Date   

Horse got into grain

 

I did do a search on this already, but didn't find much.

My gelding got out of his stall in the night and got into the pony's Sentinel Senior (probably ate a couple pounds of that) and also into another of the horse's Blue Seal MinAVite Lite (probably ate another couple pounds of that).

Is there anything I can do to be proactive about this?  He's severely IR, and Cushing's too.  He's only just been started on Prascend a few days ago (and I didn't get it into him this morning because he was NOT interested in his beet pulp and flax seed after all the other stuff). 

He's not sound already, so I'm awfully scared about what this is going to do to him.  He has been mostly staying in his stall, but we got a fair bit of snow a couple days ago, so I put him out in it this morning thinking it will keep the heat down in his hooves.


Dee and Granite
Aroostook County, ME - 9/06
Case History: 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Dee%20in%20ME%20and%20Granite/



Re: Need some help with my mare

tara sullivan
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon. May I share your evaluation with my Vet?? She was out today- the mare seems to be responding well to the enroflox.  Her saa score dropped over 50% to 906.  There were  piles of nice looking poo in her stall (8 hr. timeframe), so she is eating something!   And she is drinking well. Vet thought she looked pretty good.  She did an extensive ultra sound of her abdomen.  No fluid, masses or abnormalities seen.  She also took pictures and video of her liver, spleen and small intestine.  We discussed the blood test-the autoimmune thing has her puzzled. And she did mention EIA-freaked me out to think I might have a swamper, quite frankly.  Also of note-the mare's temp was 103 at 6am and had dropped to 101.4 at 11am.  No NSAIDs given.  Thought that is good, but it is back up to 102.7 4:30pm.  She is eating hay quietly so I will see where we are at 8pm.

Veterinarian will be back Thursday to re evaluate.  Probably can't do labs because of holiday but will verify.  But as far as the tests  suggested:  Lymes and Anaplasmsa-Read somewhere that testing shortly after course of doxy isn't accurate?? - any truth to that or special instructions?  Coggins test for EIA.  And what is the test for Strep myositis?

I truly appreciate your time.

Tara and Divina
2015 NY


New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
group.


File : /Fructans/Fructan_Part 1.pdf
Uploaded by : drkellon <drkellon@...>
Description :


You can access this file at the URL:
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,


drkellon <drkellon@...>


Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Regarding Pollitt's study (now at least 13 years old):


  • see previous post to Kathy

  • did NOT use the type of fructan found in grass and no study has since then either

  • there is NO data anywhere linking laminitis to measured fructan in grass or hay, not even case studies

  • no subsequent studies using lower doses of chickory fructan have been able to induce laminitis or hind gut damage


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001





Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

 

Actually, Dr. Kellon is way ahead of me and has already posted one of the articles in a folder entitled "Fructan." I'll ask her to upload the first article which is probably a good primer if you haven't been exposed to a lot of the controversies. I'm happy to explain the one that's already up if anyone needs help translating.

Besides acknowledging Dr. Kellon, also want to give a shout out to Andrea Jones of The Laminitis Site for several helpful discussions. 

Here's the link to the already posted article: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Fructans/ 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.
Missouri - USA - Dec 2005
 


Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kathleen is very busy right now but I have uploaded one of her articles into a Folder called Fructans.  Also see:

https://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/fall-laminitis/

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup/posts/571984746182802

Remember though you can drive yourself nuts trying to prove a negative!

The key points here are:

- It takes a minimum of 7.5 g/kg of body weight (3.75 kg = 8.25 pounds for a 500 kg horse) of pure chickory root fructan, given all at once by stomach tube, to reliably induce laminitis.  This is equivalent to a hay or pasture with NSC of [37.5 + ESC + starch] consumed for a whole day (not the same thing as pure fructan all at once). I'd like to see the analysis that showed a NSC over 37.5%.

- fructan is not a sugar, is not digested to sugars and does not have any significant effect on insulin

Getty is wrong.  Since she made those claims she should be able to back them up with supporting literature.  She can't.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


-


Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

 

I'm also very interested. As a lay person reading veterinary studies like Pollitt's, I don't necessarily draw the right conclusion or link it to other vet studies that are related. 

Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif Oct. '12

---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :


You have my interest 


Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Kathleen,

You have my interest and it is very high because I have owners who I help with their diets who have vets who are now telling them that they need to use WSC + Starch and quote Getty as their source.  I would appreciate it if you posted the articles here.  

"I've written a series of articles on our Facebook page tackling this thorny issue WSC vs ESC+starch and I'm happy to post them here if the interest is high enough."

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12




Re: Esc + starch vs NSC

 

Hi Angela,

In the event that you're not satisfied (like me) with short answers, this particular question has been an obsession of mine for the last few years. I could never resolve why fructan in grass or hay was implicated as directly causal for pasture laminitis when fructans are really prebiotics, not sugars. Several research investigations have demonstrated that if you give a massive and rapid bolus of chicory root fructan (inulin) through a naso-gastric tube, you can induce hind-gut acidosis, overwhelm the gut microbiota, and induce endotoxemia. The endotoxemia is directly causal for laminitis.

However, it is generally known and widely accepted that the majority of laminitis cases are caused by endocrinopathic disorders (IR) or disease (PPID). In these cases, the causal mechanism for laminitis is insulin. Therefore, emphasis is placed on the sugars and starches that play a physiologic role in the glucose and insulin response. 

While grass/hay fructans do contribute to the total calories and should be considered for weight management, so do fats and protein, so when considering calories - look at the digestible energy of the hay.

I've written a series of articles on our Facebook page tackling this thorny issue WSC vs ESC+starch and I'm happy to post them here if the interest is high enough. I'm willing to concede that grass/hay fructan may be shown to play a key role in pasture associated laminitis via some currently unknown or under-appreciated mechanism, but based on our experience here and the preponderance of scientific evidence to the contrary (no one has ever induced laminitis with grass fructans), I can only conclude that our primary focus needs to be on the carbohydrates that play a direct role in glucose-insulin dynamics.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.
Missouri - USA - Dec 2005


Re: Dr. Kellon's Classes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Some people are having trouble figuring out how to sign up for the 2 for 1 sale.

Do NOT register via registration links for both classes or you will be charged for both.  Register for one only and look for the instructions to merchant box to list your second choice.  If you don't see that box, just send me an e-mail.

Eleanor in Pa
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Dr. Kellon's Classes

Cindy McGinley
 

    I thought “Nutrition as Therapy” was the next one as a natural progression, and extremely useful.
 
- Cindy (with Alf's Entourage) in Central NY
ECIR Support
May 2006
www.blackhorseconsulting.com
 
 


Re: Dr. Kellon's Classes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <cboriskin@...> wrote :

I am signed up to take Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus class. Lucky me, there is a 2 for 1 sale and I now get to choose a second class. Anyone have a suggestion to what other classes they have taken that they can suggest? They all look good, but not sure which one would be the most beneficial. 

======================

I'll let others chime in with their experiences but basically the right next class is the one that best suits your needs/interests.  Be sure to read the outlines that are linked on all the course description pages.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Divina's blood work cbc/chem 12/2015

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

IMO:

The most striking finding on her blood work is evidence of severe infection.  Although white count is normal and neutrophil count normal, there are bands and metamyelocytes (both very rarely found and indicate severity), toxic neutrophils, all indicating a leukemoid reaction, with white cell clumping and elevated globulin.  Her white count is normal because the neutrophils are leaving the blood stream and becoming sequestered somewhere in the tissues.  The very slightly elevated Alp is probably white cell Alp from the leukemoid reaction.

The low platelet count may all be due to clumping (which is normal in horses) or there may be an element of clotting disorder.  Should keep an eye on her mucus membranes for any evidence of hemorrhages.

https://commons.wikivet.net/images/e/e6/Equine_Internal_Medicine_Q%26A_19.jpg

Some of the anemia could be suppression from chronic disease but there is evidence of autoimmune anemia because of the clumping that did not resolve with washing the cells.  This is most likely secondary to the infection.

Other possible causes are some drugs (but none she's taking as far as I know) and leukemia or lymphoma, also unlikely but can't be ruled out.

Lyme or Anasplasma cannot be ruled out as causes but should also check for EIA (Coggins test) and Strep equi (the Strangles bacterium).

On the chemistry screen, the low albumin is probably a response to the high globulin. Even with reduced albumin production the total protein is still on the high side.  The high potassium is likely coming from muscle and causing the slight reduction in sodium.  The high CK either indicates muscle is a site of inflammation (e.g. Strep myositis) or could be a red herring from a recent hard bump/fall or kick, even prolonged lying down.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001





-


Re: Dr. Kellon's Classes

Shannon Chastain
 

I am signed up too I am also going to take the Performance horse since I am getting into Endurance. I was wondering about the short ones the one on wormers and shots how were they?

 

Shannon from MO

Don’t remember when I signed up on this page J

 

From: EquineCushings@... [mailto:EquineCushings@...]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 10:01 AM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Dr. Kellon's Classes

 

 

I am signed up to take Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus class. Lucky me, there is a 2 for 1 sale and I now get to choose a second class. Anyone have a suggestion to what other classes they have taken that they can suggest? They all look good, but not sure which one would be the most beneficial. 

 

Cynthia from CA 

Tucker 10/10


Dr. Kellon's Classes

 

I am signed up to take Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus class. Lucky me, there is a 2 for 1 sale and I now get to choose a second class. Anyone have a suggestion to what other classes they have taken that they can suggest? They all look good, but not sure which one would be the most beneficial. 


Cynthia from CA 

Tucker 10/10


Re: New Leptin test over the moon!

Lorna Cane
 



>Yes I was aware she had responded.


Good-oh.

Continue to keep a close eye on clinical signs, as I know you always do, and let us know how things proceed with him from here.




Re: New Leptin test over the moon!

Sharon Manning
 

Thanks Lorna
My original post about high ca hay was several weeks ago.
"have added Mg as of yesterday after Dr. K’s post. "
Yes I was aware she had responded.
Sharon
E TN


Re: Levothyroxine lowering insulin

Lorna Cane
 




>>I had been looking through the archives, but hadn't found all of these messages.  Knowing what to use as search words makes a big difference!


You're welcome,Dee.
You're right. It pays to fiddle with the words a bit. I didn't find all those messages by using Levothyroxine and insulin.
But in some of the first messages I noticed that thyroid supplementation was mentioned a lot. So I tried that,and got different, and more appropriate messages,for your question.Or I hoped so anyway.





Re: Levothyroxine lowering insulin

 

Thank you Lorna,
I had been looking through the archives, but hadn't found all of these messages.  Knowing what to use as search words makes a big difference!
Thanks again.

Dee and Granite
Aroostook County, ME - 9/06
Case History: 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Dee%20in%20ME%20and%20Granite/

 


 




Re: Levothyroxine lowering insulin

Lorna Cane
 

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