Date   

Re: does Inky need higher pergolide dose?

Nancy C
 

Hi Karin

Um....I'm not seeing it.  the ink you have sends me to 09.01.15 update.

You need to download the 09.01.15 (unless yo hvae it saved already on yoru compute), make you changes, rename as 11.22.2015 update and reload.

You may ahve already done this and it went elsewhere but a search of all files in ECHisotry8 for "inky" turns up only this one doc.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <ksherbin@...> wrote :


Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's

July 27, 2015

ECHistory8

 


Re: end of seasonal rise

Nancy C
 

The document in the files "weaning down pergolide" might help

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 


Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

To answer your questions about Prascend, I am unaware of any reports where drinking was affected rather than (or worse than eating), or of pergolide causing an enteritis.

While it's impossible to completely rule out a role for Prascend, it is at least as likely if not moreso that what you are seeing is really related to abdominal discomfort.  A short trial of no Prascend while increasing feeding should give you more answers.

Eosinophilic enteritis is a relatively newly appreciated problem in horses and may be localized (e.g. small intestine only)

Idiopathic Focal Eosinophilic Enteritis (IFEE), an Emerging Cause of Abdominal Pain in Horses: The Effect of Age, Time and Geographical Location on Risk


This form has **not** been linked to an allergic reaction and does not require long term steroids but often does need surgical resection of the isolated lesion (s).


More generalized forms have also been described:


http://vet.sagepub.com/content/19/5/486.full.pdf


I have personally had good results in a few IBD cases using oral bovine colostrum, starting at 200 mL/day.  Human article here:


http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/72/1/5.full.pdf


and a Pubmed search will yield many others.


Eleanor in Pa

www.drkellon.com

EC  Co-owner

Feb 2001






Re: end of seasonal rise

Chanda
 

As horses are individuals, it does vary, but typically sometime in December or January, maybe a little earlier or later depending on the horse.

My gelding's rise starts in mid-July and I'm still figuring out his end, but I want to say late December into January.

Chanda

 MT 9/04


Re: Calming Product for Daily Administration to Horse on Stall Rest

Paula Hancock
 

Hi Sally,
You can get Rescue Pastilles, which contain no sugar.  Or put drops on pellets and let soak in.


Best regards,

Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA

EC 2014     NCRplus2011   



---In EquineCushings@..., <larks.tabatha@...> wrote :

Yes... I have some Rescue Remedy, use it before my rides when I have a wild eyed horse.  I am wondering how you would you dose it for daily use?  This healing process may take weeks ;(

Was hoping for something that I could set up in her pre measured baggies of  pellets and supplements for the days that someone else is feeding for me..

Thanks again,
Sally in AZ
April 2013 

 


Re: end of seasonal rise

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lj - In normal horses, the seasonal rise is pretty much finished by mid-November.  PPID horses often start the rise earlier, and have it last longer, however.  This can vary from horse to horse, so it is not possible to say with certainty when Jesse's personal seasonal increase in ACTH will start to wind down.




---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

In US,  when does the rise end?  I have increased pergolide several times during jesses first seasonal rise while taking pergolide.   Id like to see how I did.  lj friedman san diego nov14     https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jesse%20and%20LJ%20Friedman/


 


Re: Swollen fetlocks - caused by IR?

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lisa - poor circulation is not a feature of IR, although an increase in inflammatory response is.  Sounds like Bonnie is well-controlled now, so hopefully an exaggerated inflammatory response is not the issue.

The ideal would be an ultrasound and x-ray of both her fetlocks, although I do realize that might not be in the cards.  I am totally unfamiliar with tick-borne diseases and venomous creatures in South Africa, so can't help there.

The standard approach to lower limb swellings, which is twice-daily cold-hosing and massage, might help.  The use of Jiaogulan may also help with improved blood circulation, but if this is a lymph-related problem, it may not help. I am not sure if it is easily available in your neck of the woods.  Here's the link to Jiaogulan information:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/

Dr. Bowker spoke about fascia at the most recent conference; massage right from the top of the lumbar area down to the hooves will engage more of the fascia, and could be more effective than just massage of the lower limbs.

I am so sorry Bonnie is having this problem! 


 


..... The vet says it's bad circulation and it is permanent and exercise will just keep it from getting worse.  Is this a symptom of IR?  Bad circulation? Is there anything that I can do about it or give her? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 


Re: Vet explains Cushing's horse getting skinny

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Karin - Sorry, I did not realize you had reported the actual number of the most recent ACTH.  24.3 is fine; I just wanted to be sure the ACTH wasn't up around 34, which can also be reported as "normal".



 

I didn't understand this comment: "also, double-check the actual ACTH numbers. PPID horses do better if the ACTH is in the middle range, not at the upper end of normal. "

 

Is 23.4 pg/mL considered in the high range of normal when the range is 9-35? Are you suggesting another test? The last one is from a month ago.The vet said she thought it was a good number and said to keep the pergolide dosage at 1 mg daily.

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's during seasonal rise

July 27, 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Inky%20Case%20History/

 


end of seasonal rise

lj friedman
 

In US,  when does the rise end?  I have increased pergolide several times during jesses first seasonal rise while taking pergolide.   Id like to see how I did.  lj friedman san diego nov14     ECHistory8

 


Re: does Inky need higher pergolide dose?

ksherbin@...
 


Nancy,

 

I thought I had updated the files! I inputted the results from the 10/27 tests onto the document on file. If that didn't work then I will do what I have done before, create a new document and upload that. I don't know any other way to do it apparently!

 

FYI: In July Inky's ACTH was 42.1 pg/mL. In October it 25.49, in a Cornell range of 9-35.

 

thanks for the link!

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's

July 27, 2015

ECHistory8

 


Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

Tracy H
 

Thank you Maggie. Have submitted request to join to add case history. Re: APF, will check with my vet. Due to the IBD, he is currently restricted to his meds, the timothy pellets and NOTHING else without vet's okay. We did try weaning him on. Started at .5 for five days, the .75 for five days, then 1mg. No adverse effects at all. On 1 mg dose for almost 12 weeks with only excellent response. That's when the weird water "testing" before he'd drink started.  Didn't think it could be related to the Prascend at the time. And maybe it's not related at all. 

Re: upping his dose, vet's preferred protocol is 6 weeks at new dose before retesting. In late Sept at 49, we had discussion about upping it. Given his excellent response at the time, the decision was to wait. It was based on the fact that the excessive sweating had abated. He was gaining back weight, his topline looked much better, his energy level was improved and he was bright and happy. Vet's thought was that symptoms were looking very well controlled with marked improvement. If we increased, and not knowing anything about his seasonal rise pattern....there was the possibility that by retest time in mid-November - the dose could be too high and that we could end up inducing the "pergolide veil" effect. If he wasn't responding so well, we'd probably have done it. Do some horses who seem to have no adverse effects at the beginning, develop signs of intolerance at 12 weeks in? One odd thing about the not drinking is that if he was under dosed  wouldn't the symptom be more likely to a resumption of the excessive drinking we saw before? Then again, maybe the water issue doesn't have anything to do with this but we can't find any other reason.

Tracy H (RI)
2015


Re: Swollen fetlocks - caused by IR?

Lorna Cane
 




>>(It's been a while since I last posted on the group and I can't seem to find my signature with links to my mares details)



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Lisa%20&%20Bonnie%20SA/


Add your location to your signature,too.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 



Re: does Inky need higher pergolide dose?

Nancy C
 

Hi Karin

I don't see dates or updates on your blood work in your CH. Would really help us if you can load that and the lyme results there.

If take a look at the Liphook graph in the files you will see the trend now for many horses is for ACTH to be going down. Here's a link to just one of their graphs:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=liphook

 


Lethargy is a nonspecific symptom so I'd be monitoring and noting others for clues to his control.  Here's a link to Patti's check list of symptoms if you don't already have it.

Increase Pergolide Message (Scale of Symptoms) by Patti

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988

More ideas in pergolide 101 doc on ecirhorse.org.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
ECIR Group Mod



---In EquineCushings@..., <ksherbin@...> wrote :


Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's

July 27, 2015

ECHistory8

 


Swollen fetlocks - caused by IR?

Lisa Toms
 

Hi there, my IR mare who is now controlled IR, developed a swollen fetlock first in her right hind, then a week later in her left hind.  She was lame for a week with each hind and the vet put her on a strong anti-inflams and antibiotics for 3 weeks. I am guessing that the swelling either came from kicking a pole which she does when she is eating and warns the other mare to stay away or from a tick bite infection.  It's been over 6 weeks now and the llameness is now gone, the swelling however is still there.  The one hind is a puffy swelling and the other a lumpy swelling.  The vet says it's bad circulation and it is permanent and exercise will just keep it from getting worse.  Is this a symptom of IR?  Bad circulation? Is there anything that I can do about it or give her? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 


Lisa & Bonnie

(It's been a while since I last posted on the group and I can't seem to find my signature with links to my mares details)



Re: yea sac 1026

Nancy C
 

Hi lj

Yes, I see you've been looking for answer for this in several places. Here's my opinion based on my own experiences and what I believe I have learned from Dr Kellon, my own clients and members here.

While it is trendy, most horses don't meed probiotics.  If you feed them a forage based, well balanced diet, their gut will work as it is supposed too.  Some times age, illness, sudden changes in foods and forages, etc., will require you to give them some help.

We'll often see members using this to build back weight or muscle in the PPID or IR horse but it is usually other issues that need addressing, such as better control with pergolide or diet, or teeth or dewormer, etc.

So unless you have other symptoms you are worried about, I'd put even the 24¢ a day elsewhere for now.

Hope you find this answer helpful.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
ECIR Group Mod


---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

I posted this message in echousekeeping prevíously.



Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

Maggie
 

Hi "silversnaffle",

Welcome to the group!  You've sure been through the wringer with your warmblood!  Sorry you are having so much trouble!  Since you are a regular reader at our website, ECIRhorse.org, I won't go into the basics of the DDT/E, since the website covers all of that.  To get the best answers to all of your questions, we need you to fill out a CH on your boy.  To do that, you will need to join our sister group called ECHistory8, a filing cabinet for current CH's.  It should not take long to get approved and then just follow the instruction on the main page to fill out a CH on your boy.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  In addition to the "fill in the blanks" on the CH form, at the very end is a "comments" section that you may want to use to copy and paste the information you have provided in your post.  This will put all the important facts in one easily accessible place for the volunteers.

Meanwhile, I had a couple of thoughts when I read your post.  I am sure others will chime in with their thoughts as well.  

I do see that you weaned onto the pergolide, but did not see mention if you used APF.  Did you try that?  APF is an adaptogen that can really help with the symptoms related to the "pergolide veil".  You might be able to pick some up at a local tack or feed store.  It's also available in online catalogs, and on their website:  http://www.auburnlabs.com/html/eqProdGen.html   I'm sorry, but I have no experience, nor do I remember reading about any horses on the list where decreased water consumption is a veil symptom, but I haven't been around as long as many of the other members.  You did also mention that he wasn't eating as enthusiastically.   If that in combination with the decreased water consumption your warmblood is experiencing are his veil symptoms, the APF should be very helpful.

I also see that you weaned onto the pergolide, which is good, but it may be that you didn't wean on slowly enough.  We recommend that you start with 0.25mg for 3-4 days, and increase by 0.25mg every 3-4 days until you reach your target dose.  Since Prascend is scored to be broken in half, but not recommended to break into quarters, you can dissolve 1/2 tab (0.5mg) in 10cc water, administer 5cc (0.25mg) and save the other 5cc in the fridge for administration the next day.  May be that your boy needs this slower wean onto the drug.

The other thing that jumped out at me is the ACTH of 49 in late September after 6 weeks on 1mg of Prascend.  Since you mention the "seasonal rise", I'm guessing that you may have already read that section on the ECIRhorse website.  If not, here's a link to that part so that you can read the details:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise   The seasonal rise is period of the year (fall in the northern hemisphere) when all horses have a natural rise in their ACTH, but PPID horses can have an exaggerated rise over an extended period of time.  Many (most) horses need an increase in their pergolide to get them through the seasonal rise.  We like to see their ACTH down in the middle of the normal range (Cornell 9-35, so mid teen's to low 20's).  Since your boy was doing well on 1mg of Prascend in late September, but his ACTH was still high at 49, it makes sense that he would have benefited from an increase in his pergolide at that time.  Many PPID horses don't peak their ACTH until October (or even November), so it's possible that his ACTH continued to rise after the late September ACTH of 49, causing him the problems that started in late October.  Some early PPID horses do need pergolide only during the seasonal rise.  The only way to know is to test again.  We recommend that the horse be on a set dose for 3 weeks before testing to see if that dose is controlling the ACTH.  

Those are my thoughts as I read your post.  Hopefully others will chime in with their knowledge/experience.

We ask members to sign each post with their name (first is fine), date of joining, and general location, which helps us to help you source products.  Also, once you get your CH done, please add a link to it in your signature as well.  It really helps us to find it faster and to answer questions faster.  Thanks for your help with that!  And keep us posted on your boy!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA



Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

tara sullivan
 

Ian chime in here please. Ok. Please confirm this for me as I do get my mare's meds from Thriving Pets.  I order the 1.5mg capsule dose...which to me would be like giving her 1.149 tablets of prascend....yes??  Just a little more than 1mg of pergolide.  I thought I had this down and now not so sure.
Thanks all
Tara and Divina
2014 NY


yea sac 1026

lj friedman
 

I posted this message in echousekeeping prevíously. this site prob better.

Dr. Kellon recommended this product for one of my non-Cushing's non-IR horses to avoid digestive upset during a hay feed change. I'm wondering if this product could be given  prophylactically   for Cushing's IR horse just because? The price of this product is very inexpensive at approximately $.25 per day. Lj Friedman san diego



does Inky need higher pergolide dose?

ksherbin@...
 

 His latest Cornell test shows 23.4 pg/mL, in a range of 9-35. The vet said that is fine.

 

Is it? Or should it be lower? He seems okay, a bit lethargic, but don't know if that's the Cushing's or if he is just becoming lazy. He tested negative for Lyme, btw.

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's

July 27, 2015

ECHistory8

 


Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

eknox217@...
 

Sadly, I had to have my horse, Oscar, euthanized earlier this week. He was suffering with acute and chronic laminitis. We have been trying to help him for several months, but it was not to be. His coffin bone was sinking, and it became clear that he could not suffer through the winter. I believe it was the right decision. Before the end stage of his illness, we thought that the chronic laminitis may have been caused by Cushings disease, so I started him on Pergolide. I ordered Prascend through Valley Vet. 

The Prascend 1 mg pergolide mesylate tablets came as 60 tablets in six blister packs of 10 tablets each. I used 20 tablets (2 blister packs). If someone is interested in purchasing the remaining 40 tablets in four unopened blister packs, I would be happy to send them to you. I paid $112 for the 60 tabs. Do you think $60 is a fair price for the remaining 40 tablets? Please contact me via eknox217@.... Thank you.

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