15 Oct 2015, at 5:55 PM, lauramollrich@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Pabatsa, my now 18-year old KWPN Warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed in 7/2007 with Cushing's.  Late 2011 he became IR. I was at wit's end trying to figure out who could help me and what I could do to keep him alive and well. Someone told me about Dr. Kellon and this group, so I joined the group in January 2012.  In my opinion, Dr. Kellon knows this field better than any other medical authority.  The members of this group have kept my boy healthy, sound and fit with their combined knowledge.

Pabatsa's diet began as rinsed/soaked/rinsed bp since day one.  Per Dr. Kellon's direction, I balance his minerals to the Timothy the stable serves and add other ingredients to build muscle, etc.

A quick look at my history file will tell you Pabatsa is very well cared for.  I test his Insulin/Glucose/ACTH every 2 months.  My husband tells people that if he gets a hangnail the vet is out.

I appreciate what you posted but as far as changing what is working I have to say *Yes* to beet pulp.
Pabatsa has been the CDS-SJC (California Dressage Society-San Juan Capistrano Chapter) Champion at First Level, Second Level, and Third Level.  Last year he was ranked 8th (Nationally) with the KWPN (Royal Dutch Warmblood Society), and the year prior he was ranked 3rd.

I credit his diet.

Laura in CA
1/2012


Re: beet pulp.. good or bad? I might drop it..

lauramollrich
 

Pabatsa, my now 18-year old KWPN Warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed in 7/2007 with Cushing's.  Late 2011 he became IR. I was at wit's end trying to figure out who could help me and what I could do to keep him alive and well. Someone told me about Dr. Kellon and this group, so I joined the group in January 2012.  In my opinion, Dr. Kellon knows this field better than any other medical authority.  The members of this group have kept my boy healthy, sound and fit with their combined knowledge.

Pabatsa's diet began as rinsed/soaked/rinsed bp since day one.  Per Dr. Kellon's direction, I balance his minerals to the Timothy the stable serves and add other ingredients to build muscle, etc.

A quick look at my history file will tell you Pabatsa is very well cared for.  I test his Insulin/Glucose/ACTH every 2 months.  My husband tells people that if he gets a hangnail the vet is out.

I appreciate what you posted but as far as changing what is working I have to say *Yes* to beet pulp.
Pabatsa has been the CDS-SJC (California Dressage Society-San Juan Capistrano Chapter) Champion at First Level, Second Level, and Third Level.  Last year he was ranked 8th (Nationally) with the KWPN (Royal Dutch Warmblood Society), and the year prior he was ranked 3rd.

I credit his diet.

Laura in CA
1/2012
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Laura%20Mollrich/


beet pulp.. good or bad? I might drop it..

lj friedman
 

I read an article from Dr. Joyce Hartman. stating that not all of the sugar is eliminated from soaking bp.  Dr. Kellon is noted as saying bp is fine.. Jesse has always had high glucose, insuliin etc and he's always been on 2.4# of bp while being tested.. So, why not withdraw the bp and see how his labs look?  make sense?  lj friedman san diego.. here is the article.. i need a plan B to mix in his supps.. any thoughts? I can always mix some in his timothy pellets?  ( I liked bp bec I thought it was a meal that took some time to eat.. and I considered the 2.4# of bp a 4th meal.. ( 3 other meals of timothy pellets)  


http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrTHRQdMR9WOhsA30RXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyN2I3ZHB2BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwM5BHZ0aWQDQjA5MzRfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1444913566/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.slideshare.net%2fbracaloni%2fbeet-pulp-is-it-toxic-to-horses/RK=0/RS=qvD9MB1nuMIwdKj4AQMWtGr8P28-



Re: equerrys large animal probiotics.. meal form

lj friedman
 

My other horse.. is having loose manure.. not crazy loose, but you can see liquid when you sweep the manure away., and her vet suggested probiiotics.  lj friedman san deigo nov 2014 


Re: equerrys large animal probiotics.. meal form

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lj,

Why did the vet suggest probiotics? Unless there is a problem, probiotics are generally not needed for a healthy horse. Won't hurt (except your wallet) but won't help either.

Horses need probiotics with numbers in the billions, not millions, so the Equerry's product doesn't contain enough of anything to be effective.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: how often to restest blood

lj friedman
 

My horse Jesse has gotten many chiro adjustments from many diff providers, but never sedated,, why is sedation necessary?  ( One time a human chiro wanted to manipulate me under anesthesia,,, I said no to that right quick)   lj friedman san diego nov 2014. 


Bute for cushings/ severe IR horse..

lj friedman
 

Jesse was worked a bit too hard today..  full sweat . hot humid day and lesson learned. At 25, he is probably a walk trot horse and if he wants to canter  fine.. but I won't have the trainers ask for it like they did today, .. Tonite., 6pm. when I went to visit and prepare  his supps and bp, his evening feed was not touched.. timothy pellets.. So, since this has NEVER happened before, ever, .  I'll take the leap and say he was worked too hard and is sore.. He was fidgetey as well.   The BO suggested 1 gm of bute  for his comfort tonite and I gave it to him..He did start to eat, and while I didnt see him pass manure, his stall suggested that he had passed manure several times.. So, how bad did I do with 1 gm of bute to ease his soreness?  LJ Friedman san diiego nov 2014


ECHistory8



Re: how often to restest blood

jamsler707@...
 

That’s the thing I don’t know what the target dose is?  As I understand the only way to know is to test, sure you can see if they are really lethargic, eyes not bright etc., but with the weather WAY cooler & no bugs is she just feeling a bit better or is the Pergolide at the right dose?  & how does one know if you are giving too big a dose?  Since the vet is coming to sedate her next week for chiropractic adjustment if he is heading back to his office from my place maybe I will have him draw the blood first & do the test since it is OK to test during seasonal rise to see if the 2 mg is helping & by how much.
Thanks,
Julia & Luxy in PA
11/2011


equerrys large animal probiotics.. meal form

lj friedman
 

For my horse without ppid/ir.. my vet suggested probiotics.. I bought the product above. Is this something I should also give to a ppid/severe IR horse, Jesse?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jesse%20and%20LJ%20Friedman/



Re: help... Princess culture sue & princess

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hello, Sorry it took so long... very busy here princess is taking up a lot more of my time. I'm now doing her legs 2 X's a day..using a lot of vet wrap.. the reason is, no shes not worse she getting better. the infection is getting under control with the help of the podi-green. that works GREAT... its make a big difference. she abscessed 2 more times not big but she did. I'm putting the green stuff in it 2 X's a day and its making a big difference.. she moving a little more she now goes to her grain tub and eats I don't have to take it to her, but her turning is hard for her, but little baby steps..  Jeremiah is coming out tomorrow on his way to Main and taking a look at her. hes going to be happy with what he sees. she so much better and I feel better on the infection. it almost  gone but  2  abases places. but I'll have him give me his 2 cents. I know he'll be pleased.. wow what a difference a trim makes. the right trim... I'll have to post her clown feet wrap.. she looks funny but it works..
the swelling is almost gone in her leg. just a tiny bit in the ankle area..I'm going to keep her on the smz for a little longer.. so far so good..
sue & princess
oh 6/11



On Sunday, October 11, 2015 4:48 PM, "janieclougher@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi, Sue - You are kind of between a rock and a hard place with the available antibiotics. One reason why regional limb perfusion might be a better choice is that one can target the area more directly, and reduce the systemic effects of the antibiotics used; and you can also administer antibiotics that can't be used orally.  There aren't many oral antibiotics that one can use in horses without either making the horse very ill, or having the digestive system of the horse render the antibiotic useless.

So.... risk vs benefit. Both Baytril and SMZ have the potential to increase insulin (but no studies in horses). Doxycycline won't work, because one of the bacterial species is resistant to it.  If you could do a regional limb perfusion, you could use gentamicin again (or similar)

Good that you are back with your old vet - phew!  Keep up the good work. You and Princess are real troupers.




on the smz.. what would be better that would not raise the IR but kill what she has??
is there such  antibiotic that is good for ir horses? there's no smell in her club hoof as of yesterday but still some drainage but her reg hoof still has some smell and drainage in it..
sue & princess
oh 6/11







Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload

Patty Sobel <psobel_gen@...>
 

Hi Dallas,

My PPID and IR mare also dislikes ground flax, and even chia seeds.  For a while I was giving flax oil via syringe, which was even worse.  Finally I found a solution she likes, though it's a little time consuming.

I take 1/2 lb grain (Stabul 1), 2.5 oz ground flax seeds, and mix with 1cup warm water.  Then I spread the mixture onto a cookie sheet and bake at 325 for 40 minutes.  It makes a "granola" that my fussy mare will happily eat.  This is great if your horse prefers a crunchy texture as mine does.

For Vit E, I mix the powder with 1 tsp Cocosoya oil but coconut oil would also work.  She eats that right on her Granola.

Patty and Libby
Laurel, MD


Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload

Lorna Cane
 




>>  Sometimes they just take time to get used to new things, and introducing slowly can work.

Hi Dallas,

I wanted to add to Maggie's good suggestions wrt feeding the flax seed.
This is totally counter-intuitive.
But Patti came across it by accident,one day when she was in a rush.
She dumped the mineral mix on top of the feed ,to save time.
When she got back from work the buckets were clean.

I began doing the same thing.
My guys eat it.

All I can think of is that they aren't as discerning with the first couple of mouthsful, and by then it's too late.They couldn't hate it that much ,though,or they wouldn't do it the next time........my theory.
I like this approach because I know they are getting what they need,especially if they don't totally finish their buckets.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 




Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload

Maggie
 

Hi Dallas,

Yes, mixing the flax oil with the powdered E should work just fine.  Pure flax oil is quite a bit more expensive than ground flax seed, but if he won't eat it....  Did you try adding it just a pinch at first and increasing it just a bit at a time?  Sometimes they just take time to get used to new things, and introducing slowly can work.  I would buy a small bag from the grocery store and start adding just a small amount (~ a teaspoon?) into his current supplement bucket.  If he eats it, increase the amount a little at a time.  You should know if he's going to eat 2-4 oz by the end of the small bag (or 2).  Then you can buy it in larger, more economical bags.  Triple Crown makes one called Omega Max.  I pay about $28 for a 25 lb bag.  There are other choices too.

You are doing a great job!  Looking forward too seeing Commander's hoof pics!  Snow and ice--UGH!!  I am SO not looking forward to that!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload

Dallas Kerzan
 

Maggie,

Thanks for the nice welcome and input on the iron overload testing. You make a good point about holding off to see how he does after the DDT/E have all been implemented. I'm anxious to begin the mineral balancing that Kathy B has already figured out.  Yes, my hay is an alfalfa/grass mix, and I'll have to make the best of it for now. It is a genuine concern of mine as I pick through the bales to find the grassiest ones for Commander. We originally tried ground flax but Commander would not eat it. We'll retry it or the flax oil asap.  I didn't know the AniMed blend had the wrong ratios. If we use the flax oil, will it work to mix with the powdered Vit E? The trim is progressing, toes shorter, heels lower. Our farrier put shoes on backwards on the fronts so he could trim more off.  The shoes will be pulled on the next visit since it will soon be ice and snow here in Wisconsin. I'll do my best to post good pics so the guru has time to evaluate his feet.

Dallas and Commander
Oct 2015, Wisconsin
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Dallas%20and%20Commander/

 


---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote :
Testing for iron overload in a severely IR horse (which Commander is) would not be considered overkill.  In fact, it will help you and Kathy B to get his diet balanced as tightly as possible.  If it's in the finances, I would definitely spring for it!  If not, your money may be better spent at this time on getting Commander's diet balanced.  You may want to consider testing for iron overload in the future if all the parts of DDT/E are firmly in place and Commander is still having issues.  
Alfalfa can make some horses foot sore.  Something to consider if Commander is continuing to have foot issues.  
Another thing I noticed is that you are using 3 oz of Animed's flax/soy oil blend.  Is that correct?  We recommend ground flax seed to replace the Omega 3's and 6's because it has the closest 3:6 ratio to grass, ~4:1.  The Animed Flaxseed blend has Omega 3 2000 mg (min), Omega 6 1500 mg (min), so a 3:6 ratio of ~1.3:1.  Is there a reason that you are not using ground flax seed?  If so, you should consider switching to pure flax seed oil without the soy oil.  Soy oil has almost all Omega 6 (pro-inflammatory) and almost no Omega 3 (anti-inflammatory).

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!

Rachel Chrismas
 

Ok, thanks for that. Much appreciated!

I think I'm finally able to navigate around this yahoo group thing....

😊

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Oct 2015, at 5:59 am, windybriars@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 



>>As I'm getting sick of paying for tests that are inaccurate due to the way they are handled or not knowing the correct parameters of testing.

Hi Rachel,

Reread Pauline's message from last month.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196689

 

Follow the links she provides, follow messages here,and devour our Files.
Become a knowledge warrior.
Then you can help your vet(s) fill in some blanks.
Many members here report that their vets have been appreciative of their clients' help in this regard.
Your horse will be the better for it, and you will have the power that comes with knowledge.

Yes, it's hard work,but everso wothwhile.



Re: how often to restest blood

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Luxy - In fact, testing during the seasonal rise can often pinpoint early Cushing's horses whose ACTH is normal the rest of the year. If you look at the following folder, and scroll down to :

PituitaryParsIntermediaDysfunction.pdf

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/ACTH%20TESTING%20%26%20INFORMATION/

you will find a lovely graph from the folks at Liphook in the UK, showing that confirmed Cushing's horses have an ACTH three times or more higher than normal horses during the seasonal rise.  The seasonal rise in normal horses is from about September to the end of December; horses with Cushing's can have a seasonal rise that starts sooner and lasts longer.  The period from April through June is when the ACTH is normally lowest.

Luxy's ACTH was really quite high, so confirming his Cushing's status; from now on you will be testing him to confirm that his pergolide dose is correct (you already know that he has Cushing's).  The time to re-test is 2 to 3 weeks after reaching his target dose.  Has he recovered from his initial lethargy and problems after starting the pergolide?  Did you end up reducing the dose, and then starting over again more slowly? 

Once the horse is diagnosed PPID, most of us test at least once per year, with the exact time depending on the horse.  If the horse has shown foot-soreness in the past as early as August, then test mid-July.  Otherwise, test in early September to ensure there is enough pergolide on board to deal with the seasonal rise.  A confirmed PPID horse should have the ACTH in the low to mid normal range at all times (unlike normal horses, who can quite easily deal with the swings of the seasonal rise)

Hope this helps!

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <jmams1@...> wrote :

I am trying to figure out when to do Luxy's 2nd blood test.   I was under the impression it's best to not test during seasonal rise, which I thought was in the spring & fall?  So it would be better to do it in Nov. rather than Jan.?

Thanks,

Julia & Luxy in PA

11/2011

ECHistory8

 


Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!

Lorna Cane
 



>>As I'm getting sick of paying for tests that are inaccurate due to the way they are handled or not knowing the correct parameters of testing.

Hi Rachel,

Reread Pauline's message from last month.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196689

 

Follow the links she provides, follow messages here,and devour our Files.
Become a knowledge warrior.
Then you can help your vet(s) fill in some blanks.
Many members here report that their vets have been appreciative of their clients' help in this regard.
Your horse will be the better for it, and you will have the power that comes with knowledge.

Yes, it's hard work,but everso wothwhile.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!

Rachel Chrismas
 

Thank you for clarifying this for me.
Much appreciated!

So, is there a list of vets for different parts of the world, that know what their doing if you have a horse suspected of IR or  Cushings?

As I'm getting sick of paying for tests that are inaccurate due to the way they are handled or not knowing the correct parameters of testing.

Rachel
Queensland, Australia
September 2015

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Oct 2015, at 12:05 am, drkellon@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 


--In EquineCushings@..., <r_sings@...> wrote :

So if the horse is fasted for the IR testing, you get an inaccurate result?

= = = = = = = =

A study performed at LSU [Caltibilota et al, JEVS May 2009] found that fasting leptin correlated with IR status on a combined glucose and insulin test but fasting glucose and insulin were not significantly different between normal and IR horses.

Fasting also lowers ACTH, as found in the study below as well as observations of an owner in our group:

horse "feeding status" ACTH - PubMed Result

 

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

 


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