Re: two doses of tramadol for laminitis

Nancy C

Tramadol has been discussed at length and often over the years.  Lots in the message archives.

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance


It would be helpful to have exact post, tweet, whatever so we can see if there is anything new there.  So far, not seeing anything new.

Found this


Exact quote from the media person is Oral tramadol use for laminitis: don't forget it as an option for pain management.


IME, and 100s here as well,  to get a horse comfortable and address best outcome for rehabilitation you need to remove the trigger,  fix the diet, address the trim, put him on a conformable surface. Add in jiaogulan.  Would recommend review of 2013 NO Laminitis conference proceedings, Kellon on Endothelin-1 and Bowker on Nerves, on Vascular and on Suspensory.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Support the work of the ECIR Group Inc.

Raise Money For Anything - An Online Fundraising Website | Razoo


---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

   from the vegas aaep, michelle anderson from the tweeted on a presentation from dec.06  she labled it as a top tweet      oral use of tramadol.... don't forget it as an option for pain management.  i can't find the subject matter  now.  lj friedman san diego   

Re: Supporting the mission of the ECIR Group Inc. while getting ready for the holidays

diane royall <dyroyall@...>

is anyone doing any research on the Chaste Tree Berries? I have had the best luck ever with it, so much easier and cheaper than all the meds and feed adjustments.

Re: two doses of tramadol for laminitis

lj friedman

i think this is a different .     from the vegas aaep, michelle anderson from the tweeted on a presentation from dec.06  she labled it as a top tweet      oral use of tramadol.... don't forget it as an option for pain management.  i can't find the subject matter  now.  lj friedman san diego   

[ECHoof] may I ask for guidance and/or markups, please?


Posted this in ECHoof by mistake -
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: rmdkc101@... [ECHoof] <ECHoof@...>
Date: Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:59 AM
Subject: [ECHoof] may I ask for guidance and/or markups, please?
To: ECHoof@...

I have updated Slim Shady's  case history and added films and photos to his album.  Lavinia, may I ask for your time in reviewing the trim and films and provide guidance?  Vet arrived to film without the requested barium paste , stuck the wire on the front of the hoof past the hairline, etc., and Slim was standing a bit wonky on the blocks, to my eye, but I hope you can still use these.  So frustrating.


Vet thinks we have progress but he still looks so rotated to me. I'm afraid for him, though it was only October  that the toes began to be backed so maybe his progress has been good for that amount of time.    I am now taking over trimming him myself, bad back and all,  and want to do the best I can for him, like all of us.


 He is doing pretty well, wears boots 12 hours and out of them 12, and we have some scuffing and flaking going on as a result,  as you can see, but all in all he tolerates the booting well.  Out of boots, he will take a couple of "giving" steps for every 20 or so, and I am a bit confused by that as I see him not give to harder ground and sometime give when on soft ground and shavings.   You can see an abscess track on the RF  x ray  --  I have been soaking him in Epsom salts to help it drain, so maybe abscess material movement pain is at play.   


 Thank you very much for your time.  I really appreciate it.  


Robyn & Slim Shady, 15 yr old TWH


Joined 2012 groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/ 1848954052

Case History:  ECHistory8

This is ECHistory8, the current ECHistory Group to upload NEW case histories or move an existing case history to. This group is for ECIR Group members only. ...
Preview by Yahoo


This is ECHistory8, the current ECHistory Group to upload NEW case histories or move an existing case history to. This group is for ECIR Group members only. ...
Preview by Yahoo


Supporting the mission of the ECIR Group Inc. while getting ready for the holidays

Nancy C

Year-end is always a busy time!  The year is closing in on us fast and we know you are getting many requests for donations to many worthy causes. Many thanks to  those of you who have chosen the ECIR Group Inc.

A lot of us are still shoping. is a great way to give while shopping. $10 New Member Bonus for Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.
Three important details -
    1.    New iGive members only (never joined before).
    2.    You must use this special link (see below) to join. You must join before 12:01 a.m., Sunday, Dec. 14, 2015.
Donate to Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc. | Fundraiser | Raise Money Online - iGive


    3.    You must shop at one of over 1,700 stores (actually buy something, window shopping doesn't count, and neither do purchases at Amazon) by January 10, 2016. Many equine related stores discussed here, are on iGive.

There are some great last minute holiday shopping deals at iGive. You can help Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc., and at the same time save time and money. Every purchase you make will help, even after the bonus period ends. You'll feel good, and you’ll do good.

While you are shopping anytime through the year, ECIR can benefit through iGive and Amazon Smile if you designate the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc. as your charity of choice.

The average shopper is raises over $30 a year on iGive. Many are raising $100 or $200 a year, at no cost to ECIR Group Inc. or to themselves.

Folks who wish to contribute direct tax deductible donations may do so quickly and securely  from the DONATE button on or ECIR Facebook or directly through Donor directed fund.

Stock donations may also be made via Stock Donator

With grateful thanks,

The Directors, Officers, Volunteers and Supporters of ECIR nonprofit.

The mission of the ECIR Group Inc. is to improve the welfare of equines with metabolic disorders via a unique interface between basic research and real-life clinical experience.  Prevention of laminitis is the ultimate goal.  The ECIR Group serves the scientific community, practicing clinicians and owners by focusing on investigations most likely to quickly, immediately and significantly benefit the welfare of the horse.  EIN: 45-3859561.

Re: 20 plus year arabian just diagnosed with Cushings


Hi Sabine,

We really need to see the details about Nuggy to help you better.  Please fill out a case history on him.  All the information you need to do that is in my original post to you:

You have a diagnosis of PPID.  Use the pergolide to treat that and start Nuggy on the emergency diet.  In absence of the tests for IR (insulin, glucose, and leptin) just treat him as though he is Insulin Resistant!  It can't hurt him and will most likely help him!  

I don't understand what you mean by " that has been very hard on my brain because they are all pouting or copy catting Nuggy s veil."  Can you explain what you mean by that?

Please sign each time you post with your name, date of joining, and general location.  Once you get your case history filled out, please add a link to it in your signature as well.  Thanks!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response 

ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?


My 15yo Anglo-Arab eventer has just been tested for the first time and has an ACTH level of 40.  He is completely asymptomatic and quite fit and well.  

The vet has said to re-test him in 6 months time. He said that we wouldn't think about medicating until the blood level reached 70-80.  I'm desperate to keep his level below that, as if and when we need to start medicating , that will mean retiring him as he needs 6 monthly cortisone injections for a hock spur and I understand the cortisone and peroglide are contra-indicated.

So, what can I do in the meantime to ensure his levels remain low?  I am trying to eliminate as much sugar for his diet as possible and am about to start him in Chaste Berry.

Is there anything else?   

Thank you 

Re: REPOST: need advice on when to test Frisky


I have desensitized to needles, by snapping a rubber band on the shoulder or neck or where ever the shots will be given. Just a quick snap as you are running your hand down the neck. Worked for me.

Re: 20 plus year arabian just diagnosed with Cushings

sabine Rossow

Thank you so much for welcoming Nuggy and me to your group and I guess I have to rob a bank now to pay for all these tests, arrange different paddocks for Nuggy and his girls. sometimes he is good and sometimes he is off and everyone is ticked off at me for not coming out with beetpulp and sweetfeed. that has been very hard on my brain because they are all pouting or copy catting Nuggy s veil. I have no grass really since we are in a mild winter. the only way to soak hay for him will be putting him in a separate paddock. lots and lots of things to consider now.

I will be touch once I get the results of the test for cushings and sadly the other ones will have to wait a bit til I scrape 1000 dollars for my vet together:(

Re: Questions about Acth testing throughout the year and Pergolide dosage changes.

Lorna Cane

Hi Merle,

Here are some links to good answers to your questions.

You can also go to the Pergolide Database to see how very many horses here are on pergolide doses much higher than 3 mg - for your vet's information.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Questions about Acth testing throughout the year and Pergolide dosage changes.


1.  What is the recommended schedule for Acth testing throughout the year?  What months are most pertinent?

2.  Most especially, when should the test for the fall rise be done and when should Pergolide dosage increases be made to prevent Fall Laminitis?  By mid July? 

3. Let's say you need to increase the dosage for the fall rise...does this necessarily mean you need to decrease the dosage for next spring? Or does the dosage just stay the same all year and keep going higher every fall?  And when should decreasing the dose be done? February?

4.  What is the target Acth result?  Is any value within the expected normal range ok? 

5.  How does the Acth test result relate to the necessary dosage of Pergolide?  How do you know how much Pergolide is needed?

I really need help with determining the correct dose.  As it is, I am making the decision about the Pergolide dose; with my vet going along, because he doesn't seem to know much about Cushings.  He is also against using compounded Pergolide (due to not FDA approved), but he understands I have no choice due to the high price of Prascend.  Vet is worried that the 3 mg compounded dose my horse is on is too much, but I think it's too low! He says most horses are fine on 1 mg of Prascend.   He also thinks if test results show high Acth, then compounded pergolide must not be to expected since it's not FDA approved!!!

Merle, Dec 2014, NE Texas


Re: New ACTH Numbers / Prascend Dose and Recent xrays

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Hilary,

It seems the post I sent with the explanation for the mark-ups went "poof" so am re-posting.

I added the mark-ups to Angel's photo album:

In general, the toes are too long horizontally, heels under run and a bit too high, bars are somewhat excessive and tending to lean outward. There are medial-lateral imbalances which have been going on for some time and that have contributed to the development of the side bone as well as to the hoof capsules being displaced to the outside. Distal descent (aka sinking) that wasn't present in the January xrays, soles a bit thin (RF more so than left). Although it looks like there is too much foot vertically, there actually isn't any extra height due to the bony column sitting deeper inside the hoof capsule than it should be (sinking). The RF has a slightly clubby configuration but not the LF. Both are being exaggerated by the heels being left too high. I believe one of the pix that is labeled "RF sole resized" is actually a hind, likely the LH? All of the coronary bands show upward bulging to either side of the center of he toes, more pronounced on the fronts than the rears. This is a result of the toes being backed but the adjacent hoof wall areas not being adjusted as well. The breakover of the front feet has been shifted away from the true center of the leg, resulting in hoof capsules that are quite twisted. The unevenly run forward heelsare compounding this issue. It appears as if the feet are being trimmed to artificially face straight ahead even tho the legs do not. This is putting quite a bit of torque onto the joints.

RF/LF xrays: Purple line shows where the bony column alignment should be. Pink are the areas where is breaks back at P1-P2 juncture and forward at P2-P3. Purple arrow shows the shadow of the bars arching high under, and jamming, the wings of the coffin bone - need to lower both the heels and bars here to reduce the forward push on the P2-P3 juncture. Blue line follows the angle of the tight, new wall growth. Green is where the toe need to be backed in the horizontal plane and beveled gently under. Yellow 1 is where the coronary band is, yellow 2 is the extensor process. These two lines should coincide or be very close together. The distance between them denotes the sinking.

LF lateral: Green line follows the angle of the new growth. Gray is the excess toe and heel "erased" for an idea how it would look. Red is the DO NOT TOUCH HERE area on the bottom of the foot. Lowering the heels only means that this are needs to be left alone to protect the already thin sole under the leading edge of the coffin bone.The resulting hoof capsule will look a bit odd but that is what happens during rehab. If you trim following the current angle of the bottom of the foot in relation to the ground you don't make any corrective change. (RF same idea).

LF dorsal: Dark blue line is level. light blue are the bulges to either side of the center of the hoof that are due to the excess length in the hoof wall on either side of the area that has been trimmed back at the center of the toe. Purple are the flared, excess areas that are causing the bulges. Bring these back into their correct place adjacent to the backed toe area. The medial wall has actually collapsed in and then flared, resulting in the lateral wall now being functionally taller.

LF sole: Light blue is where the heel buttresses are currently located. Yellow is where they should be, even with the widest part of the frog and with each other. Need to move them gradually backward to their true location and reduce the overgrown bars at the same time. No bar amputation, just judicious taming over time as they are providing crucial support to the coffin bone due to the damage to the laminar connections. Red is the location of the true tip of the frog - anything beyond that is only stretched-forward old frog material that is moving along with the long toes and stretched sole like pieces on a conveyor belt. Light purple is where the outer perimeter of the hoof wall should be - needs to be brought inward by rasping from above. (RF sole same).

RH sole: Same as LF sole mark-up but note that the lateral buttress is further forward than the medial one. Need to work to get it back even with the medial one.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

Re: two doses of tramadol for laminitis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

--In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

i read a blip about 2 doses of tramadol to achieve painrelief with laminitis   do we use tramadol?


First, if it's the study Kathy found, it's not two doses, it's the effect of two different trial doses.

The higher oral dose reduced weight shifting and was tolerated for a week. There were only four horses.


Tramadol is a narcotic.  During use, there is the risk of gut slowing and agitation. Dependency can develop with withdrawal when it is stopped.

This drug also increases concentrations of serotonin in the brain with risk of withdrawal similar to that seen with SSRI tranquilizers.  High serotonin might also make it contraindicated in PPID horses because serotonin is a dopamine antagonist.

Eleanor in PA

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001

Re: More sore day after trim, ok to give bute?

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Dee,

Nothing to be embarrassed about - we've seen far worse issues on horses being managed with professional help. It is such a pervasive problem that it was the topic for my presentation at the ECIR No Laminitis! Conference last month.

Be happy to do the mark-ups for you, just say the word. Also know you aren't alone in tackling this problem yourself as there are my members here who have found themselves in the same position and have very successfully rehabbed their horses' feet.

Unless your name happens be Gates or Rockafeller, money is always a consideration. We all do what we can, as we can. Just prioritize and go from there. Xrays are really helpful but certainly not mandatory - not having them just means you need to make certain assumptions and be a bit more careful with the changes you make until you see how the horse is going to react.

Hang in there, take one day at a time and soon everything will fall into place.

We ask that you take a moment before hitting send to delete (most of) the message you are replying to so that the posts don't become seemingly endless reams of repeat info that bury the new. Thanks for your help with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: two doses of tramadol for laminitis

Kathy Brinkerhoff

Hi Lj,

As you know, it is very difficult for anyone to respond to a question about a "blip" you read and much more helpful to include a link.   Not sure what you mean when you mention the Las Vegas equine conference.  Was there a presentation on Tramadol?   Have you searched the archives?  

Is this the information that you are referring to from this study?

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12

two doses of tramadol for laminitis

lj friedman

i read a blip about 2 doses of tramadol to achieve painrelief with laminitis   do we use tramadol?  (from recent les vegas equine conference)  lj friedman san diego   

Re: Orchard grass vs bermuda

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Any of these hays could be low enough in sugar/starch and none are guranteed to be.  You just have to test!  That is far more important than the iron level.  If you just test for sugar/starch initially and request e-mail results you should get them quickly.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Re: Management and diet for Cushings mare with gastric ulcers

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

I wouldn't overlook the possibility that some of her issues are related to a jump in ACTH because of the seasonal rise.  Chewing issues certainly aren't unusual at her age but can be compounded by loosening of the teeth caused by uncontrolled PPID.

I would suggest checking her ACTH, insulin and glucose. Do not fast and keep hay available at all times. In the meantime, no grass access unless muzzle is completely sealed and hold off on alfalfa.  It is overrated for helping ulcers and may exacerbate IR in some horses.

Saliva production is constant.  Exercise per set does not increase it but chewing always does.

If you have Tractor Supply Stores in your area, look into getting Stabul 1 by Nuzu Feeds as a replacement for the Senior.

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Orchard grass vs bermuda



I am off to get probe samples of hays at the local supplier, who deals in large volumes of hay.  Orchard grass is very expensive, but they have a less expensive type that has some timothy in it, so that is why the lesser price, they tell me.  It isn't as "pretty" as the premium stuff, more mature with seed heads and some brown leaves.

The other hay I am considering is bermuda.  My horse is insulin resistant and so I need to keep the sugers/starch below 10% (of course!) and hope for lower iron.

What has others' experiences been with testing these types of hay?  The only bermuda I tested before came from a private grower, and the sugars were low but the iron was around 300 ppm.  It was not very palatable, forget was the ADF/NDF were.

I have gotten hay in California that had iron down around 100 ppm, so it is possible.

I know they got a new load of the orchard in yesterday so hopefully there will still be enough of it to buy after I get my results, which can take a week if sent in mid week (Equi-Analytical).  Does anyone know of any testing services in California that offer the same type of testing?



Re: Pill stuffed carrot


The horses don't stay in their stalls except to eat.  I tried many times with the various treats.  She just remembers.  I have given her small  glops of the natural crunchy peanut butter, no pill, several times yesterday & this a.m.  She suspiciously chewed & swallowed.  Spencer just swallows it down.  After a few more times I am going to try it with the pill.  Luxy never was much for treats just as a treat anyhow.  That's why I wanted to know how she was giving it to her mini, peanut butter is messy & at 20 degrees my fingers don't want to be covered in peanut butter.

Julia & Luxy in Pa


83561 - 83580 of 277814