Date   

Re: Jiaogulan , APF, Prascend

Nancy C
 

Hi Dawn

If you are concerned about pergolide veil, I would hold off on jherb for now and use the APF.

For those who are new to the Cornell vs MSU issue, below are a few messages that might help.  Members have seen Cornell confirm PPID when MSU did not.  It has nothing to do with courier service. One member suspected her horse was uncontrolled through signs even though regular testing with MSU was not confirming same.  Side-by-side testing at her expense showed Cornell confirming her suspicions.  (Thank you Melanie)

Links to conversations about this below. See especially 170798.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/topics/170798

 


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/194249

 


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/194338

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/188024

 


This issue can be problematic not only for initial diagnosis but for following up to make sure the pergolide is at the correct dose.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <parkell2001@...> wrote :



Testing will be done at Michigan State. My vet has a meeting there this afternoon so he was driving directly home to his office, will spin and process the sample, then was driving it directly to MSU and delivering it to the lab. It seemed ridiculous to ask him instead to send it via courier to Cornell. 



Re: small abscess RF

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lj,

Abscesses are the body's way of getting rid of material that is trapped and can't be disposed of in any other way. It can be necrotic material, foreign bodies, infection the circulatory system doesn't have access to as examples. Quite common in the feet when there has been damage of any sort as circulation within the hoof capsule is quite limited. Many times, the material has sat there for a long time unknown and dormant until changes in mechanics and/or movement put pressure on it and get it moving.

High sugar feed doesn't cause an abscess although it could cause insulin spikes in an IR/PPID horse that damage laminar connections and the resulting damage results in an abscess forming. Changes in weather/footing can also mobilize trapped "stuff" because they result in the hoof mechanics changing to adapt to the different footing. Compromised feet may also be more susceptible to outside pathogens gaining a foothold when footing becomes wet as this softens the connections that are already tenuos and immerses them in a "bacterial soup".

Adding Purina Senior to an IR horse's diet is unwise and could lead to Jesse developing serious health issues so it would be recommended that you phase that out asap.

Amazing what a balanced diet and good control of underlying medical conditions can do for healing

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Jiaogulan , APF, Prascend

Dawn Wagstaff
 

Hi all,
My vet was out this morning to pull ACTH, insulin and glucose for my 20 year old stallion. As soon as I get results back, I'll get a case file. up. 

Stallion this morning has some modest heat in feet and mild pulses. My vet, after reviewing current feed (no packaged feed, timothy pellets with U balance) and on how this stallion is presenting with fat pads, laminitis, eye socket fat, etc. recommended starting on Prascend and adjusting depending on lab results. 

Testing will be done at Michigan State. My vet has a meeting there this afternoon so he was driving directly home to his office, will spin and process the sample, then was driving it directly to MSU and delivering it to the lab. It seemed ridiculous to ask him instead to send it via courier to Cornell. 

He said he has had very good results with using Prascend, so I will start with that. He is willing to write a script for either compound or Prascend, will see where this goes.

My question is the following. This stallion is currently receiving 1/1/2 teaspoons of Jiaogulan per day split into two doses. It is both for his feet and for his RAO. Vet left a bottle of Ventipulmin should he have another episode of heaves. No more Dex as you can imagine.

Should I discontinue the J herb and switch to APF during the transitioning on to Prascend? 

Dawn Wagstaff
Saline, MI  2003


Re: small abscess RF

lj friedman
 

I forgot to dd we/ve had a few days of rain in san diego 


small abscess RF

lj friedman
 

Jesse had a small abscess fixed from the farrier today.  ( last trim was feb 01) I dont even know what causes  abscesses.  Can some hi sugar feed like purina eq sr cause an abscess ? Bec of Jesse having 14 teeth removed, the bo suggested adding a bit of purina eq sr to stimulate his appetite. Surgery was feb 11 so I'm just being foolish by continuing the purina eq sr. Interestingly enough,. the dental vet said he's never seen such good healing after this procedure   Jesse is  25, cushings  and IR.. lj friedman san diego n0v 2014


Re: CONFUSED and would really like to get some advice

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks, Karen.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ECHistory8

 



Re: Ford: New X-rays

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Fran,

I've added mark-ups to Ford's album:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1214900120

Overall, there's been good progress made in getting the huge flares under control and the toes and heels backed into better positions. The orientation of the coffin bone is not quite as flat as it was due to the heels being moved into a more supportive position under the bony column. Soles are still thin, toes still too far out in front which are interfering with the efforts to gain more sole depth. It looks like the medial-lateral balance on the LF may have been a tad off, with the medial side a bit taller. Know that you had recently introduced pea gravel - the positive effects can be seen in the way the soles are exfoliating and there is generally more definition to the underside. This in turn is highlighting just how over-exuberant those bars still are.

LF lateral xray: The two yellow lines denote some sinking that is present - (1) is the coronary band and (2) is the extensor process. These two points should align or at least be close together. The distance between them denotes that there is some distal descent, so the bony column is sitting deeper inside the hoof capsule than is optimal. Blue line is the bony column alignment - note how the axis slightly broken back. The sinking and out-of-position heels are both contributing factors. Purple is where the CB wants/needs to break over in motion. Green is where the toe needs to come back to and get a strong bevel. RF is generally the same but med-lat balance appears ok.

LF lateral: Green line highlights that the toe is still a tad too far out in front.

RF sole: Got into the big box of crayolas here - hope it isn't too confusing. Green is where the entire hoof capsule needs to come in to - toes back, separating walls in. The built-up, crumbling sole at the toe, which covers the white line, is a RED FLAG that the toe is still too long. Yellow is where the heel buttresses need to be, just a bit further back than they currently reside. Blue circles are where the wall-bar juncture appears to be. Follow the blue arrows to see where it actually is, at the yellow "V" adjacent to the buttresses. Need to concentrate on gently opening this area up by removing the overgrown bar material that is crowding everything else and pushing all the structures to the outside. Purple is the overgrown bars that are leaning and pooling and making a general nuisance of themselves. Exfoliate the cracking, peeling material, esp on the top leading edge of those bars, to gain control of them over time. This will encourage them to stand straighter, allowing the heels to remain upright and centered under the bony column where they belong. Red is the true tip of the frog.

As I said before, there have been a lot of the right things happening. Many times it's the final stages, when things start getting close, that make feet pros get jittery cuz in their heart of hearts there is still that little voice that does the Mr. Bill "Oohh, Nooo!" thing. The knee-jerk reaction is to think you can't possibly back that toe anymore unless there is going to be a shoe added. Trouble is, shoes are only a band-aid when applied to a less-than-perfect trim as they will magnify the negative aspects while temporarily masking the detrimental effects. That's not to say that at times, a well-placed composite shoe cannot be a helpful bridge for a horse in need of that extra bit of support and comfort. Just that it cannot replace the necessary correct trim basics.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ECHistory8

 

Yahoo! Groups

 


Re: ECIR Ed and Outreach Vid Committee needs your help

janieclougher@...
 

Oh, shoot!  Thank you, Ferne!  Joan, please go to http://ecirhorse.org/   for information.





Re: ECIR Ed and Outreach Vid Committee needs your help

ferne fedeli
 

Jaini, noticed that you had left out the "c" in ecirhorse.org...

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:39 AM, janieclougher@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

Argh! Joan, I am so sorry about this!  Yahoo groups can be ..... difficult.... to deal with sometimes.  Please can you give it another try, and then post about what error messages and so on you are getting.  Sometimes it makes a difference which browser you are using. In the meantime, the website eirhorse.org has a ton of information, similar to what you will see in the files, and there is no need to join or to open anything - it is all right there.


If you are not too frustrated by all of this, you can send an email to Jannalee and work out how to send us some pictures or videos:

Please contact committee chair, Jannalee Smithey:  jsmithey “at” jeffnet “dot” org for more info about  pics, videos and potential volunteer positions for this project.

Thanks!




---In EquineCushings@..., <flynfoal@...> wrote :

I would love to send you photos or videos of my horses, and what we have overcome.
Unfortunately, I have never been able to open files and read information.
Joan Carston




--
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
Regional Members Database Coordinator
Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.


Re: new to the group

Maggie
 

Hi Kathy,

Prascend is the brand name of pergolide.  Many of us use the encapsulated form of pergolide available from compounding pharmacies.  It much more economical, especially when higher doses are needed.  Here is a list of compounding pharmacies if you are interested:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/links/all/Compounding_Pharmacies  If you do change to the compounded form, we recommend ordering only 30 days at a time and storing it in the door of the refrigerator.

I looked at the Prince Regency Senior feed and it contains a whopping 22.8% starch!  Starch is worse than sugar for causing an insulin spike as it converts 100% to glucose whereas sugar converts only 50% to glucose.  It also contains a minimum of 7% fat, could be more.  We want to stay less than or equal to about 4% fat.  Also the fat that is listed in the guaranteed analysis is vegetable fat, which has more Omega 6 fatty acids than Omega 3's.  We like ground flax seed for adding fat as the Omega3:6 ratio is about the same as grass, ~4:1.

Beet pulp is a great way to help put weight on a PPID/IR horse.  You can feed up to about 30% of your donkey's diet in BP.  It's really important to get your donkey a properly mineral balanced diet.  There are special requirements if you increase the BP to more than just enough to use as a carrier for supplements.  Here's a list of people who can help you with diet balancing (first file in this folder):  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/7%20Help%20with%20Mineral%20Balancing/   Sorry if I missed it, but is your donkey still able to eat hay?

It's good that you are rinsing it and soaking it the BP.  We recommend that you add one more rinse after soaking.  First rinse should be until clear, then soak and rinse again until the water runs clear.  I googled beet pulp in northern Wisconsin and found this:  http://www.labudde.com/ingredients/premium-beet-pulp-shreds/  They have several forms of BP.  Look at: Where to Buy LaBudde Premium Shreds: Maybe one of those places is located near you and you could call and see if they have the non-molasses kind?  

Are you using the Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes with the lavender label?  Or their regular Timothy cubes?  The Timothy Balance cubes are balanced according to Dr Kellon's specifications and can actually be used as a complete diet.  You would only need to add salt, Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  If your donkey has trouble chewing they can easily be soaked in warm water.  Add only enough warm water to fluff them.  You don't want to pour off any water as you would loose the balancing minerals.

Please sign each time you post with your name (first is fine), date of joining and general location.  See my signature below for an example.  And please take a second to delete the message that you are responding to.  It really helps to keep the reams of repeat information from piling up and makes searching the archives easier.  Thanks!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA


Re: new to the group

Kathy Billek
 

Jan
Radar is not on Peroglide but on Perscend should he be on peroglide? what is the difference  I will ask the vet for the lab tests they were send to Mich tech for processing.
current feed is 2 cups of Prince Regency Senior Feed.   Ohiodehy timothy hay cubes with beet pulp soaked and beet pulp since I am not able to get without molasses I rinse it and then soak it.


On Sunday, March 6, 2016 10:20 PM, "janieclougher@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Hi, Kathy, and welcome to the list!
First things first: what senior feed is your donkey on?  Most bagged senior feeds are way too high in starch, and will make any issues worse. Many, if not most, donkeys are insulin resistant, and need feed of less than 10% ESC plus starch.
One way to help combat the "Pergolide Veil" is to start out at a low dose of 0.25 mg daily, and increase by 0.25 mg every 3 or 4 days. In your case, I think adding APF or APF Pro could help a lot.  
I will confess, the lack of appetite occurring a couple of weeks after using pergolide is not the usual thing: normally, if there is going to be a Pergolide Veil, it is apparent almost immediately, or within the first week.  Donkeys, however, are very special, and so I cannot say for certainty that this is not the donkey version of the Veil.
Another consideration is the initial diagnosis, because donkeys appear to differ from horses in their baseline ACTH (as well as so many other things). Please could you post the lab results here; and then go to EC History 8 and fill out a case history?  I will send you an invitation. Instructions on how to do it are in the Files section.

The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

Diagnosis is  by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH.
More information here:


and here:


Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.  Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil.  One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in.   The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed). Kathy, if you read my post to Janet, I mention a way to soak hay in a sub-freezing environment, and give some links to hay-soaking tips.  More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here:


Trim:  This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels.  Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle. The wrong trim can retard healing, and even cause further tearing of the fragile laminae. The wrong trim will certainly contribute to continued pain. Donkeys can be tough, as so many people trim them to the "tin-can" model. They need the right trim as well, just modified slightly (and the key word here is "slightly") to the donkey anatomy.

Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin.

There is also a ton of good information on the ecirhorse.org website.

Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
 


---In EquineCushings@..., wrote :

Hi  everyone.   I have a 32-36 year old donkey who was diagnosed with Cushings about 6 months ago........



Re: CONFUSED and would really like to get some advice

Karen Turek
 

I've updated the album Karen and Java with photos from Java's hind feet.  
Thanks again for all the help!

Karen and Java
Jan 2016 Colorado
ECHistory8

 



Re: Jiaogulan induced abcessing?

 

You're very welcome, Dawn. I'm glad I could offer a new and potential clue, in any case.

I would've never thought to have checked the starch levels in the TC Lite, given its name; that was before I really understood the vagaries of sugars and starches, too. 

Two other people and I must've been dreaming the same dream, as we all woke up one morning and decided to send off samples, unbeknownst to each other. When those numbers came back, we nearly fell over.

They will love the TC 30, guaranteed--just like the sugar and starch. Hopefully, you won't have to make that long drive to get it.

Jannalee

Jannalee Smithey, EDO, ESMT
http://www.nolaminitis.org/
http://www.ecirhorse.com
ECIR Group Inc.
Member, Board of Directors



Re: Jiaogulan induced abcessing?

Dawn Wagstaff
 

Jannalee, thank you so much. 

You have answered something that was in the back of my mind. I am dumbfounded at the starch level. 

I was thinking possibly iron overload since Lite has a significant amount of iron compared to Triple Crown's other products.  I never thought about that kind of varying starch level.

No wonder they like it so much.....I"ve used soy hull pellets in the past as a carrier, but I have to make a 3 hour round trip to buy and have gotten two different loads that were refused by my horses and smelled burned. I just gave up trying to deal with the inconsistancy, and knew that Lite was primarily soy hull pellets.

I can get TC 30 . The timothy pellets seem fine,but I'd rather use beet pulp. Maybe the  30 is the answer.

Dawn


Re: Jiaogulan induced abcessing?

 

Hi, Dawn,

I know you're getting excellent input from Dr. Kellon, but I just thought I'd tell you that my mare tipped into laminitis with 1 lb. of TC Lite several years ago. We were trying to "boost" our hay nutritionally, but didn't realize that the sugars and starches in the TC Lite formula were not consistent across each bag (they're made in several different places across the country). 

Several of us from different states sent samples off to Equi-Analytical and they came back with Starch values of 11%, 14%, and 17%, respectively. You can imagine our shock. Our hays in this part of the Pacific Northwest have starch values less than 1%, so that pound of "Lite" really rocked the boat.

I switched to TC 30 for flavoring, because the sugars and starches are guaranteed to be exactly the same from bag to bag (they're all made in the same plant); combined ESC and Starch is < 10% for the TC 30. I feed it at a rate of ¼ cup a day (I feed once daily), sprinkled on top of the soaked Ontario Dehy Cubes (works great on beet pulp, too). The horses turn handsprings and will gallop across the field for a handful, so yummy do they find it. 

Hope this helps,

Jannalee in Oregon
2008


Jannalee Smithey, EDO, ESMT
Yank Gulch Equine, LLC
ECIR Group Inc.
Member, Board of Directors





Re: Not as CONFUSED with the site at this point :-)

Karen Turek
 

Thank u so much! I wish I would have known about this group 5 yrs ago!!!! I would have saved myself the fortune I've spent on this mare and a lot of blood, sweat, tears, and frustration! I will get hind foot photos up tonight. Her hind feet are beautiful compared to the mess she has going on up front.


Re: Feeling depressed and confused!

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Emily - I couldn't find the ingredients for the Mysorb on the Alltech site, but if it contains clay (a common ingredient in toxin binders), it will contribute to excess iron in Cheyenne's system, and could be contributing to iron overload.

Here is a wee excerpt from an article on mycotoxins, with a link to the article below:

Binding Agents

Feed manufacturers often utilize binders of various types in feeds to tie up mycotoxins. These include clay-based binders and yeast cell wall extracts (e.g., Bio-Mos-M). Raymond et al. concluded that supplementation with 0.2% yeast cell wall extract (a polymeric glucomannan mycotoxin adsorbent) improved feed intake over feeding contaminated feed alone but not when compared to control diets not containing mycotoxins (2). The long-term effects of binding agents are not clear; therefore, they should be used with caution.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/info_mycotoxin.htm

Regarding her test results, was she fasted before the blood was taken?

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 


Thanks again for all and any thoughts on her case and what you'd suggest I do from here.

Emily Phillips
Cheyenne - 10 year old mare - TB x QH - Foundered Nov 2013
Located - Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jan 2014


Re: Jiaogulan induced abcessing?

Dawn Wagstaff
 

Dr. Kellon, thank you.
You are correct, there is no way the Uckele Senior and Grass Balancer were balancing my hay. I should have gotten an analysis done on the first cut hay or at least used my last analysis and just had a custom made up. I simply was looking for something they would eat that at least had some copper, zinc, selenium, in a reasonable amount. I was probably feeding around 1 pound a day or more of the Lite mixed into a cup of beet pulp to the mares to get them to eat their supplements.

They still aren't real enthusiastic about the U balance, but I have added Uckele's Equi Sweet and just a tablespoon or so of Lite on top to get them to eat it mixed into soaked Timothy pellets. No beet pulp currently. That is the only change in their feed and it is remarkable the difference in crests and tailhead, shoulder fat on the mares. The stallion has exhibited some positive changes, but not as quickly as they did. 

I have a call into my vet to have an ACTH, Insulin, Glucose and Leptin pulled and sent to Cornell for the stallion. (Always a challenge, he is an adjunct at Michigan State). As I stood and looked at him this morning,(he is slightly more comfortable, no shifting feet this morning), I thought, "if this was someone else's horse, I'd tell them he looks like he has Cushings" Sigh, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees.
Will continue the J herb and ALCAR.

Interesting point about their pasture turnout. I always turn them out with grazing muzzles on spring through into the first snowfall, usually in November. We have had constant rain, snow, warm temps, rain, etc. from December on. None of them seem too interested in their pastures, rather have hay.

Do pastures benefit from the same soaking and rinsing that hay does?

Dawn Wagstaff
Saline, MI 2003


Re: ECIR Ed and Outreach Vid Committee needs your help

janieclougher@...
 

Thanks, Joan - hang in there, and let us know if we can help in any way.

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

Yahoo! Groups

 



 
......With both the pony and the saddlebred we have overcome a lot and I am happy to say they are happy, comfortable.....
Thank you
Joan


Re: CONFUSED and would really like to get some advice

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Karen - great job on the case history and reports.  Java is absolutely beautiful!

(Lavinia and I must have been typing at the same time!)

She is definitely IR.  The lethargy and so on could be due to this; and it is interesting to note that IR horses can start getting into issues when they stop growing, at age 5 or so (depending on the horse), per Dr. Kellon.  Also, lethargy, anhydrosis and exercise intolerance can be hugely influenced by salt (sodium and chloride) intake, plus the other ions: potassium, magnesium, calcium and phosphate.

I will definitely defer to Dr. Kellon about this, but it seems to me that her signs are a little extreme for her degree of insulin resistance, and while the feet definitely show signs of insult, they don't seem to me to be bad enough to account for the lethargy you are seeing, especially since it seems so unpredictable. Of course, dietary hiccups out in the pasture (when she was on pasture) could theoretically account for sore feet one day, and not the next - but that isn't the norm. It is more commonly just sore feet for a prolonged period. 

Is there any chance that she could have hyperkalemic periodic paralysis? (HYPP)?  She doesn't have Impressive anywhere in her pedigree, does she?

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php


Regarding the Feed XL, the ratio of iron to copper and zinc they use might be okay for a normal horse, but IR horses need an iron:copper:zinc ratio of 4:1:3.  That means Java should be getting 460 mg of copper, and 1380 mg of zinc, plus 690 mg of manganese. Once the copper gets above 4 X the NRC requirements, it is a good idea to have 2X the requirement for calcium, (or 43.6 grams calcium), but you are pretty close to that with the 42.9 grams.  For sure, though, I would increase her Vitamin E to 2,000 IU daily, using a formulation that has some oil in it, such as 400 IU capsules containing soy oil. Vitamin E is not well absorbed unless it is touching a fat or oil. You could continue using the UltraCruz, but increase the amount an mix it with a snifter (like less than a teaspoon) of olive oil and flax oil before feeding. Also, for horses not on pasture, it is important to replace the omega 3 fatty acids with ground, stabilized flax, 2 to 4 ounces daily. 

Just as an aside, magnesium oxide (56% to 58% magnesium) is better absorbed by horses than chelated magnesiums, and is quite a lot cheaper.  Your feed store might initially look at you like you have two heads at the beginning, but if you persist they should be able to order it in for you.

Is she too plump?  I would have to say: not excessively, but thinner is always better (within reason).

I can't account for her frequent sinus issues - again, one can see this with really uncontrolled IR, but this seems a little extreme in her case.  Much more common in Cushing's. The fact that her ACTH was a very small amount higher in February than the reference range might mean that she had quite a high spike during the seasonal rise,  but hard to say.  Was she trailered for the blood work? Was she exercised before the blood work?

I will defer to Lavinia about the feet, but this is what I see: the front of the toe is much too long. One of the give-aways here is that the sole has crept out and is covering the white line. This low-heel, long-toe, stretched-sole scenario is what contributes to the thin sole. The sole has no chance to grow in depth because it is constantly being pulled forward by the long toe.

In addition, it looks to me like the bottom of the coffin bone is ground-parallel, and likely ground-negative when she moves. There is a broken-back angle of the coffin bone to the other bones on x-ray.  This is an uncomfortable scenario for movement.

The heels are forward and contracted. You have very little room to move with the coffin bone so low in the hoof capsule, but delicately shaving the backs of the heels to try to move the heels back without losing height could help.  At the same time, it looks like the bottom edge at the front of the toe has too much wall height, thus further tipping the foot back. You will have to be uber careful in removing any height up front: just take away the wall that is sticking way above the sole.

The whole foot is peripherally loaded, meaning the weight is all on the hoof walls, This can be addressed by a strong bevel to reduce weight bearing on the walls; since she is in soft-rides, there should be no concern for footsoreness. For more  about this, you can look at Dr. Bowker's information on the Suspensory Apparatus of the Coffin Bone. It is in the 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, and the pdf's are free to download:

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings/2-uncategorised/33-proceedings-recordings-table-of-contents

The soft-rides don't cause sole-thinning. Sinking of the bony column (or more correctly, as Dr. Bowker says, rising of the hoof capsule), combined with a long toe and forward heels cause sole-thinning.  In other words, the trim is likely the culprit here.  Your instincts were right on the money with regards to keeping that toe back.

It really goes to show how important radiographs are, because on Java's feet you really can't see the real issues without the rads. There is some medio-lateral imbalance as well, and you can actually see the rings on the hoof wall better on the rads than on the surface of the hoof capsule.

Something else to bear in mind is that some of our members have had success using a glue-on Epona shoe for building sole depth - but the trim has to be spot-on. It gets expensive, because you have to re-set them every 3-4 weeks, and they sometimes can't be reset so you have to use new ones each time.

Hope this helps a little!


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