Re: Messages: Startin new, searching old, viewing

Nancy C

Hi Sara

I split off your message with a new subject line to accurately reflect this conversation.  This helps us searching.

Starting a new thread. The easiest way is from the web page, click on NEW TOPIC in the menu list to the left.

Searching takes some practice. You can get responses to your search request in order of relevance, or by earliest or newest date. Look to the upper right corner for those two buttons to change how you view the search results.

FWIW - in order to find info on "Exceed" I had to be very, very specific. Will send info in next email.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group

Re: Messages: Startin new, serching old, viewing


I too would love to know more about the use of that antibiotic.

Linda, 2012, Missouri

Sent from my iPad

On May 12, 2016, at 9:56 AM, Sara Gooch <sgooch2@...> wrote:


Apologies for tagging on to this, but I'm not figuring out how to start a new thread in IO, or do much of anything else.  Could someone please explain how to start a new topic in this IO format? Also how to search the archived messages about a specific topic? When I go to the main group site and hit "Messages" it starts with messages from the year 2000.  I'm trying to find information about using  the antibiotic "Exceed" for an IR and PPID horse. 

Thank you very much--

Sara, 2011, NE California

Messages: Startin new, serching old, viewing

Sara Gooch


Apologies for tagging on to this, but I'm not figuring out how to start a new thread in IO, or do much of anything else.  Could someone please explain how to start a new topic in this IO format? Also how to search the archived messages about a specific topic? When I go to the main group site and hit "Messages" it starts with messages from the year 2000.  I'm trying to find information about using  the antibiotic "Exceed" for an IR and PPID horse. 

Thank you very much--

Sara, 2011, NE California

Re: White Line Photo Album


Just what I was hoping for!  Thank you so very much Dr. Kellon!!

Is the white line area what we see of the lamina when looking at the bottom of the horse's hoof?


Sally 04/2013

Big Park, Arizona

Re: Case Histories: What You Need To Know, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 #cal-notice


Thank you for your replies and guidance on how to print the dosage file. Vet came that day and he did say he would write a rx for pergolide.  Sent email May 8th with request and haven't heard yet, figured give a week or so.  Tom was just diagnosed one month ago and currently on 1 mg Prascend.  When telling him that 23% need more than 8 mg of pergolide he said that no way unless there were underlying issues that a horse would need that much.  In the event that changes I will print that and show him the results.  I understand that a vet cannot be an expert in every single issues that's why I'm very thankful for this group that focuses on Cushings and the effects from that.  Sometimes for not only ourselves but our pets I've had to be an advocate and research to get the proper care.  It would be humanly impossible for a doctor to be an expert on everything.  

Cheryl in MN

Re: Break out

Lorna Cane

Hi Sasha,

You're doing fine. I'm glad your ponies seem okay,after their breakout.

>> I feel really stupid and guilty for not realizing this .

We don't allow self-abuse here. :)

I think it's safe to say that most of us have been where you are now.We aren't born knowing everything there is to know about looking after our horses.

But you're sure in the right place here to find out everything you want to know.

One step at a steps,even.

And,by the way,you're off to a great start......."but I have become aware that there is not any scientific studies done on it ."


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


Break out


Hello, I am new and also not good at navigating / posting/ uploading info on these groups...but I want to do the best by my horses and I am trying to learn as fast as I can. I have 4 horses. One young mustang 3 years old who is healthy but my vet says I need to watch because "mustangs are easy keepers" and the other three are big minis / small ponies...2 geldings are in good shape kit fat according to vet but my mini mare is fat and has a cresty neck. They all live out together 24/7 on a track and have free choice hay and get fed AZ copper complete with manganese removed. We live in costal Maine. I filter their water. They broke out of their track about three days ago and I have been giving them a Chinese herbal powder called mmp stop by for the love of horses? I feel really stupid for doing that now and don't know why I trusted it...nothing bad has come of it that I can tell but I have become aware that there is not any scientific studies done on it to know that it at least will not do any harm (I feel really stupid and guilty for not realizing this ). They don't seem to have any problems but j am scared, a worry wart, bad at computers, and here. And I love my horses and want the best for them.

Re: White Line Photo Album

Abigail Morris <morris.abigail@...>

Really interesting to have these photos side by side - thanks!

Abigail Morris
Côte d'Or, France

Sent from my iPad

White Line Photo Album

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

New photo album up here called White Line Separation.

Eleanor in PA

EC Owner 2001

Re: Case Histories: What You Need To Know, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 #cal-notice

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>

Hi Cheryl,
Just checking to see if you managed to print out your case history?
I showed mine to a few vets and had to keep picking their jaws up from the barn floor.  One just kept scrolling thru it on my phone saying "This is fantastic!".  
Today's technology makes it so much easier to just show things to vets instead of saying, it is on the website.  


- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats
Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

Sugar-free Flavorings

Donna Coughlin

Mini Duke turned his nose up at all the powdered possibilities other have mentioned, as well as dried peppermint and the Uckele flavorings. I believe it was someone on Housekeeping mentioned Torani sugar-free peppermint syrup (available on Amazon, AmazonSmile). Once opened, it doesn’t need to be refrigerated (I called the mfr.), but it is definitely not “natural;” the sweetener is Splenda.  However, it works! Most days Duke finishes his Nuzu with supplements, but on the days when he turns his little nose up, this has been great.

Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin and Obi
CT 2009

Re: Cushings and Foot Soreness


Hi Amanda,

Welcome to the group!  You're doing everything just fine, so not to worry!  I read your case history on Gumby--thank you for filling that out!  And thank you for including the links to your CH and photos in your signature!  Makes them SO easy to find!

You are so right that there is a lot of *mis*information out there about Cushing's (PPID) and IR (insulin resistance).  Fortunately, you have come to the right place for the most up to date, science based information on the conditions.  And you'll find lots of great support here too!  I'm going to give you a rundown of our basic philosophy, which is called DDT/E, short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise, and try to answer your questions as I go along.  Grab a cup of coffee!

Diagnosis:  Sounds like you have at least a partial diagnosis, of PPID.  Did you also test Gumby for insulin resistance?  A horse can be IR at baseline but also an elevated ACTH can cause the insulin to be out of control, so it's important to know if he just has PPID, or if he is also IR, which he Gumby likely is.  We recommend 4 tests to get a complete diagnosis--ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin--to be sent to Cornell.  It's important to get a full diagnosis because a horse that has IR in addition to PPID is going to also need a carefully managed low sugar starch diet in addition to the pergolide (Prascend).  Can you either upload copies of the lab work you've done so far into your CH folder or put the results in the "blood work results" section of your CH so that we can see all of your numbers in one place, please?  It's good that you have Gumby on the Prascend.  We recommend retesting the ACTH 3 weeks after you reach your target dose, so at 5 days, it may be that you retested a bit too early to see the results of the increase you made from 1 mg to 1.5 mgs.

Diet:  The diet is supremely important both for what you DO feed as well as what you DON'T feed!  First, what you DO feed--a low carb, (less than 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or less), mineral balanced diet.  To achieve this, we use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.

Until you can get your hay tested, we recommend that you use the emergency diet.  Details can be found in the START HERE file linked here: and also on our website here:  It does involve soaking your hay for 30 minutes in hot water or an hour in cold water to remove approximately 30% of the sugar content.  Make sure that you dump the water where the horse(s) can't get to it.  We like EquiAnalytical for hay testing.  Here's a link: 

You want the #603 trainer's package for $54.  Call them and ask them for some free forage kits which contain everything you need to send in your hay sample, including a postage paid envelope.  If you don't have a hay probe or know anyone that does, call your local coop or extension office and ask if they have one that they lend out.  They often do.  Once you know your hay is safe, ie under 10% sugar+starch, you can contact someone on the following list to get help with balancing Gumby's diet:  

I looked at the Essential K and KalmNEz.  Unfortunately Tribute doesn't provide the sugar and starch levels, but they are both a minimum of 6% fat--could be more.  A diet too high in fat can actually induce IR.  They also contain some ingredients not recommended for IR horses, including Thiamine, Riboflavin and Niacin.  They also both have iron added.  Since most IR horses are usually iron overloaded we don't want to add any extra iron to their diets.  They get plenty of iron in their hay!  I would stop both of those feeds and use either rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp or another safe carrier for your emergency diet supplements.  Other safe carriers include Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes, NuzuStabul1, soy hull pellets.  You should be able to get ODTB's anywhere that carries Triple Crown products.

I also looked at the ExcelEQ.  You definitely want to add Omega 3's to Gumby's diet, but I cannot find exactly what's in the ExcelEQ.  We use ground flax seed to replace the Omega 3's and 6's that are missing from the diet of a non-grazing horse because the Omega3:6 profile most closely matches that of fresh grass, about 4:1.  And lots of us use Vitamin E gel caps for the Vitamin E.  Just want to make sure that there is oil (usually soy) in the ingredients list so that it get absorbed properly.

Now for what you DON'T feed--No pasture. YES, I would certainly rip up the rest of the grass in his paddock.  Short stubby, stressed grass can be very high in sugar!  Also, no grain.  No sugary treats, including apples and carrots.  No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron and sometimes molasses, and interfere with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only.  No products containing molasses. 

Trim: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis, as you unfortunately have already found out. Getting the trim right is often the missing link in getting a laminitic horse comfortable again.  Look on the following pages of our website for more information about a proper trim.  Here: and here:  

Though we don't advocate either shoes or barefoot, we recommend that the horse be barefoot during the rehab period to accommodate the frequent trimming needed during this time.  Have you tried putting Gumby in boots and pads to make him comfortable?  There are lots of easy on/off rehab boots available.  Here's a couple of choices: and 

It would be great if you could  put the radiographs and some hoof pics in Gumby's photo album for our hoof guru to see if you have a proper rehab trim in place.  Here's a site that shows how to take good hoof photos:

Exercise: This is the best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic, so obviously not a choice for Gumby at this time.  As he improves, you can start to hand walk him in long straight lines with no tight turns which would stress the new laminae as they grow in.  No riding or exercising in tight circles until at least 1/2-2/3 of the hoof damaged by laminitis has grown out (at least 6-12 months, sometimes longer).  

OK Amanda, that about wraps up the DDT/E philosophy.  I hope I answered your questions.  Make sure you read over our website and the files.  There is also a TON of information in the archived messages, but don't hesitate to ask any further questions you may have!  Hang in there, it will get easier!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Cushings and Foot Soreness

Amanda Rinz <amanda.r.rinz@...>


Sorry if I'm doing this wrong - first time user! I think I have everything I need, but my horse's case history and photos will be updated shortly, once I get more info from my vet and updated photos.

I entered into this new journey in February, after owning horses for dozens of years and never having one with Cushings. I began to read as much as I could, but most of it is contradicting so I had to try and judge for myself. The problem I'm currently having with my gelding is that he's extremely foot sore, especially in his LF. He's had Steward Clogs on as soon as we realized he foundered (showed none of the normal symptoms), he did well for the first few weeks and is starting to regress again. On April 18th my farrier took his clogs off only to realize he could barely stand, which resulted in an emergency call to the vet for xrays. She confirmed there was no degeneration, but his angles were off. After a light trim and modification to the clogs they were reapplied and he was able to stand. Yesterday marked 3 weeks since the reapplication and he's sore. Not to the point he's laying down in extreme pain, but ask him to do more than a brief walk and it's certainly noticeable. I'm very concerned when June 2nd comes for his trim that we'll be back in the same position as I was in April.

He's currently in a 60 ft x 60 ft area basically grubbing the dirt. He gets 2 lb. of Essential K and 2 lb. of Kalm N Ez at night, with 1 1/2 tabs of Prascend. He is shedding, his attitude is good, but he's on the thin side (always been a hard keeper). He's getting roughly 35 lbs. of hay a day - mostly a grass/alfalfa mix. Is it possible what I'm feeding him is causing the soreness? Should I consider ripping up the rest of his area so it's just dirt? I'm at a total loss right now. His last test was the TRH test on 4/22 and his level was approx. 500, with normal being 100. This was 5 days post upping his medication from 1 tab to 1 1/2 tabs at the advice of the vet.

Thank You!!


May 2016

Ovid, Michigan

Gumby Case History, Photo Album

Re: Is cushings genetic?

Connie Proceviat

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 03:21 pm, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:

Probably not.  PPID horses are not predisposed to oxidative stress.  There is evidence of it in the hypothalamus of PPID horses, but not body-wide and not connected to glucose metsbolism (which is not always abnormal in PPID horses).  The effect of APF on IR has never really been clearly defined.

Thank you Dr. Kellon for the explanation.

Kindest Regards,

Connie & Falki

Manitoba Canada Aug 2013

Re: Mimi and Scarlet trim mark-ups

Mimi Costley

Hi Lavinia,
My farrier, Bryan trimmed Scarlet this morning and is coming back in 2 weeks. He studied your instructions and markups and took off more toe and flair than he had in the past. He says he knows he should take off more but it is hard to take that big a step I think. I looked in the photos for some good before and after shots, but didn't fine any. I know I have seen some before and maybe they are on the old site. If you can tell me where some are, I know that would help.

Bryan is interested in joining the group.

I did have a question about "moving the heels back". I think that means that by shortening the toes, the heels will start growing backward to bear the weight. Maybe trimming the bars also allows them to do this?


Mimi and Scarlet Feb 2016
northern VA


On Thu, 4/21/16, Lavinia Fiscaletti <shilohmom@...> wrote:

Subject: [ECIR] Mimi and Scarlet trim mark-ups
Date: Thursday, April 21, 2016, 1:51 PM

Hi Mimi,I've created
an album for Scarlet and posted all her photos, plus the
mark-ups, in the Groups i.o. Case History Photos section
Currently, the photos section loads pix alphabetically by
default but if you click on the small box in the upper right
hand side of the album that says "sort by name" it
opens a list of options for ordering the photos. Click on
"Posted" with the downward-facing arrow, and the
latest pix are moved to the front of the album. It won't
maintain that order if you leave the album, however. working
on seeing if we can make that aspect more functional for our
As mentioned before, the trim has many of the
standard issues - toes are too long in the horizontal plane,
heels are under run, frogs stretched, walls are flaring and
there are some medial-lateral imbalances. All of this is
totally fixable - even at 34 yo. The keys are going to be
getting the trim corrected and maintaining a short enough
trim cycle that the issues do not manage to get ahead of the
corrections. This usually means an initial 2 week cycle to
address the issues, then sliding out to 4-5 weeks once the
trim has been optimized. These are general time frames -
each horse's trim needs to be based on how much growth
there is, what the footing is like and how much actual
movement the horse gets as these factors all play into how
much wear the hoof capsule receives.LF lateral: Green
line follows the new angle of the tightly attached hoof wall
toward the ground. The green hashed area is where the toe is
much too long horizontally and needs to be backed. This
should be done from the top, perpendicular to the ground.
The resulting wall will be reminiscent of a Pug's face.
Do not recommend rasping the dorsal wall flat to make the
hoof capsule appear pretty as that will only thin an area
that is already weakened. Allow it to grow out on it's
own over time as the shortened toe keeps the laminar
connections tight rather than stretching and creating that
dished profile. Yellow lines are following several of the
tubules to illustrate the bending/distortion that is
occurring. Orange lines are bulges in the coronary band that
mimic bulges in the growth rings, which are due to wall
imbalances at ground level. Red is where the heels should be
but aren't.LF sole: Green line is where to back
the toe to and bring the flaring, detached walls in.
Shouldn't remove any sole in the front half of the foot
only literally back the toe from the top. Purple is where
the heel buttresses should be, even with the widest part of
the frog and each other. Currently, they are forward of this
location, with the medial one a bit further forward than the
lateral. Note that the frog is stretched forward and a bit
contracted, with the red chevron marking the actual true
tip. Yellow is the where it appears as if the wall-heel
juncture occurs but it is actually back adjacent to the true
heel buttresses (follow blue arrow). Pink areas are where
the bars have leaned outward and pooled over the sole The
medial bar is more distorted than the lateral and is putting
pressure on the medial quarter, pushing it outward as
well.RF Dorsal: Yellow line shows the current
medial-lateral imbalance, with the lateral wall taller than
the medial. This is contributing to the excessive flaring in
the medial wall as it is being pressured by the inward
weight-bearing shift. Blue follows the true wall angles,
highlighting the flaring. Good that the walls have been
beveled at ground level as this helps deflect shearing
forces away from the damaged walls but need to rasp away
those flared areas altogether as well.RF sole: Pretty
similar to the LF but this foot is a tad more upright and
narrow overall. Assuming the hole is an abscess drainage
spot. Green is again where to back the toe to and bring the
flaring walls inward. Yellow is where the heel buttresses
need to be, even with the widest part of the frog and each
other. Purple is where the heel buttresses currently reside.
Orange is where the wall-bar juncture appears to be, follow
the arrows to where it actually is, adjacent to the true
buttresses and buried under migrated forward heels and bars.
Pink are the areas of overgrown, pooling bars material. Need
to tame these back gradually as they are a vital part of the
support structures that proliferate when the primary
weight-bearing structures are compromised. No amputations,
just judicious slivering at each trim to encourage them back
into their more upright configuration. Frog is a bit
narrower and more atrophied in this foot, which goes along
with the narrower configuration of this hoof capsule. Red is
the true tip of the frog.When moving the heels back,
need to keep in mind that it is likely the hoof-pastern axis
is broken back, with the coffin bone sitting more ground
parallel (or even negative plane) than it should be. This
means that the overall hoof capsule height in the rear of
the foot is lower than it should be in relation to the front
half. Although backing the toe in the horizontal plane does
result in some loss of height (a good thing in this
scenario), you don't want to remove any more than a
sliver of height - one pass of the rasp over the backs of
the heels - at each trim so as to keep from making the
scenario worse.
Lavinia, Dante, George Too and PeanutJan 05,
RIEC Support Team

Re: Sugar-free Flavorings

Abigail Morris <morris.abigail@...>

I've started using chopped carob (carob kibble) in the mix - it tastes very sweet but is sugar free - my 4 horses love it.

Sent from my iPad

Re: Sugar-free Flavorings

Abigail Morris <morris.abigail@...>

apologies, hit send too soon,

Abigail Morris
Côte d'Or
NRC+ 2012

Sent from my iPad

Re: Sugar-free Flavorings


thanks Pauline - FYI - the stevia is super sweet...1/32 of a teaspoon is equivalent sweetness to a teaspoon of sugar.

On 5/9/2016 5:58 PM, Pauline wrote:

From an archive search:

It depends on how much you're feeding.
Dr. Kellon approved the powdered herbs such as stevia, fenugreek, peppermint,anise seed, beet root, apple fiber, etc. as safe for IR horses; as long as they were fed at the rate of 1 tsp per 2 pounds of feed or 1/2 tsp per 1 pound of feed. You may find some taste-tempting flavors in Picky Eaters:



Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

Sharon Pickthorne
One on One Software Training
Chair - NVI Chapter, BCHBC
Director, Horse Council BC
Chair - Joint Trails and Access Committee

Re: Sugar-free Flavorings

Alyssa Litty

I thought I read , someone correct me if I'm wrong, the flavorings from uckele were safe. Sure hope so because that's what I've drizzled just a little on to get my horse use to everything, I've switched 2 actually. One who wouldn't touch beet pulp with a 10 foot pole and just loves the stuff. 
Alyssa Litty and Hott Rodd 
Sent from my iPhone

On May 9, 2016, at 10:09 PM, Stephanie Stout <KWPNDRESSAGE@...> wrote:

Thank you for the replies, Pauline and Sharon.

What would be an okay amount for an herbal powder such as Stevia, Beet Root, Carrot, etc for ~2 cups of low s/s grain with his herbs/supplements? 1/4 tsp? 

I think I'm going to order a couple and give it a try. Thank you again. 
Stephanie & King
October 2014
Case History 

Re: Sugar-free Flavorings

Stephanie Stout

Thank you for the replies, Pauline and Sharon.

What would be an okay amount for an herbal powder such as Stevia, Beet Root, Carrot, etc for ~2 cups of low s/s grain with his herbs/supplements? 1/4 tsp? 

I think I'm going to order a couple and give it a try. Thank you again. 
Stephanie & King
October 2014
Case History 

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