Date   

Re: I don't know what else to do

Candace Costis
 

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/10/16, coralrenee@gmail.com [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: I don't know what else to do
To: EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 10, 2016, 10:20 AM


 Hey, Coral. I am a beginner here, too. I've been removing layers of hoof and have been shocked at the amount of infection I'm finding in there. Without exercise the hooves are growing really fast. Today I removed as much toe as I dared but I also angled up the floor of the hoof at the toe. My Annie seemed much more comfortable. And I'm with you. I find this hoof padding/shoe business daunting. Well, onward through the fog.
Candace
Austin area, Texas.









Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who
responded),
Thank you
all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the
latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see
it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%.
When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars
AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and
my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't
decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to
find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is
concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about
sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like
I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE
buying. 
I will try
soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try
testing the soaked hay to see what results I get.
Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for
more hay soon to get a new year's supply.
:(
I didn't know
that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too
much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last
time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I
haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to
that. 
I have pretty
much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to
the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance
trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona
shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a
different style of boots and I'm going to get those for
Po. 
I'm very
frustrated because it seems like it's always one
set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't
getting better. His feet are generally better than they were
when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly
frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a
horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from
it.
Coral &
PoSept 2013Corpus Christi,
TX
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/844830912
 




---In EquineCushings@yahoogroups.com,
<kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi
Coral,
Are you currently
feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9%
and the Starch is 2.9%.
The recommendation is to
soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot
water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from
its "bath" water.


Equine
Cushings and Insulin Resistance The
ECIR Yahoo group provides a place for everyone who has a
horse with Cushing’s Disease and Insulin Resistance in
their care to share expe...


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Re: WAS I don't know NOW Feet

 

Ok, so since you're a trimmer, I have another question. The CBT that looked at Po commented on the soft thin soles too. I was under the impression that once the sole develops concavity due to the toes being closer to where they should be that the sole develops some thickness at about the same rate as concavity.

Now, the other thing I've been told is that thin soles can be genetic. When I bought the horse I was told he had "bad feet" and would need shoes. Well, does he NEED shoes because he's always going to be thin-soled no matter how good his trim is? I thought thin soles could eventually be remedied. To me, shoes are a bandaid covering up a larger problem but are there truly horses that must be shod?

Thanks,

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX

(On phone so don't have links)


Sent from my iPhone.


Uckele Optimize Pellets ESC + starch levels?

Barbara Vincent
 

I've been looking for a good mineral balanced feed for my Cushings / IR mini horse, Lily.  I asked my very knowledgeable adviser, Maggie, about the Uckele Optimize.  She did not know what the ESC and starch levels were in this feed, and suggested I ask the list.
  Right now she eats her 1 mg tab of Prascend in about 1/4 cup of Triple Crown senior, in a feed bag.   She's picky.  Lukewarm on the ODTB cubes;  much prefers her low sugar grass hay.  I don't think the cubes would work as a carrier for anything worse tasting. 
Barbara and Lily
Malvern, PA
March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Barbara%20and%20Lily/

 





Re: New case report: Annie

Lorna Cane
 


Re: New case report: Annie

Lorna Cane
 


>>What is the styrofoam people keep mentioning for cushioning the feet.


Hi Candace,


I  Googled styrofoam/hooves/equine. Here are a couple of sites:


https://www.google.ca/search?q=styrofoam+hooves+equine&espv=2&biw=1134&bih=897&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicqYTO7Z_KAhVDWx4KHdIFBn8QsAQILw&dpr=1.1


More in our Conversations archives.Even more on our EC Hoof sister site.


Styrofaom pads are very useful,but nothing will help (ok, maybe it will,but just temporarily) if the trim isn't a balanced one.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 

 



Re: Need some help with my mare

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Re: I don't know what else to do

Sally Hugg
 

Hi Coral -

I just looked at your photos on EC Hoof - nice job with the pictures :). 

For an owner trying to trim a case like this you have done a pretty good job, so take heart in that. There are some things that can be improved in the trim. Your trimmer should be able to recognize those areas and show you what to do. While Po's feet have good concavity, his soles appear to be very thin and there are sole ridges at the toe. In cases with thin soles I don't trim those ridges. Very thin soled horses often can't handle much pressure on their soles and it's possible that even the nice deep sand environment you have provided Po may be too much for his feet right now. That is where some experimenting with foot wear comes in handy. Most trimmers carry a variety of boots/pads and assorted footwear in their trucks to try out, so you shouldn't have to spend hundreds of $$ trying things that may or may not work.

I think with better boots and padding that you will make Po a lot more comfortable. Hang in there!


---In EquineCushings@..., <coralrenee@...> wrote :

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX




 








Re: Need some help with my mare

tara sullivan
 

Thank you so much for the encouraging words...it helps!  The recommendation was from the ultra sound done on 12/24. 
The timing of this whole episode with the holidays, lab closures, my family obligations, Dr. G's family obligations....the internists...blahblahblah  It just really contorted the whole process.
And I have totally hogged this forum-my apologies to all because this whole list is for people and their horses in crisis. 
So please accept my heartfelt Thanks to all of you who endured.  But....we aren't at the end of the story, yet!

Maybe it is time to move this to another forum-Let me know if I should.

Tara and Divina


Re: I don't know what else to do

 

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

Thank you all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%. When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE buying. 

I will try soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try testing the soaked hay to see what results I get. Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for more hay soon to get a new year's supply. :(

I didn't know that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to that. 

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

I'm very frustrated because it seems like it's always one set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't getting better. His feet are generally better than they were when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from it.

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX






---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi Coral,

Are you currently feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9% and the Starch is 2.9%.


The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.

 








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Re: Need some help with my mare

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Thanks, Tara, for keeping us updated with everything else you have on her plate. You and your team are doing a fabulous job of supporting her. What kind of testing identified a possible small intestinal issue?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com   2 for 1

EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


New case report: Annie

Candace Costis
 

Well, I'm new to the business of Cushings and Laiminitis. I thought I knew something but, no. I am trying to find my way out of the wilderness. Bit of history and current status. 

Saw my Morgan mare, 17 years old or so, had Cushings symptoms. After this Spring she did not lose her winter fur which was longer than usual. Her neck was a bit cresty. I wanted to get her back into riding/training but her back was out because she caught her hip a couple of times but I didn't and then got distracted by a severe and rare eye infection in another mare (ocular herpes virus: the solution was easy after hundreds spent on a misdiagnosis of fungal which has a similar presentation). Annie was on jiaogolan. This initially helped her bad feet and she was perkier but then it did not - the why I subsequently read about here. And, she has a special liking for a false daisy which is taking over our fields and always causes her trouble.* So, as I was finishing up with the other healing, Annie got laminitis and I panicked and discovered that this is a very complicated and controversial issue.

Presently: A week or so later. Crest no longer rock hard and is flexible. General whole body swelling nearly gone. She looks great. Her hooves are still very sore. She has been able to stand on three feet for hoof work since the beginning but finds walking painful.

Treatment: Tumeric and specifically Golden Paste which is a special cooked blend of tumeric, water, coconut oil and fresh ground pepper devised by a small animal vet for inflammation. 

NCD2 by Waiora for detox of liver and kidneys.

and other various and sundry things - flax, vit E, C when I remember

Feet: daily cleaning with baking soda and trimming.

She is in a small paddock and receiving Triple Crown Lite, small treats of fresh alfalfa which she is accustomed to and coastal bermuda hay which is organic and home grown but not tested.


Vet pushes me hard to administer Bute and Pergolide. I did give her 4 days of Bute 2 grams 2 x a day but no Pergolide (fear of it). Vet fussed that I needed to get metabolic under control to affect feet. He said I could reduce the amount which might have been 2 once a day. Annie is very sensitive and can not tolerate, say, vaccinations. One tablet of Pergolide made her look very sick. Remember she looks and acts great now except for sore feet - she is standing but moving carefully. After a day or two I am going to try 1/2 a pill once a day. Vet does not see the need for testing. When I feel Annie can travel I will take her to another vet for testing.


Questions: what about chaste berry? A friend has used it with success. 

What is the styrofoam people keep mentioning for cushioning the feet. I am finding that boots (expensive, my medical allocation is exhausted) have to be sized and wonder about using diapers temporarily. I heard somewhere that some people use these in a pinch. Right now Annie is standing in soft spots in her small bare paddock.


Future: want to order chaste berry, buy some shoes or something (maybe diapers today until I figure out shoe sizing procedures, etc). Order bee pollen which intuition says would be beneficial. Continue to monitor the Pergolide to see if she can tolerate it at any dosage. Continue the Golden Paste, NCD2, keep trimming back the front of her hooves which are growing at astonishing rates, sessions of cranial sacral work as specifically advised by April Battles who also advised the NCD2.

And, I can't figure out ow to send a photo.


So, I'm in. I welcome advice and comments. 

Candace


* I have been trying to get the horses off of those fields with the false daisy and keep Annie away from it, especially, but as stated was distracted. We've also been trying to find a way of eliminating this weed.



Re: I don't know NOW soaking hay

Nancy C
 

Hi Kathy

It was in the other email but happy to say again, Iron and Mn went down but not enough to say it was anything important.

That my starch actually went up may be an anomaly but certainly is in line with what we've known before -- that starch can't be soaked out.

If it has been established that sugar may go back into the hay with prolonged soaking, I need to see that info again. In my opinion, based on my 2012-2013 year of soaking, even if it DID go back in, the end result of sugar lowered by some 2/3's was enough for my wickedly sensitive guy. The process I developed kept me sane and him safe while soaking in -20 F temps.

I would advise Coral, as you have, that the starch cannot be soaked out,  and that 2.9 may be too high for Po.

This next bit may be too far in the weeds.  We know starch is digested to all glucose. ESC to 50% glucose. IF we follow the starch = 2xs glucose of esc rule, her current hay unsoaked would be 11.7%, right? (5.9+2.9+2.9 = 11.7)

Even if the ESC was cut in 2/3s like mine, she's still at almost 8% with the level of starch he is eating.  At 50% reduction in ESC she starts to climb closer to the 10% cut off. Less than a 50% reduction in ESC with soaking and she gets  over 10%
 
Analyzing a sample soaked in the  manner which you prepare the  hay, would be the quickest way to answer  questions on what you are actually feeding. Could just do a wet chem on starch and esc alone to start.  IME it is money well spent.

In this case I'd test the soaked hay, if okay on ESC and Starch, balance to the test. Would get more eyes on my trim. Would try to keep him from having any exceptional movement in the pasture or otherwise, until I was sure about the hoof capsule and solid growth.

I know you know this Kathy, and I know I am a broken record, but for folks following along, may I say again, when one gets stuck in place you have to go back to DDT+E, review and check all the boxes.  In the past when we've believed the DD's were tightly in place, it is usually the foot (trim) that needs the most attention to get the horse comfortable. 

More than you wanted to hear perhaps.....Thanks for listening.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Mod
February 2003

---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

What would you advise an owner (Coral) who had a difficult time sourcing hay and finally found a hay with ESC 5.9% and Starch 2.9%?  My concern was that there might be too much starch in this hay for an IR horse (Po) and that it might need soaking based on symptoms when feeding it.  If she is soaking it for 12 hours, might she not be increasing starch while decreasing sugar based on your results?



Re: Polycystic Ovary Syndrome and Laminitis

Maggie
 

Hi Julia,

I totally agree with Lorna on the importance of getting your case history done on Jazz.  One reason is that knowing exactly what you are feeding her can help us to help you evaluate all the feed sources.  SO MANY bagged feeds that are advertised as save for IR horses are definitely not!  Most are too high in sugar, starch, fat, iron--all things that can worsen IR.  

So, get your CH up!  And go out there and take some pictures of Jazz's feet!  Follow the instructions in the link I gave you.  Our hoof guru can do markups for you on the photos to help guide you with your trim.  Meanwhile, once you join ECH8, go the photos section and look at other albums and study the mark ups in those.  Lavinia has done many, many markups and you can see the success people have had following the guidelines.  You can at least get an idea of what an optimal trim should look like, and compare that to what Jazz's feet look like.  These things will give you something to do and concentrate on.  Many on this list have had to find new vets and/or farriers, or have started trimming their own horses when they couldn't find anyone to do it the way they wanted/needed.

The DDT/E works!  But it doesn't happen overnight, though the emergency diet can turn some horses around pretty quickly.  Some horses take longer than others or need tighter control of their diet.  They all have different levels of insulin resistance, so what your IR pony may tolerate may be too much for Jazz.  We want to help you help Jazz and we are here to support you.  Like Lorna said, many of us know exactly what you are struggling with!  I found this group after years of struggling with laminitis/founder in my pony.  But not one episode since I found this group and put the DDT/E's into practice.

 I totally empathize with the mud situation--it's like that here too!  Hang in there!  We know it's not easy.  The collective tears that the people in this group have shed over their horses could probably flood an ocean.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 




Re: Need some help with my mare

tara sullivan
 

Hi Dr. Kellon.  I didn't mean to suggest that Dr. G disregarded the SAA result.  I was totally disheartened and just want everything to corroborate a progression to health.  She felt that it is an indication that we are keeping a lid on the infection-afterall, we started with 2200+.  I think she was trying to keep my spirits up.

I posted Divina's latest cbc and chemistry.  She is holding her own.  Rbcs rising but so is GGT.  Glad to see glucose not over the top.  Temp still undulating.  It rose to 102.6 last night and same this morning.  Legs a little filled.  Eating and drinking ok.  Mare just seemed to have a headache?  No headpressing against the stall....just on me for a good while.  So I gave her 3cc banamine.  Temp started to drop in 10 minutes and her whole countenance perked up.

Finally got some feedback from the internist.  Spleen is normal but small intestine is distended.  Recommends a rectal/ultrasound.  That might happen today.

Tara and Divina

NY 2015

ECHistory8


Re: Polycystic Ovary Syndrome and Laminitis

Lorna Cane
 



Hi Julia,

>>>I shall try and provide one of the case studies you request today, but am unfortunately really struggling with this emotionally as I feel I am letting Jazz down, and am struggling to pull myself together atm.

Many of us here know exactly what you are struggling with,and we're here to help.
And you are here, so you are definitely NOT letting Jazz down.

I just wanted to underline the importance of Maggie's suggestion to get a case history up for Jazz,even in the midst of your struggles.
It is the best way to get the details in front of the people who can help .We are great supporters of the fact that the devil is in the details.
Working on the case history will also shut off the nagging,blaming,destructive ranting of the brain,while it focuses on getting the case history filled out.

You may even find as you fill out the details that something you hadn't noticed before jumps out at you,and could be part of the puzzle.

Another way to help the volunteers help you is to sign your posts with your name (Thanks for that),your location,and your joining date.When you get the case history done,add its link to your signature,so that volunteers don't have to look for it.


I've deleted the old messages so that people reading Digest format don't have to scroll through all the old stuff to get to something new.





Re: WAS: I don't know what else to do NOW: Soaking hay

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Let me clarify......I didn't think that one could decrease the starch by soaking in the hay (ESC 5.9% and Starch 2.9%), but that one could lower the ESC (sugar) so the hay could be fed to an IR horse.


Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI 10/12


Re: Polycystic Ovary Syndrome and Laminitis

Julia Cunniffe
 

Thanks Maggie, I have been managing my Shetland pony with IR for several years so most of this information I am already aware of and using for him. He lives with company on a scraped mud track, with soaked hay and the same very low sugar feeds etc that Jazz has. To manage Jazz and her companion also on a totally mud track will be a massive undertaking. The track they are currently on doesn't have much grassy area left, but is so incredibly slippery (we're having a very wet, warm winter here in the UK) with all the rain we've had I am terrified that they will injure themselves even more significantly.

Unfortunately, the picture that Jazz is presenting with is not all that consistent with Laminitis which is why I have not yet had any blood work done on her. My vets had suggested nerve blocks and Xrays, to see if it is just a single foot lameness, but as she will not allow even hoof testing, she would definitely not permit nerve blocks without sedation, which would I believe render them useless.

During the last week she has been moving around the field in total comfort, trotting, cantering, rearing and playful, with some herbal anti-inflammatory alternative to bute. She has walked out on a soft surface for 20 minute walks and voluntarily continued on the road, when she didn't have to. This has been with her living out on her very muddy track with little grass. 

Then last night she once again looked very much as if she has a right fore abscess again, and didn't want to move. So she is back in her stable( and tiny crew yard because she cannot cope with being shut in totally and to enable her to be able to see her companion properly). This morning she looks more to have bilateral discomfort, as she will not allow me to lift the right fore to pick it out, which I presume must be due to discomfort of the left fore.

Unfortunately my previous trimmer, who's vet husband has also been very supportive, has now gone down the 'self-trimming' route and therefore is not willing to support me with the trim, which I have continued with on my own. The trim i was using with them based was on the work of Jaime Jackson and Dr Bowker, had worked brilliantly for my pony when he had problems but I have been unable to find another professional that performs the same kind of trim.

I shall try and provide one of the case studies you request today, but am unfortunately really struggling with this emotionally as I feel I am letting Jazz down, and am struggling to pull myself together atm. Currently at my wits end knowing who to turn to for professional help as I feel my vets have no interest and minimal understanding of the problem, and my ex-trimming friends feel I need to just give her pain relief and let her keep moving!

I will consider the blood-works you have suggested and perhaps get them done this week, possibly with a right fore xray, hopefully to rule out abcess and/or rotation once and for all.  

Thank you for your support, it is really appreciated. I apologise if I come across as being negative and/or defensive, but as an overly sensitive person who has already practically had a nervous breakdown trying to sort out the ponies IR/Laminitic problems in the past...I am a bit of an emotional wreck again trying to work my way through this for Jazz. 

Best Wishes,

Julia
 



On Saturday, January 9, 2016 3:42 PM, "spiral1957@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi Julia,

Welcome to the group!  You can never provide us with too much info, and you provided a nice summary of your mare's issues.  But in order to get the best help we ask that everyone fill out a case history on their horse.  To do that, you'll need to join one of our sister groups called ECHistory8.  It's a filing cabinet for storing case histories, and keeps all the CH's in one easily accessible place.  Here's a link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  It won't take long to get approved and then just follow the instructions for filling out a CH.  You can copy and paste a lot of the info that you have already provided in the free form "time line" section at the end of the CH form.

Meanwhile, I will explain our philosophy called DDT/E, which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise, and point you in the right direction for some more reading.

Diagnosis:  Forgive me if I missed it, but I am not seeing any mention of lab work.  Is that right?  The first step in getting a good treatment plan underway is a good diagnosis.  To get that, we recommend these 4 tests:  ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin on a NON-fasting horse.  At the age of 10, Jazz is just at the cusp of the age that we recommend you do the ACTH to rule out (or in) PPID (Cushing's disease).  PPID is an enlargement or benign tumor in a part of the pituitary gland called the pars intermedia, not usually seen (though not unheard of) in horses under the age of 10.  It's treated with a medicine called pergolide.  IR is not a "disease", but a "metabolic type" of horse, normally, but not always, described as easy keepers with abnormal fat pads such as cresty necks, puffiness in the hollows of the eyes, excessive drinking and urinating, etc.  IR is treated with a low carb, low fat, mineral balanced diet.  A horse that has both PPID and IR would need both pergolide and a carefully managed diet for the rest of it's life.  Any horse can have just IR, just PPID, or both (or neither).  With regard to the labwork, the ACTH is to diagnose the PPID and the insulin and glucose for diagnosing IR.  The leptin helps to differentiate if the horse is IR at baseline or if an elevated insulin is being driven by a high ACTH.  Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating", and insulin resistance and leptin resistance go hand in hand.  More information about leptin resistance can be found in the first file in this folder:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Insulin%20Resistance/  The labwork does require special handling so please read more about that on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diagnosis 

Additionally, you are going to want to read Dr. Kellon's  ECIR 2013 Proceedings on Reproductive Abnormalities in Mares with Diet Resistant Insulin Resistance.  Look here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings/2013-proceedings-recordings-table-of-contents  Scroll down to the free PDF's and it's the 4th one up from the bottom of the page.  This will give you another diagnostic tool to consider.

Diet:   To provide a low carb, (less than 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or less), mineral balanced diet, we use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.  Until you can get your hay tested and balanced, we recommend that you use the Emergency Diet.    It does involve soaking your hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove ~30 of the sugar content.  Make sure you dump the soaking water where the horse(s) can't get to it.  Though not intended for long term use, the emergency diet addresses some of the most common deficiencies.  More details about the emergency diet can be found on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  Once you get your hay tested you can look in this file for a list of people who can help you with mineral balancing (first file in this folder):  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/  Or since you are in the UK, you will probably want to continue to work with Sarah at Forageplus.

A very important part of the IR diet is what you DON'T feed. No pasture, no grain, no molasses containing products, no sugary treats including apples and carrots, no unsoaked hay with an either an unknown ESC+starch content or ESC+starch that is above 10%.  Plain white salt blocks only--the brown/red ones contain iron (and sometimes molasses) and unknown mineral amounts which interfere with mineral balancing.  As I read your note, I was really struck with the need to keep Jazz completely off the grass.  Many people struggle with this concept, but the fact is, many IR horse just cannot tolerate any grass at all.  

Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis.  Here are the links to our website on a proper trim.  Here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim   and here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim  You are welcome to post pictures of your mare's feet so our hoof guru can help you to determine if you have an optimal trim in place.  Here's a site that explains how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html   Please put any photos and/or xrays in the PHOTOS section of ECH8.  That's the group you join to fill out your CH.  The CH's are in the "files" section, pictures in the "photos" section.  

Exercise: This is the best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  Once she is able to tolerate increased movement, we recommend hand walking in long straight lines with no tight turns, which puts increased stress on the new laminae as they grow in.  Boots and pads may be in order for comfort during the rehab period.

I hope you find some information in this that helps you, Julia.  There is TONS of great information on our website, in our files and also in the archived messages.  You can search for anything using the "search converstions" and "search files" boxes.  But don't hesitate to ask any further questions that you have!  Let us know when you have your case history done!  We ask all members to please sign each time you post with your name (first is fine), date of joining, and general location (which helps us to source products for you).  When you get your CH done, you will want to add a link to it in your signature as well so that we can find it faster and answer your questions faster!  See my signature below as an example.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA





Re: WAS: I don't know what else to do NOW: Soaking hay

Kathy Brinkerhoff
 

Hi Nancy,

Thank you,

I realized that one couldn't soak out starch and that is what I advise the owners I help.  My original question was could the 12 hr soaking cause the hay to reabsorb the sugar, but based on your analysis it appears it might cause the starch to increase?  ESC (sugar), Ca, P Mg and K all decreased.  I may have missed it but what happened to iron?

What would you advise an owner (Coral) who had a difficult time sourcing hay and finally found a hay with ESC 5.9% and Starch 2.9%?  My concern was that there might be too much starch in this hay for an IR horse (Po) and that it might need soaking based on symptoms when feeding it.  If she is soaking it for 12 hours, might she not be increasing starch while decreasing sugar based on your results?  I assume you would recommend she send a sample/s for analysis. 

Kathy Brinkerhoff

SE/WI  10/12



Re: WAS: I don't know what else to do NOW: Soaking hay

Nancy C
 

I soaked for 12 hours in an insulated cooler which keeps the hay from spoiling in the heat or freezing in the cold with good room for adequate water.   Easy to drain.  And yes, those results were from that soak.

As far as I am aware the recs of the ECIR Group are to soak 30 mins in hot water, 60 in cold.  I had to adapt to what worked for me through the summer and winter and wanted to share my one-rat findings in this current thread.  Pretty sure I've done so before, at least the bit about the cooler and 12 hours, but I may be wrong.

HTH

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Mod
February 2003

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