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Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

ksherbin@...
 

Thank you for your real-life example. So glad to hear that your mare is 30. You must be doing a fantastic job with her, and it inspires me that my guy will do well too.

 

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's during seasonal rise

July 27, 2015

ECHistory8

 




Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

ksherbin@...
 


"Aging will not make IR go away. If the IR has been induced by uncontrolled Cushing's (PPID), then the IR will indeed go away when the PPID is under control."

Jaini,

 

Thanks for the details to back up your opening statement. The vet and the farm owner won't be open to the information, but as long as I'm clear on it, that is helpful.

 

I didn't understand this comment: "also, double-check the actual ACTH numbers. PPID horses do better if the ACTH is in the middle range, not at the upper end of normal. "

 

Is 23.4 pg/mL considered in the high range of normal when the range is 9-35? Are you suggesting another test? The last one is from a month ago.The vet said she thought it was a good number and said to keep the pergolide dosage at 1 mg daily.

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's during seasonal rise

July 27, 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Inky%20Case%20History/

 


switching to odtb cubes

vicky monen
 

Hi,

Im Switching pony over to the ODTB cubes from Equilizer feed.   How much of the ODTB cubes should I feed per feeding for an IR 1000lb pony, fed twice a day.   With plain forage hay?


Vicky Monen and Samson

Ga, Aug 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Vicky%20and%20Samson/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/1698376942`


Re: Need some input please

tara sullivan
 

Thanks for the link.  I tried!  Very interested in having you review Divina's CH and tell me what you think.
I know we need to sign...I cant remember when I joined....2014? 2013?
Tara and Divina
NY 2014  


Re: Calming Product for Daily Administration to Horse on Stall Rest

Larks Tabatha
 

Yes... I have some Rescue Remedy, use it before my rides when I have a wild eyed horse.  I am wondering how you would you dose it for daily use?  This healing process may take weeks ;(

Was hoping for something that I could set up in her pre measured baggies of  pellets and supplements for the days that someone else is feeding for me..

Thanks again,
Sally in AZ
April 2013 


Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

janieclougher@...
 


Hi, Karin-

Aging will not make IR go away.  If the IR has been induced by uncontrolled Cushing's (PPID), then the IR will indeed go away when the PPID is under control.

Reduction in weight definitely helps improve the IR status of the horse, and can sometimes bring it to the compensated or even the status of non-IR.  Not always, however.

Good news that the leptin values are going down - I believe that suggests that some of the metabolism is coming under control. However, since Inky is (by his case history) still fat, that may explain why the insulin and glucose levels aren't yet coming down; also, double-check the actual ACTH numbers.  PPID horses do better if the ACTH is in the middle range, not at the upper end of normal.


It is true that a horse is more prone to Cushings(PPID) as it ages; older horses have had more time for oxidative damage to the neurons, which, over time, will result in PPID.  However, they can still be baseline IR, even when skinny.  Being skinny can aid in control of IR, but it can also be a sign of advanced IR.

There are a lot of factors that contribute to weight loss in an older horse (or the horse who was an easy-keeper becoming a hard-keeper). The obvious ones, such as teeth and parasitism, are usually fairly easy to identify.  However, an older horse whose teeth look just fine may no longer have the muscle mass and muscle strength to chew as thoroughly as a younger horse, and so the hay isn't chewed enough to allow proper release of nutrients.  Also, there is a gradual decrease in stomach acid production with age, which will reduce protein absorption.  In elderly humans, there is reduced production of digestive enzymes, and reduced absorption of nutrients in the intestinal tract.  It is possible that the same is also true for horses in the small intestinal portion of the tract, at any rate.


A short check-list of factors contributing to weight loss or hard-keeping would include:


Uncontrolled PPID

Age-related changes in enzyme production, acid production, and ability to absorb nutrients

Teeth - either worn, or needing floating

Chewing ability - lack of strength

Parasitism

Underlying disease - kidney or liver issues, other disease states

Pain - laminitis, arthritis, other

Uncontrolled, advanced IR


Note that uncontrolled PPID will pack a triple whammy with reduced muscle mass and strength, and suppressed immune system resulting in a greater susceptibility to parasitism.


All of the above weight-loss "strategies" come with a price, however - not only are there fewer calories being absorbed, there are fewer essential nutrients being absorbed, and that is not a good thing.


Clear as mud? Sorry, I meant this to be a simple and short answer, but equine metabolism is anything but simple! There are lots of variables involved. Hope this helps a little.




Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

 

Thanks, Ian. I, for one, care very much why compounding pharmacies do what they do. Consistency of the compounded drug is central to my willingness to substitute a compounded drug for an FDA approved formulation. 

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

---In EquineCushings@..., <ian@...> wrote :

I just got off the phone with Rich Gaffin, R.Ph. of Pet Health Pharmacy. Pet Health supplies compounded Pergolide Mesylate. As previously mentioned, compounding formulas are supplied for Pergolide Mesylate (not Pergolide USP or base). Rich guaranteed me that they dispense Pergolide Mesylate and that they do NOT dispense based on Pergolide base. He mentioned that since Prascend has come along they counsel their clients about the 1.305 Pergolide Mesylate to Pergolide base conversion to try to keep the same dose but they do not compound in Pergolide base doses. The net result is, that ThrivingPets and Pet Health (and most likely the majority of other compounding pharmacie as well) compound Pergolide Mesylate. BI makes Prascend in 1mg Pergolide base tablets (1.305mg of Pergolide Mesylate).

I have reached out to Donald Plumb of Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook to see if the dosing his publication provides for Pergolide Mesylate is for Pergolide base of Pergolide Mesylate and will get back to the group when I hear back.

-Ian
ThrivingPets


Hay Analysis

 

I am very sorry to clog up this list with this question, but I suspect that Eleanor is not receiving my email messages. I sent her two different sets of hay analysis before the seminar. She was, of course, swamped, but said she would get back to me. I have heard nothing and thought perhaps I didn't get her messages. I totally understand if I need to ask someone else to do my balancing. I just need to know. 

Linda Headley 2002

Woodrow and Tru


Re: APF and other herbs at the same time?

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Kathy,

Thanks for your reply. I just called My Best Horse and Auburn Labs to confirm that it is okay and am waiting to hear back. 

Have a great day.
Stephanie & King


Re: low sugar/starch hay

Lorna Cane
 



Barb,I reply rom the site,too.

No problems copying and pasting my sig. from Word.

Wish I could help.




Re: anhidrosis with PPID, IR, panting, metformin, antihistamines and weather changes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Anhidrosis is one of the most frustrating problems to attempt to treat, whether associated with PPID or not.  Temperature regulation occurs in the hypothalamus, where the dopamine producing neurons controlling the pituitary originate and are damaged.  The role of dopamine, however, is unclear and PPID anhidrotic horses certainly don't always respond to pergolide.

Older horses in general, not just with PPID, also are less tolerant of the cold.

When extremes of temperature may be expected, it is still generally best to clip the horse and control comfort with sheets and blankets.  Even if temperature changes are extreme in a 24 hour period you will still have enough time to adjust coverings if you pay attention to the weather reports.

As for the antihistamines causing anhidrosis, I've seen those anecdotal reports too but have to think they are actually coincidental.  Antihistamines have been tried as a therapy for equine anhidrosis (don't work) because of success with some types of anhidrosis in people:

Idiopathic Pure Sudomotor Failure Responding to Oral Antihistamine with Sweating Activities- Full HTML - Acta Dermato-Venereologica - Content

 

I've had some good results in two horses with anhidrosis using L-arginine to support nitric oxide levels. Nitric oxide has been found to be involved in sweating in humans.  This should NOT be used in a horse that has any infection or inflammation.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: low sugar/starch hay

Barbara Vincent
 

Maggie,   I'm replying via the Yahoo site, I believe.   Clicking on the "reply" button after the message. I didn't know there was a way to do it by email.  Maybe that would allow copying and pasting of the CH address?
Barbara and Lily
Malvern, PA
March 2015


Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

Nancy C
 

Hi Ian


To your most recent post, It really doesn't matter why you, or anyone else, is producing capsules that contain less than the stated mg of pergolide when compared to Prascend. My concern as a horseowner is if one pharmacy is giving 1 mg of pergolide mesylate vs another who is giving 1.3 mg of pergolide mesylate, I'd want to know so that I may compare cost/benefit.

As pointed out, 3 mg caps of pergolide mesylate would have only 2 mg of pergolide.

If my horse is on a low level of pergolide that has him or her happy and controlled, I might not find this a reason to worry, as suggested by Dr Kellon earlier.  However, at 14 mg per day, it becomes an issue I'd want to look at closely.

It would seem from this discussion that pharmacies may be  compounding at different levels.  If so then dosing levels from Prascend to compound could be different if dosing at the 1 mg of pergolide mesylate per cap.  I would find this a huge bit of helpful info when dealing with vets as well as in understanding my actual costs.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 







Re: anhidrosis with PPID, IR, panting, metformin, antihistamines and weather changes

Nancy C
 

Hi Katherine

Good for you for coming so far with your herd. I do not have issues with anhidrosis but have a 29 y/o gelding who is a complicated case of metabolic issues.

Anhidrosis can be a symptom of uncontrolled PPID.  PPID horses can have issues with cold as well as hot.

Here is an early post from Dr Kellon on the subject

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/13197

 



Some members have used One AC and other similar supplements.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/42053

 

Jiaogulan and nitric oxide support has also been helpful to some.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/93184

 


Some folks have used APF successfully

Welcome to Auburn Laboratories, Inc. - Makers of APF and APF Pro

 



Make sure salt is adequate to the amount they are sweating.  Rule of thumb is 2 ounces for 1000 lb horse, additional for each additional hour of sweat.

Do the best you can with blanketing.  As for clipping and the need for blanketing, you need to do what makes him the most comfortable, IMO. That can take trial and error.  I think it is fair to say that most people who clip need blanketing to one degree or another depending on where they live.

The group does not recommend long term use of metformin for the reasons you describe. 

I am not aware and could not find references to anhidrosis and antihistamines and will have to leave that to Dr. Kellon or Dr Clougher.  I can say that tight diet balancing is a huge piece in helping them control bug issues.  Once that is in place other components can be layered in if needed.

It would be really helpful to have a Case History for your guys so we can pinpoint areas where tightening diagnosis/drugs, diet, etc., might work.  If you would join out Yahoo “filing cabinet” and fill out a form to upload, that would go a long way to help us help you.  Here is the link.  You need to join just like you did here

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory8/info


 



Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <katherinefrazier1953@...> wrote :

I'm new to the group and have learned a lot here.  Dr. Kellon's consult on our IR/PPID pony probably saved his life.  


Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

 

My mare is 30 year old Cushing and IR mare is still very much IR.  I do wish that statement was true but it isn't.

Jean and Amber
in South Carolina
August 2004
EC Case History 2

 


Re: Need some input please

Lorna Cane
 


 

>>I have updated her history. 


Hi Tara,


Here's a workable link:


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Divina/


>>Recommendations for treating chronic Lymes?? 


Sorry,haven't had time to read CH yet. 

But try an Archive Conversations search for Lyme. 

We have discussed it a lot,and you'll find valuable information  there.




Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 

 


Re: Calming Product

Lorna Cane
 


Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

Lorna Cane
 


> She means that as an IR/Cushing's horse ages, the IR goes away.

 

It is not true that age causes IR to go away.


We need you to sign your posts.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: Calming Product

Lorna Cane
 


>>I am writing to ask if there is a calming product, safe for an IR horse, that I can give her while she is on "stall" rest.


I like Rescue Remedy.




Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

ksherbin@...
 


She means more than just IR and Cushing's occur together frequently. She means that as an IR/Cushing's horse ages, the IR goes away.

 

BTW, does it mean anything if Inky's leptin level goes down but the glucose/insulin values do not?

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