Date   

Re: Hay Analysis back

Lorna Cane
 



Sorry,Dee. I've gone there,too.
 I'm stumped.

We'll have to wait for someone to sort this out for us.




Re: Hay Analysis back

 

I found the pdf file that specifically mentions it.... I went to Files, then 3 Core Diet, Analysis, Nutritional Needs, then to Basic Nutritional Needs, then it is mentioned in the pdf titled _Nutritional Needs for Insulin Resistant.

The problem was that I could find no mention anywhere else... just there.  I was interested in this as well since I got my hay results back and wanted to see if I could balance it myself, but needed to know where to start. 

Dee and Granite
Aroostook County, ME - 9/06
Case History: 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Dee%20in%20ME%20and%20Granite/


Re: Cabergoline instead of pergolide

Lorna Cane
 



>  Can you delete the old hay balancing file in my folder? 

You're welcome,Tina.

File deleted.




Re: Cabergoline instead of pergolide

Tina Martin
 

Thanks, Lorna.

I updated Rio's case history.  Can you delete the old hay balancing file in my folder?  I cannot do it because I didn't add it.  Thanks again,

Tina & Rio
Georgia, May 2011


 




Re: Hay Analysis back

Lorna Cane
 



>I would like to find the Hay Analysis Calculator but still can not find it in the links. Can you be more specific ?Barbara in NC 2012

Oh,Barbara,I'm sorry. I sent you to the IR Calculator.

I'm not sure what you mean by Hay Analysis Calculator.

Can you find the message which mentioned it? Searched for Hay Analysis Calculator in the Archives?

Sorry for the confusion.(hope you had fun in our Links section,though).




Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If it is a joint without much movement like the lower hock joint, intraarticular ethanol is a good option.

For other joints, intraarticular stanozolol.

Your vet can research these on Google Scholar, PubMed or ivis.com.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


-



Re: Hay Analysis back

 

I would like to find the Hay Analysis Calculator but still can not find it in the links. Can you be more specific ?Barbara in NC 2012


Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

Donna
 

Thanks Jill, I would be interested in finding out about low sugar hay.  I'd just made the switch from oaten hay to meadow hay anyway, due to teeth cavities.  And I was feeding hygain Showtorque, but am swapping to Zero.

I will get a copy of the blood work so that I can understand it further.
Thanks


Donna
Perth, Australia
Dec 15


Re: [ECHoof] may I ask for guidance and/or markups, please?

threehorsefarm
 

Lavinia, my apologies --- I posted them on Friday, I thought, and did not double check when adding the ones from yesterday. I'm not sure what happened.   I have posted them again in his album.  Thank you for your time!


On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, shilohmom@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Hi Robyn,

I'm in the process of doing your mark-ups and write-up. Could you please add laterals and dorsals of the hinds as well? I know, a bit of a pain but it answers a number of questions I have and makes the discussion more thorough.

It's really great that you are diving in and learning as much as you can. Many of us started the same way so you aren't alone in this journey. You'll do fine.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



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Re: Cabergoline instead of pergolide

Lorna Cane
 


Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

takarri@...
 

He was tested as part of a thorough medical check up. Although I said he was asymptomatic, my horse had lost his '5th gear' and was almost being too well behaved out on the cross country course and show jumping ring.  The vet also thought he had lost a bit of top line even though his work hadn't decreased


​That would be a reasonable reason to test. Do you know if the vet actually did an Insulin and Glucose test- how did he arrive at that conclusion? Not doubting your vet, but from past experience of many members- once the numbers were put into the IR calculator  ​http://www.freil.com/~mlf/IR/ir.html  the results can be very different. It's a matter of being thorough. It does allow for a bit of leeway with the diet if he's not IR, but it's is still advisable to keep the diet - especially the hay- under 10%. IR is potentially only a bag of sweet feed away. It would be worth looking at the offer that Jill made of low S/S hay.

I'll leave the question regarding hock treatments for one of the vets to respond to- or maybe other members that have had success in this area would be willing to chime in as to what worked for them- then we can see if it's something that is available to us in Australia.  Also, don't forget that a correct balanced trim is also an integral part of supporting the horse.

Please sign your post with your name- can just be your first name, location and date of joining. 

Pauline

Geelong Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas






Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

Donna
 

Thanks very much for the reply.

He was tested as part of a thorough medical check up. Although I said he was asymptomatic, my horse had lost his '5th gear' and was almost being too well behaved out on the cross country course and show jumping ring.  The vet also thought he had lost a bit of top line even though his work hadn't decreased.  So that, in conjunction with his age, led the vet to test him.

I have just asked he vet if he was IR which apparently he isn't.  Does that mean I don't need to adjust his diet and reduce sugars/starches?

Can I ask what other treatments for the hock you might suggest?



Re: [ECHoof] may I ask for guidance and/or markups, please?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Robyn,

I'm in the process of doing your mark-ups and write-up. Could you please add laterals and dorsals of the hinds as well? I know, a bit of a pain but it answers a number of questions I have and makes the discussion more thorough.

It's really great that you are diving in and learning as much as you can. Many of us started the same way so you aren't alone in this journey. You'll do fine.


Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Re: Cabergoline instead of pergolide

Tina Martin
 

I read the study and am very interested in trying cabergoline to see if it does a better job controlling Rio's ACTH.  He has been on large dosages of compounded pergolide for years and his ACTH has never been controlled.  I have been giving 36mg pergolide in the morning and another 5mg at night for a few months now.  Just had his blood work done Tuesday but no results from my vet yet.  I dropped his dosage to only(!) 36mg in the AM after the blood was taken though because he is doing well now and I'm hoping the seasonal rise is over for him.

I'm unsure how to go about trying the cabergoline.  Can it be compounded?  If not it will also be very expensive (around $50 for 4 tablets of 0.5mg per online search).  The study administered 5mg in a slow-release vehicle (not sure what that means) intramuscular and it lasted up to 10 days.  How much should I give to Rio and how often?  And should I still give pergolide, and if yes at what dose?

Also, I don't mind the cost of frequent bloodwork but run into logistical problems since I now live in a rural area with my vet traveling around 40 miles to see me.

I would love to give this a try but would need some help since my vet isn't very familiar with this disease and treatment.

Dr. Kellon, please let me know if it is possible to have a private consultation with you regarding a possible trial of cabergoline.  Or please just let me know what your thoughts are.  Rio's ACTH may not be controlled but he seems to feel well and is sound enough to be ridden regularly for several hours on rough mountainous terrain. So maybe "leave well enough alone"? :)  

Thanks!

Tina & Rio
Georgia, May 2011
(there is a case history somewhere)


Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

kalamucho731
 

Hi Donna, 
If you need help with finding low sugar low starch hay for Perth for your horse just ask as there are a couple of hay producers that supply stock feeders in the Perth metro area

Kind Regards

Jill



Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

takarri@...
 

 

  Hi Donna?


Welcome to the group!  Hope I’ve got your name right.  You've come to the right place for help!   We know that we throw a lot of information at you but please believe it will get easier with time. In order to help you best we need you to fill out a case history for your  horse   To do that, you need to join one of our sister groups called ECH8.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Once you get approved, which shouldn't take long, just follow the instructions to fill out a case history (CH) on your fella.

 

I see that Dr Kellon has answered your question, so I’ll proceed with the rest.

 

We use a system nicknamed DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. These are the four cornerstones of successfully managing your horse and any problems it may have.

  

DIAGNOSIS: Is done with blood work.  Obviously you’ve already had some blood work done- are you able to post us the results with the range please?  Was it just an ACTH done- or did they do Glucose and Insulin as well?  This can be added to the case history. We strongly recommend having blood drawn to test for Insulin, Glucose, Leptin as well as the ACTH. ACTH is used to diagnose PPID (Cushings) while insulin, glucose and leptin are used to diagnose Insulin Resistance (IR). The samples should be drawn at home and NON-fasting as fasting will produce artificially low results and are a holdover from human testing protocols.  For further information regarding blood testing protocol

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Australia/

 

  We are heading into what is known as the seasonal rise in Australia .  A little early perhaps- but each horse responds slightly differently. This is the time I would usually start to titrate my pergolide dose up in anticipation of the upcoming peak.  More information regarding that can be read about that here http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise

Actually that whole site http://ecirhorse.org/index.php  is full of useful up to date information. Please grab a cuppa and take the time to read it.

 

Some more reading: This time regarding Chastetree berry. This subject comes up quite often & there is plenty of information in previous messages and the files. Just put either Chaste tree berry or Vitex in the search bar.  I’ve copied and pasted a recent discussion for you from Dr Kellon. Msg# 198126

 

**This is a link to my original Vitex/Chastetree berry article:

http://www.equiworld.com/uk/horsecare/veterinary/cushingssyndrome/

I can see places where it was rewritten a little or added to but basically is the same article.  Please note this article was published 15 years ago, before we knew about the seasonal ACTH rise (although risk of fall laminitis  is mentioned) and before IR was well described as a separate syndrome or the details of diet worked out (although diet mention is given).

Beet pulp was not recommended but this was based on analyses that turned out to be BP with molasses added. The 1.5 lbs of flax seed was to completely replace omega3 lost in hay but don't need that much and may be too much fat.

Note that even then it was not recommended for advanced cases and we had at least one horse that was failing to respond well after a year.

This was the first publication of use of Vitex for PPID.  The Laminitis Trust trial was undertaken based on this and preliminary results are here:

http://www.laminitis.org/Vitex%20trial.html

Please note it is symptomatic treatment - not reliably controlling the underlying problem.


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner
Feb 2001     ***

 

DIET:   The diet that we recommend is a forage based low sugar starch (tested to be under 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or under) mineral balanced diet.  We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar+starch, with minerals added to balance the hay to the analysis and to replace what is lost during the hay curing process, we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but it also supports the delicate immune system of the PPID horse.  Until you get your hay tested, we recommend that you start your horse on the emergency diet.  Details of the emergency diet can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  The emergency diet is to be used only temporarily until you can get your hay tested and balanced.  If your hay is untested, you should be soaking it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove up to about 30% of the sugar content.  Make sure that you dump the sugary water where the horse(s) can't get too it.   Get down to the basics--soaked hay and the emergency ingredients as listed in rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. Maxisoy is also safe to use & seems to be a bit more palatable, plus it’s cheaper. 

 

As important as what you do feed on the IR diet is what you DON'T feed!  No grain, no pelleted or senior feeds, no pasture (even dead looking grass), no sugary treats (including carrots and apples), no molasses, no lucerne.

 

However, as Dr Kellon mentioned – if he is in moderate to heavy work- his dietary requirements will be different to that of a senior pasture ornament with PPID.  That’s beyond my realm for dietary advice and  there are people on this list that are better equipped to advise,  or someone like Carol Layton  http://www.balancedequine.com.au/  in NSW for a more “local” touch.

 

TRIM: Toes backed and heels low so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs and supports the internal structures. This is one of the most common "missing links" when soundness is an issue. We encourage you to post pictures of your horse in the PHOTOS section of ECHistory8 so that we can help make sure the trim is optimal. If there are any lameness issues, we recommend boots and pads for comfort.

EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is, but never force a sore equine to move. Need to be especially careful if there  are any NSAID's being used as this will mask pain and encourage the equine to do too much too soon on compromised feet.

We ask that you please sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. This helps us to give you ideas where to source items locally. Once you have your case history done we ask that you add the link to that to your signature as well so the volunteers can find your info easily. Please feel free to ask as many questions as you need to.

 

Pauline

Geelong Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas



---In EquineCushings@..., <donnapicton@...> wrote :

My 15yo Anglo-Arab eventer has just been tested for the first time and has an ACTH level of 40.  He is completely asymptomatic and quite fit and well.  



Re: Cabergoline instead of pergolide

lj friedman
 

Dr.kellon wrote this.

Also note this study confirms that oral pergolide only suppresses hormone levels for a few hours after you give it. 

Can someone explain what this vs  cabergoline means?    Just a few hours doesn't sound like pergolide isnt doing a job but I believe it does?Lj friedmAn san diego


Re: [ECHoof] may I ask for guidance and/or markups, please?

threehorsefarm
 

Lavinia, I have posted photos of the hinds today.  A new trimmer worked on all four late November and hinds had heat and pulses and he was very store and stiff behind for almost a week.  I was back there with her during the sole exam and  she did not use the knife on his soles, so I guess it had to have been taking the walls down or something.  Wish I knew so I can avoid making that mistake!    I have taken over the trimming and am a rank beginner but studying all Ramey DVDS and books and your other markups.    Thank you for any advice you can give. 

Robyn and Slim Shady, 15 yr old TWH
Kansas
Joined 2012

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/ 1848954052

Case History:  ECHistory8

ECHistory8
This is ECHistory8, the current ECHistory Group to upload NEW case histories or move an existing case history to. This group is for ECIR Group members only. ...
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On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, shilohmom@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 


Hi Robyn,

Not a mistake to post to ECHoof - you can post hoof discussions on either list. The difference is that more members tend to see the ensuing discussion when posted to the main list rather than to ECHoof but only PPID/IR horses will be discussed on the main list. If you have an equine that isn't PPID/IR then all hoof discussions will need to be on ECHoof.

I answered you on ECHoof - see that you have also replied. Let's leave the rest of the discussion here on the main list for the benefit of other members.

Thanks,
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/ 1848954052

Case History:  ECHistory8

ECHistory8
This is ECHistory8, the current ECHistory Group to upload NEW case histories or move an existing case history to. This group is for ECIR Group members only. ...
Preview by Yahoo

 

ECHistory8
This is ECHistory8, the current ECHistory Group to upload NEW case histories or move an existing case history to. This group is for ECIR Group members only. ...
Preview by Yahoo

 




Re: ACTH of 40. Do we have Cushings?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Why was he even tested?


A level of 40 at this time of the year in your part of the world is positive. Certainly agree with treating before 70 or 80 or he may end up being a classic example of laminitis being the first clinical sign.


It's not that cortisone and pergolide together are contraindicated. The problem is that PPID is already causing an elevated cortisol and cortisone treatment may cause laminitis. There are other options for the hock.


Controlling sugar intake and giving Chastetree berry will not slow the rise in ACTH. Sugar and starch restriction is needed for the insulin resistance that often accompanies PPID but you need to test for that with glucose and insulin. If he's very active and fit you will need a different diet than the highly restrictive one an inactive horse would get.


Eleanor in Pa

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001





Re: Pill stuffed carrot

Nancy C
 

Good for you Barbara for keeping at it! You will get there! I rarely have a problem with the feed bag and when I do, I simply add just a bit more Nuzu and he finishes up the 20-some pills he gets.

Don't forget to sign your posts, pretty, pretty please!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Mod
February 2003

Thanks to all who have supported the ECIR Group Inc nonprofit!  Not too late to make your year-end donation: https://www.razoo.com/us/story/Equine-Cushings-And-Insulin-Resistance-Group

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