Date   

Re: Pergolide Mesylate vs. Prascend

Lorna Cane
 

.

>>My vet ordered 1.25 mg of Pergolide for my horse and I find out that if I want that dosage, it has to be ordered as what ever the value of the Mesylate is to equal the 1.25 mg of Pergolide.

Hi Tom,

Have you spoken to the pharmacy your vet used to confirm that they only supplied you with 1.25mg pergolide mesylate,as opposed to 1.25mg of pergolide?
I'm thinking that a pharmacy should know the difference.
Does the label give you any information in this regard?

Frustrating indeed.





Pergolide Mesylate vs. Prascend

Tom Williams <teetexastom@...>
 

Is there a way to find out which compounding pharmacies will equate with Prascend when they compound?

It seems to me that if a vet orders say 1 mg of pergolide in a compound form then that is what should be delivered. Prascend says on their label that they give 1 mg of Pergolide as 1.31 mg of Pergolide Mesylate.

My vet ordered 1.25 mg of Pergolide for my horse and I find out that if I want that dosage, it has to be ordered as what ever the value of the Mesylate is to equal the 1.25 mg of Pergolide.

This seems like a bait and switch to me.

Also, if I go on the web. most of the compounders will only discuss dosage and price with a vet.

My vet is willing to order for me, but he does not have the time and is not willing to spend hours on the phone to get me the best deal! I dont blame him. If I can do the leg work in advance, he will place the order in my name.

My original order was with Wedgewood. I am not pleased to find I went down in dosage as compared to Prascend instead of up in dosage.

Can the link be posted to the compunding Pharmacies?

My Name Is Tom. I live in So. Texas and not many vets here have a great degree of familiarity with cushings. One just suggested putting the horse down as the treatment was too much trouble and too expensive to deal with.

My horse is a 21 year old Paso ino gelding named Tito. I do not have any recent case history except he did fine the last year on the 1 mg prascend and appears to be going a little back on the Pergolide dosage of 1.25.

Gracias.





update on princess../sue

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hello everyone,
princess is doing fine. she abscessed a week+ ago. on her club hoof. I'm so glad her hoofs are taking turns abscessing. shes clear of infection and abscesses  I'm doing a benadine10% and powder sugar mix.. you mix it like toothpaste and put on daily in all the groves, it keeps the infection out and hardens the areas you apply it to.. but you have to make sure there is no infection. This is what Judith told me to do. shes the vet from pa and she does the ozone stuff. I ordered the ozone generator and I have papers to sign and send them back with payment. this should be after thanksgiving..
it has been a very long and hard road for princess and I and costly, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. I see her in her dry lot this spring if not sooner. she will most likely  have to have boots on when she goes out, that's ok . Jeremiah said it takes a healthy horse to regrow a new sole about 4 months so it will take princess a little longer.. 
I could of saved a lot of money and pain for her if I just could of found a ok blacksmith.  from now on Jeremiah or my self will be the only ones that touch princess feet. for everyone out there that wants to save there horse if the horse has it in them to fight it can be done.we are proof!!!! we still have a long road ahead but its getting shorter and less compacted. hope I spelled that right?
Jeremiah is coming out saturday to do her hoofs and I'm cheating and having him do the other 2 for me.. this is the best princess has been in over a year...
have a great thanksgiving..
Sue & princess
Oh 6/11


Re: were there any local vets at the conference?

Nancy C
 

A bit more info...

In total there were 17 vets from Texas at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conf. 

A very good representation!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ecir-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <jazzerfrn@...> wrote :

Yes! There were some local vets at the conference in Georgetown. My vet was there, Theresa Dwyer (Dr T) from Brazos Valley Equine Hospital in Salado (Brazos Valley Equine Hospital was one of the conference Benefactors). She has several clients in Georgetown. She has been very open to to all of this information and willing to learn the protocols of the ECIR Group Inc. Also registered for the event were 2 vets from Moore Equine Medical and Dental: Nick Moore and Kendal Metcalf. I don't know either of them personally, but they are based in Georgetown.

Fran in Texas
July2005


Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

 

Re: escaped electrical currents and not drinking--

An old horseman that rubbed some pretty nice TBs back in the day told me that back when the ubiquitous Powerfloat hit the dentistry scene, he had more than a few horses stop drinking bc of sensitive gums/teeth. I always thought that was interesting.

FWIW,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Praziquantel Reaction

 

Hi Kim, etc

I havent followed the whole thread, but I'll offer this:

My PPID/IR mare is well-controlled but persistently hyperglycemic (>100mg/dL; usually in the 130s). Ive done some recent testing to make sure she is not having ill-effects from ongoing hyperglycemia (glucosuria negative; microalbuminuria negative, etc).

I have a veterinary glucometer and check her BGs approx once per week, so I have a pretty good database on this mare

She is + for strongyles on recent fecal egg count so Im doing an ivermectin/praziquantel oral dewormer now, as I usually do for any low shedders at this time of year

If you want, I will check BGs on my mare before & after administering the dewormer to document any rises. I do not use Zimecterin Gold bc of the anecdotal reports of gastric upset, et al that has long been associated with it. Ill use Quest if that is what you used

Historically my mare does not have reactions with dewormers and so im not too worried in performing this "experiment". This mare does have pretty ugly reactions to vaccines in the last few years, however.

One caveat to all of this is that I wait to do *anything* until after the perceived seasonal rise -- so even though her fecal was positive several weeks ago, I was *not* about to upset the apple cart with deworming, etc until late Nov or whenever it appeared the mare was tolerating stressors better. She is now starting to feel better, verified by her behavior under saddle and how she's recovering from rides (eg, thru Sept, Oct, and most of this month poor Pinky was showing stress by just trailering locally, and her lower legs were holding heat & edema for several days after these very low-key walk-only rides). This past week she is finally perking up and had no edema after a couple rides trailering out. I have no scientific basis to believe the seasonal rise caused the intolerances to exercise, but its just a gut feeling I have. So by these onservations, I think its "more safe" now to give the dewormer. Again -- these are my observations only with this particular horse and do not necessarily reflect purported observations on this group. ;)

Not sure if any of this will help, but Ill be glad to experiment with Pinky by checking BGs concurrent w deworming if you or anyone thinks there may be any practical benefit of doing so.

I will try to read through the whole thread this evening, although unfortunately Im way behind on quite a bit of whats been happening on here.

Best of luck to your horse,

Kerry in NY
Licensed Vet Tech
Sept 2014
Pinky PPID/IR
Tofurky IR


Re: Praziquantel Reaction

kimgedckewagner
 

Dr. K,

How do I find out more?  Routine fecals (which I realize don't show everything) have been negative so I guess I'd be surprised to find out he was carrying a massive worm load.

His glucose for 10 years has never been much off 100, so what else could explain the rise to 130?  We tested greater than 12 hours after the wormer had been given, for sure.  Obviously I didn't pull glucose before worming, but if I can get my hands on a glucometer again, I can record before and after differences....not that I'm using quest again.

Have wormed him for a decade with Zimectrin Gold with no similar response.

"you can always use double dose pyrantel pamoate, 2 doses at interval of 2 weeks, or a month of daily pyrantel tartrate instead. "
Is this in replacement for Z-G or Quest which has always been gold standard for tapeworms and resistant strongyles?

Many thanks,
Kim and a sore Color Guard,
Winter 2005
New HIll, NC


Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Just to throw a nonmedical cause out there, I know of several horses that have done this (stop drinking) because they were shocked by stray currents.  It's actually pretty common.

'Stray Voltage'--a Shocking Barnyard Woe

 

Stray Voltage | www.heartlandpower.com

 

Eleanor in Pa
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Re: PPID, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Corticosteroids

Lisa S
 

<<Does anyone have experience with Prascend where drinking is more of a problem than eating? Whatever is going on, the drinking stops and he still eats but not the scarfing it down he usually does? >>

No, but my IR gelding experienced something very similar when he was NOT on Prascend. 

Like yours, he had always had a voracious appetite. He had always been a good drinker, too, and liked to dunk his hay, at least he always did so prior to his IR diagnosis and subsequent management changes. 

His episodes of not drinking happened maybe 18 months or so into his laminitis rehab. He was doing well otherwise, but suddenly stopped drinking. I went through all the steps: thoroughly scrubbing buckets and tubs, rinsing with distilled water, offering clean water from different sources at different temperatures, flavoring the water, etc. After 48 hours or so he was getting dehydrated but all his other vital signs were normal. We opted to put some water in him via stomach tube because of my fears that he would develop colic. We did this for 2-3 days before putting him on IV fluids due to my fears that the frequent tubing would cause problems. I have a lot of fears! LOL

After 48 hours or so on IV fluids he began to show some interest in drinking. Initially I could only get him to drink water flavored with Sonic green apple slushes (his pre-IR favorite!) I gradually reduced the amount of flavoring until after several days he started drinking quite normally again.

Never did find out what his deal was, but I wanted to throw this out there since I might have attributed this strange behavior to a medication or diet change had either one of those been potential causes. As it is we do not even have a good guess what triggered his refusal to drink. Thank goodness hubby is a vet and we had all the stuff on hand to treat him as we did! Otherwise I might still be paying off the bill...


Lisa in TX
Zippy, Rita and Bunny, IR
June 2010


Condolences for Oscar

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Elena - I am so sorry for your loss.  Thinking of you at this sad time.

Sincerely,

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

EC Case History 1




---In EquineCushings@..., <eknox217@...> wrote :

Sadly, I had to have my horse, Oscar, euthanized earlier this week..........


Re: were there any local vets at the conference?

 

Yes! There were some local vets at the conference in Georgetown. My vet was there, Theresa Dwyer (Dr T) from Brazos Valley Equine Hospital in Salado (Brazos Valley Equine Hospital was one of the conference Benefactors). She has several clients in Georgetown. She has been very open to to all of this information and willing to learn the protocols of the ECIR Group Inc. Also registered for the event were 2 vets from Moore Equine Medical and Dental: Nick Moore and Kendal Metcalf. I don't know either of them personally, but they are based in Georgetown.

Fran in Texas
July2005


Re: anhidrosis with PPID, IR, panting, metformin, antihistamines and weather changes

 

Hi, I haven't been on the group in over a week, so perhaps this has been addressed (apologies if so)

My mare was acutely anhidrotic when on "Tri-Hist" (antihistamine) several summers ago.  This was well before I knew she was IR/PPID.  I was conditioning her in summer for eventing, meaning long trot and gallop sets, and I was amazed that she was so fit (she came back to barn not sweating at all).  Duh, stupid me -- she wasn't *able* to sweat!  My trainer nearly yanked me off the mare and screamed at me to hose her down pronto -- I later googled "Tri-Hist / Anhidrosis" and found several anecdotal reports (mostly CotH-type forums; but several, FWIW)  As soon as we stopped the Tri-Hist...voila, normal sweating resumed.  Have not had any issues since.

Good luck, I hope you find your answer soon and as easily as I did...

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

Sharon Manning
 

Hi Nancy,
I await with bated breath as I have a empty pocket book her at the holidays.
I am spending 334.07 per month just on CP.
---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

Hi Sharon

Without getting too far into the weeds, that is what we are trying to sort out.

Nancy C in NH
Feburary 2003
ECIR Group Mod


Re: Pergolide versus Pergolide Mesylate Dosing #pergolidestrength

Sharon Manning
 

my CP is from Per Health Pharmancy out of AZ.
Label says, " Pergolide Mesylate".
Sharon
E TN
2005


Re: Calming Product for Daily Administration to Horse on Stall Rest

Sharon Manning
 

Hi Sally,
I had a mare many years ago with a broken leg and had to be stalled for 6+months. Low S/S hay, of course and we used several different calming supplements. Like Magnesium. I know that Uckele has a paste, and powder called Focus Calm and also just Taurine. Of course this was long before I new anything about the balanced diet recommended here but you could ask Dr. Kellon if these products would be worth it above and beyond the Balanced diet. 
When I am stressed and take extra Mag. I can tell the difference.
Good Luck,
Sharon
E TN
2005

 


Re: getting a mini to eat Prascend.

The Pitchfork Princess <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Hi Barbara,
For more ideas on ways to get Lily to take her pergolide, check out this thread:

From the Files: Treats for IR horses: 
Lots of information in there to help you find a great "carrier" for pergolide. 

Don't worry too much, with patience and perverseness you will find a dosing method that both you and Lily can agree on. 
Keep in mind many of the suggested foods might be foreign to Lily.  She'll be suspicious of them, especially if you try introducing the foods with pergolide in them.  I generally have introduced the treats for a few weeks before trying the pergolide in them.  

Also check out the "Pulling it Together" folder in the files - there are many articles that you might find interesting for setting up your management as well as introducing new ways for Lily to take her pergolide. 


- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

​​
   
View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials



Announcement - Tis the Season

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


A Tis the Season 2 for 1 sale is in effect until January 15, 2016 at drkellon.com.  All courses and subscriptions to The Horse's Mouth are buy 1 get 1 free.  Order any combination of courses you wish, for yourself or as gifts.  Enter your free choice under Instructions to Merchant or drop me an  e-mail.

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



FACT: Good Hay Doesn’t Mean High Sugar

 

Dear ECIR Outreach Group Members,


I have been analyzing data and writing articles for the ECIR Group Facebook page to raise awareness on how the quality of hay affects various nutrients. Last week we posted data showing why "Low NSC" is a poor index of safety for IR horses. This week we're digging deeper into the nutrient values. For those of you that aren't on Facebook, the article is posted below.


Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri - USA - Dec 2005


 

TAKE HOME MESSAGE: If you’re choosing low or poor quality hay thinking that you are significantly reducing carbohydrates, then stop. Good quality forage can be also be safe (less than 10% ESC + starch) without sacrificing nutrients and minerals.


For those that want more details, continue reading.


Last week we talked about some common recommendations when it comes to choosing hay for horses with PPID and/or IR. Once again, we would like to stress that the ECIR Group does not support recommendations to drastically restrict feeding or to feed only poor or overly mature hay. A common mistake by those told to seek “low quality hay” is lack of knowledge about how hay is graded. Therefore, they choose the lowest of the low, the standing grass skeletons in which there is very little nutrient availability.


Before we dive into the specifics, we need to be clear on some terms that you will find on your forage analysis. We’ll limit these terms to the few that we’re going to use in the next few days so it doesn’t get overwhelming.


Measures of Forage Quality: Acid and Neutral Detergent Fiber (ADF) and (NDF). ADF is the least digestible fiber in forage that includes lignin, cellulose and silica. As ADF increases, the nutrient (carbohydrate, protein, fat) digestibility decreases. NDF measures the structural components of the plant; cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin, etc. As NDF increases, consumption decreases. The higher the NDF, the lower the quality and the less palatable the forage.


Carbohydrates: Water Soluble Carbohydrates (WSC) = Fructans + simple sugars. Ethanol Soluble Carbohydrates (ESC) = Simple Sugars. Starch = starch. Because WSC includes simple sugars, we can estimate fructan by subtracting ESC from WSC, i.e., WSC – ESC = estimated fructan. Remember that fructan fermentation by bacteria in the hind-gut of the horse does not generate an appreciable glycemic response.


The data the ECIR Group report here are from over 100 hay samples collected from the same region, by the same individual, over the course of 5 years. All of these hays range from Grade 2 – 5, and are considered average to low quality according to the American Forage and Grassland Council Quality Standards for Hay.


Question 1: How does Quality affect carbohydrates? This question is important because many owners make hay choices based ONLY on “Low Sugar” therefore, we need to understand whether opting for low quality hay is worth it. Does Low Quality insure Low Sugar? To answer this question, we’ll use 3 carbohydrate measures. 1) Estimated fructan and 2) ESC and 3) starch. We will use % NDF as a measure of Hay Quality. We used linear regression to predict carbohydrate levels based on forage NDF. The assumptions for linearity and constant variance were met. Extreme outliers were excluded from the analysis.


Result 1: The predictor variable, %NDF had a mean of 54.9% (+/- 3.79), minimum 46.7%, maximum 66%. Hay Quality had no effect on estimated fructan (F(1,138) = .267, p = .61), with an R2 of .002. Mean estimated fructan was 6.7% (+/- 2.7%).  


Result 2: Hay Quality predicted lower simple sugars (ESC). There was a significant effect in that the higher the NDF (lower quality) the lower the simple sugars (F(1,138) = 14.8, p = .0002), with an R2 of .097. It is worth noting, however, that mean ESC was 6.9% (+/- 1.5%). Only 2 of the 140 samples were greater than 10% ESC. 


Result 3: Hay Quality had no effect on starch (F(1,138) = 1.17, p = .28), with an R2 of .008. Mean starch was .595% (+/- .42%). Mean ESC + starch was 7.4% (+/- 1.6%). Because starch has a moderate positive association with NDF and ESC a negative association, the regression analysis for ESC + starch was not informative or significant (p=.95).


Conclusion: Hay Quality (%NDF) did not have a significant effect on fructan or starch; both were equal whether the hay was of good, average or poor quality. Simple sugars did decrease along with Hay Quality. For each 1 % increase in NDF, simple sugars decreased by 0.13% (1 gram/lb of forage) however, simple sugars were less than 10% in 138 out of 140 samples (99%). 



were there any local vets at the conference?

lynn larson
 

Hi!
I thought there was a search option but I can't find it...

Anyway, I live in G'town TX, near where the conference had been.  I was wondering if any of the local vets went to the conference - is there a way to find that out?   If a vet actually went to the conference, I'd feel a little bit better about them being up to speed on things.

(Yes, I thought about asking them, but it's kind of hard to get answers ....)

thanks -



Re: getting a mini to eat Prascend.

Sherry Morse
 

I have the world's most finicky horse (no joke, she rejected carrots yesterday) so for her meds I put the pills in a 12cc syringe, add about 6cc of hot water to melt them and pop the whole thing in her mouth.  It's the only way I know for sure she's gotten her medication and I have to do this with anything she needs.

Sherry and Scarlet
PA 2014


From: "Barbara Vincent vincentbab19@... [EquineCushings]"
To: "EquineCushings@..."
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] getting a mini to eat Prascend.

 
Inside a peanut shell has worked in the past, but she rejected that yesterday.  Has anyone tried peanut butter?  It works so brilliantly for dog pills: sticky, hard to spit out, masks pill taste.
 



On Monday, November 23, 2015 6:24 AM, "spiral1957@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Barbara,

In addition to the great ideas from Chanda and Casey, some other ideas that work for some folks are hiding the pill in a grape or a prune, a peanut in the shell, or a small 1" piece of carrot with a hole cored out of the center.  Having trouble getting them to eat the pergolide is not exclusive to the Prascend, as you found out when she rejected the "Gourmed" tablets.   It must not taste too good to them no matter what it's hidden in!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA






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