|
Re: Proadd Ultimate question
Hi Deb To Lorna's list I would add manganese proteinate and manganous sulfide. Your hay has plenty of manganese.
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR
Genevieve
Hi Lorna, On what basis are you stating that Rose is cushing, in other words what are your seasonal reference values? Guelph has stated they do not have reference for the seasonal rise period. And Idexx has > 22. I will try to take new hoof pictures over the week-end. Awaiting answers to question 1 when possible. Thanks, -- Genevieve March 2012 Hemmingford, Quebec Rose Case History, Photo Album
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Cushing / IR..?
Sherry Morse
Hello Heather and welcome to the list,
There
is quite a steep learning curve here, but hang in there, read a little bit at a
time, and it will all start to make sense. We all had to have a bit of a
paradigm shift about horse-keeping when we started but the pay-off in the
health of your horse makes it all worthwhile. The tried-and-true protocol for this group, as put forth by Dr.
Kellon, is this: Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim (DDT/E) Diagnosis: The best way to get a
diagnosis is to get a single, non-fasting blood pull in a quiet barn (don't
trailer to the vet, as this can cause false increases in ACTH). The horse
should have hay in front of it for at least four hours before the blood pull,
but no concentrates. Schedule the vet visit for at least 4 hours after
the first meal of the day if the horse isn't on hay 24/7. Blood is
pulled into serum separator tubes and purple-topped tubes; kept cool (but not
frozen); then spun and separated as soon as possible. Freeze the serum
and plasma, and send on ice via overnight courier to Cornell Animal Health
Laboratory. Your vet may (and probably will) initially find this all a
huge PITA, but once she/he does it a couple of times it will be old
hat. Ask for: ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin.
Thyroid is not really necessary - most PPID and IR horses show secondary low
thyroid levels, which come up to normal when the conditions and diets are
normalized (primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in the horse) More
information here: DDT + E - Diagnosis Diet: The
basic dietary needs for a PPID and/or IR horse is essentially a low
sugar/starch forage (ie hay, not pasture); if the hay is not tested, then best
soak for 1 hour in cold water. For the Temporary Emergency Diet, add 1
tbspn salt, 2,000 IU Vitamin E (in capsules containing soy oil, or use Uckele
Liquid E); 2 to 4 ounces stabilized ground flax (to replace omega 3 fatty
acids); 1/2 tsp magnesium oxide; and for vitamins/minerals, you can use one of
the following on a temporary basis until you can get your hay tested and find
out what your horse really needs. The following products are made without
added iron, and no or very minimal manganese, so will not exacerbate iron
overload while you are getting things sorted out. California Trace or California Trace Plus; California Trace - Nutritional Support for Horses or Uckele U-Balance Foundation (NOT U-Balance IR) http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/u-balance-foundation.html or Arizona Regional Mix http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-regional-mix or Colorado Regional Mix: http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix Please
note that these balancers may or may not correct the deficiencies of your
horse's forage. All are truly excellent products, but they are a temporary
stop-gap while you are waiting for hay analysis. They are also not designed to
address the major minerals (magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus) What
is really important in the diet is what you don't feed: no
sweet feeds, no bagged feeds that have more than 10% combined ESC plus starch
(and should also be below 4.5% starch); no carrots, apples, grain or grazing
until everything is diagnosed and sorted out.
For
good information about diet balancing, go here:
http://www.desertequinebalance.com And
for the best information, go here: http://drkellon.com Trim is balanced to the internal structures of the hoof, with a short
toe and not high heels, or low, under-run heels.
Exercise is as able: For the
healthy, non-laminitic horse, the more exercise the better, as it helps reduce
insulin levels. For the previously laminitic horse, no riding or
turns/lunging/round-penning until at least half of a new hoof growth cycle has
occurred (6 to 12 months).
To
really help us to help you, it would be wonderful if you could fill out a case
history on your horse. To do that you'll need to join the Case History
(CH) group:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory and then follow the instructions here: When you join, you will be emailed a copy of the CH form and
instructions for setting up a folder and uploading and organizing your
information.
Your hay analysis and lab work will go into your CH folder.
Your xrays and hoof pics go into the PHOTOS section of that CH group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos
Short
version of that tediously long post: Fill
out a case history for your horse. Read
the information about diet balancing Read
the overviews of Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here Please sign all of your posts with your name, your horse's
name, the year/month that you joined, your location and the link to your case
history once completed. That helps us answer any questions you have.
Thanks, Sherry and Scarlet EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scarlet/Scarlet%20Case%20History.doc
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Cushing / IR..?
ladyofthewood3@...
I am new to this group and have some question and wondering how to proceed with my daughter's horse. She is showing no "problematic" symptoms, but she does have a few appearance type symptoms and I am wondering how to proceed. Here are some of her symptoms......she grows an incredibly LONG (like 3") winter coat. She begins to shed out with all the other horses. Last year she did not quite fully shed out, but when I gave her a herbal digestive cleanse she completely shed out to a beautiful and compact / short shiny coat. This year she did not, although all the horses were really late shedding, but her coat is only compact in a few areas and quite dull. It is not curly unless it gets wet, then it is. She does not have noticeable heat cycles. She is quite flabby and unfit.....but she is also not worked hard. I don't want to create a problem where it does not exist, but it might also be nice to start getting her some support before there are problems. She has no issues with her hooves. They are in great shape. She is out full time so has access to grass all the time there is no snow on it, and she is fine. She is 12ish years old and an Appy or Appy x. Could this be another hormonal type condition with some shared symptoms..? I have not had the vet out about this. I wanted to get more information before I started down that route....and also knowing some vets are not 100% savvy on this subject. thank you, Heather
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: ADV: Question about Stabilized flax
What is
the optimal way to store a 25# bag of Triple Crown Omega MAX
to keep it as fresh as possible over a long period of time?
Should we divide it up into freezer bags and store it in the
freezer?
Linda and Thistle |
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR
Hi Genevieve, You said, "I was interpreting the results based on the following email from the Idexx technical support:" I just wanted to backup what Lavinia has already said. Rose is definitely Cushing's according to her test results. She is also IR. Can you post some hoof pix ? Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Proadd Ultimate question
Hi Deborah, I wouldn't want to feed the yellow-marked items if it were my horse: Soy Protein Isolate, Flaxseed, Whey Protein Concentrate, Dried Whey, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Yeast Culture, Vegetable Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Copper Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Copper Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Selenium Yeast, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, d-Biotin, Ascorbic Acid, Active Dried Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product DehydratedNatural Flavors. And 55% protein seems high to me, but I haven't figured it out in grams . Can you link us to a case history,to help volunteers advise you better,seeing the whole picture?
Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Proadd Ultimate question
Hi Deb Have you checked ACTH?
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Proadd Ultimate question
Deborah Ide
My horse's equine dentist (who is a vet) was just here to float Tara's teeth. We got to talking about IR, nutrition, etc..He mentioned that Tara'stop line didn't look quite as well as it should. That was something I noticed also in the last week or two after she lost some weight because I cut her fed back a bit due to the regular vet telling me that she should lose about 50 pounds or so back in June. Equine dentist vet does a lot of investigating of all sorts of horse related issues and suggested she might not be getting enough protein. He recommended a product called Proadd Ultimate by Progressive Nutrition. It has low NSC. I would like to get some feedback on what the experts think about feeding this along with a hay (low protein of 7% or so) and the mineal mix balanced to it, just to give her more protein for muscle development. I know we could use whey powder but wondering if this would work well also. Thanks, Deborah In Tennessee November 2012
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Mare passed away have a few things to pass on if interested
Sharon Manning
The Sox for Horses (whinny warmers) have been spoken for. The Stabul 1 is 15 bags. I will let in go for 10.00 per bag for the lot. Otherwise it will just go to ruin. I hope someone can use it. I am in Knoxville TN. Sharon
Cushing/IR 05
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Mare passed away have a few things to pass on if interested
Sharon Manning
Yes she was amazing. I will be missing her for a very long time. thanks Sharon
Cushing/IR 05
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: slaframine, herbs
Hi again Monti Control of paddocks and pasture has been and is discussed at length on ECHorsekeeping. Folks have discussed the used of vinegar and slat, round up, flame throwers. I would not replant for an IR horse. https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/messages
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=slobbers
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Question about Stabilized flax
Hi Monti Not sure what you mean by "the issue with B Vitamins was accounted for", however, want to say as Lavinia did, that ECIR does not recommend B vitamins thiamine, niacin and riboflavin for IR horses. I use up my 40-pound custom from Horsetech in their flax in less than three months - usually 6 weeks - without issue. Members have used distillers grain when their horses were allergic to flax. Some horses are allergic to yeast. Here are some archived posts on stabilized flax https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=posterid%3A58231+%22stabilized+flax%22 If you have high calcium hay, do not get stabilized flax with added calcium. Horsetech will do that for you. Uckele Equi-Omega does not have added calcium. s far as I am aware, there are no concerns for using fresh ground or stabilized flax for IR horses. Some folks feed them whole. Not sure the question of getting the omegas from whole has been answered. They do not need to be boiled.
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
slaframine, herbs
jakehorse10
Jake has the worst slobbers ever, what can I do!? I am in a boarding barn, he has his own run out pasture, very short (also stressed from drought and high humidity). Are there any 'safe' chemicals to kill the clover? What could be reseeded safely to replace it (so it does not just return in vengeance)? I have seen articles on planting various herbs, echinacea, mint, chamomile, calendula, fennel, dandelions or others? Is there a risk with too much of any these with an IR horse? I also have read that certain herb combinations may not be good/safe; is this a concern with any of these? I have read the files on herbs and have ordered some from Mountain Rose Herbs mentioned in one article. Is there anything to feed the horse in the interim to help with slobbers? I don't know if it is as bad for him as me, but he literally has a constant flow. I do not have any other pasture to move him into. Monti in Michigan Jake 2010
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR
Genevieve
Hi Lavinia, Thanks for the speedy response. I was interpreting the results based on the following email from the Idexx technical support: Significant variations in plasma ACTH concentration associated with the season have been reported. An endogenous ACTH measured between November and I just wrote to Guelph directly to obtain reference values associated to the seasonal rise period. Can you help me nail down question #1 about minimal exercice? Thanks! -- Genevieve March 2012 Hemmingford, Quebec Rose Case History, Photo Album
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Question about Stabilized flax
jakehorse10
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 05:19 am, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 03:22 pm, jakehorse10 wrote:Hi, I am now totally 100% confused! I was using HorseTech BioFlax Ultra as a base for my custom minerals; Dr. Kellon mentioned that this was not the best thing so I have been trying to switch. Is flax ok as a mineral base or is it just risky as it can get rancid or ??? Very helpful, thank you!! So to summarize, please confirm if I am correct. Using HorseTech BioFlax Ultra is fine with minerals mixed in if used within a short period of time (1 month for ex. would be best). Now it makes sense as I was buying a 25 lb custom mix which would usually be 'rejected' by Jake when it was near the bottom. My custom mineral mix took into account the ingredients in this flax, so the issue with B vitamins was accounted for. Nutra-Flax is also fine, but again as a base, all flax should ideally be used within a short time. I am switching to a mix of distillers grain/yeast as a base for my minerals. This new mix will take into account ALL the minerals from the BioFlax Ultra and my balancing (which took into account that I was using BioFlax Ultra). I will feed Nutra-flax on the side for the added omegas, but I will have my diet rebalanced to take all these changes into account.
Are there any concerns with palatability, shelf life, or other, with distillers grain/yeast? Perhaps an expert could summarize the use of flax, distillers grain, yeast, etc. to post in the files section. My barn, for example, is convinced they should boil flax seeds, others believe in feeding raw. What is the differenced between milled, unmilled, stabilized, etc. and which should we be concerned about for our IR horses? Thank you so much and sorry for the long post. Monti in Michigan Jake 2010
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
metabarol
In my search for a vet who will treat the seasonal rise I talked with a vet who suggested metabarol. Anyone have experience with this and would using it affect my balanced diet? My vet agreed to increase prescription dose of prascend to 1 1/2 mg but as soon as I put the dose back (I had had her on two without the vets support) she has become foot sore again. I have a call into Cornell to ask their protocol or recommendations on treating the seasonal rise. There just don't seem to be any vets here with much experience with this. I know this is a bold request but would Dr. Kellon or one of you others who are vets talk with my vet? Do you ever do that? Does anyone have any other suggestions? -- Amy and Kat May 2016 Hammondsport, NY https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Kat https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=122
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Lami help
Hello and welcome to the list, There is quite a steep learning curve here, but hang in
there, read a little bit at a time, and it will all start to make sense.
We all had to have a bit of a paradigm shift about horse-keeping when we
started but the pay-off in the health of your horse
makes it all worthwhile.
The
tried-and-true protocol for this group, as put forth by Dr. Kellon, is
this: Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim (DDT/E)
Diagnosis:
You currently have a diagnosis of Cushings (PPID); but do you know what the
actual status of the PPID is? In other words, is the pergolide=Prascend dose
adequate to control the Cushings? Under-controlled PPID can often result
in insulin resistance. In addition, your boy may be insulin-resistant at
baseline. The best way to get a diagnosis is to get a single, non-fasting
blood pull in a quiet barn (don't trailer to the vet, as this can cause false
increases in ACTH). The horse should have hay in front of it for at least
four hours before the blood pull, but no concentrates. Schedule the vet
visit for at least 4 hours after the first meal of the day if the horse isn't
on hay 24/7. Blood is pulled into serum separator tubes and
purple-topped tubes; kept cool (but not frozen); then spun and separated as
soon as possible. Freeze the serum and plasma, and send on ice via
overnight courier to Cornell Animal Health Laboratory. Your vet may (and
probably will) initially find this all a huge PITA, but once she/he does it a couple of times it will be old
hat. Ask for: ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin.
Thyroid is not really necessary - most PPID and IR horses show secondary low
thyroid levels, which come up to normal when the conditions and diets are
normalized (primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in the horse)
More
information here: DDT + E - Diagnosis
Diet:
The basic dietary needs for a PPID and/or IR horse is
essentially a low sugar/starch forage (ie hay, not pasture); if the hay is not
tested, then best soak for 1 hour in cold water. For the Temporary
Emergency Diet, add 1 tbspn salt, 2,000 IU Vitamin E (in capsules containing
soy oil, or use Uckele Liquid E); 2 to 4 ounces stabilized ground flax (to
replace omega 3 fatty acids); 1/2 tsp magnesium oxide; and for
vitamins/minerals, you can use one of the following on a temporary basis until you
can get your hay tested and find out what your horse really needs. The
following products are made without added iron, and no or very minimal
manganese, so will not exacerbate iron overload while you are getting things
sorted out. California Trace or California Trace Plus; California Trace - Nutritional Support for Horses or Uckele U-Balance Foundation (NOT U-Balance IR) http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/u-balance-foundation.html or Arizona Regional Mix http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-regional-mix
or
Colorado Regional Mix:
http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix Please
note that these balancers may or may not correct the deficiencies of your
horse's forage. All are truly excellent products, but they are a temporary
stop-gap while you are waiting for hay analysis. They are also not designed to
address the major minerals (magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus)
What
is really important in the diet is what you don't feed: no sweet feeds,
no bagged feeds that have more than 10% combined ESC plus starch (and should
also be below 4.5% starch); no carrots, apples, grain or grazing until
everything is diagnosed and sorted out.
For
good information about diet balancing, go here:
http://www.desertequinebalance.com And
for the best information, go here:
http://drkellon.com Trim
is balanced to the internal structures of the hoof, with a short toe and not
high heels, or low, under-run heels.
Exercise is as able: For the healthy, non-laminitic horse,
the more exercise the better, as it helps reduce insulin levels. For the
previously laminitic horse, no riding or turns/lunging/round-penning until at
least half of a new hoof growth cycle has occurred (6 to 12 months).
To
really help us to help you, it would be wonderful if you could fill out a case
history on your horse. To do that you'll need to join the Case History (CH) group:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory and then follow the instructions here: When you join, you will be emailed a copy of the CH form and
instructions for setting up a folder and uploading and organizing your
information.
Your hay analysis and lab work will go into your CH folder.
Your xrays and hoof pics go into the PHOTOS section of that CH group: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos
Short version of that tediously long post:
Fill
out a case history for your horse.
Read
the information about diet balancing on Desert Equine Balance.
Read
the overviews of Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here Please sign all of your posts with your name, your horse's name, the year/month that you joined, your location and the link to your case history once completed. That helps us answer any questions you have.Thanks, Sherry and Scarlet EC Primary Response PA 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scarlet/Scarlet%20Case%20History.doc
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: Question about Stabilized flax
ferne fedeli
Thanks Lavinia! I feel better now. -- Ferne Fedeli No. California Regional Members Database Coordinator - see who is near you Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Re: flax as a base, flavorings, beet pulp, should I change?
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 04:49 am, Laurie H wrote:
There has not been, until now, a difference made between flax ground fresh daily and stabilized flax. There has always been a distinction made between freshly ground and stabilized flax. If you grind yourself you use immediately or keep in the refrigerator for a few days. Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
|