Date   

Re: Proadd Ultimate question

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Deb

To Lorna's list I would add manganese proteinate and manganous sulfide.

Your hay has plenty of manganese.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR

Genevieve
 

Hi Lorna,

On what basis are you stating that Rose is cushing, in other words what are your seasonal reference values? Guelph has stated they do not have reference for the seasonal rise period. And Idexx has > 22.

I will try to take new hoof pictures over the week-end.

Awaiting answers to question 1 when possible.

Thanks,

--

Genevieve  March 2012

Hemmingford, Quebec

Rose Case HistoryPhoto Album


Re: Cushing / IR..?

Sherry Morse
 

Hello Heather and welcome to the list,
 
There is quite a steep learning curve here, but hang in there, read a little bit at a time, and it will all start to make sense.  We all had to have a bit of a paradigm shift about horse-keeping when we started but the pay-off in the health of your horse makes it all worthwhile.

The tried-and-true protocol for this group, as put forth by Dr. Kellon, is this:  Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim (DDT/E)

Diagnosis: The best way to get a diagnosis is to get a single, non-fasting blood pull in a quiet barn (don't trailer to the vet, as this can cause false increases in ACTH).  The horse should have hay in front of it for at least four hours before the blood pull, but no concentrates.  Schedule the vet visit for at least 4 hours after the first meal of the day if the horse isn't on hay 24/7.   Blood is pulled into serum separator tubes and purple-topped tubes; kept cool (but not frozen); then spun and separated as soon as possible.  Freeze the serum and plasma, and send on ice via overnight courier to Cornell Animal Health Laboratory.  Your vet may (and probably will) initially find this all a huge PITA,  but once she/he does it a couple of times it will be old hat.   Ask for: ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin.   Thyroid is not really necessary - most PPID and IR horses show secondary low thyroid levels, which come up to normal when the conditions and diets are normalized (primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in the horse)

More information here:
  DDT + E - Diagnosis


Diet: 

The basic dietary needs for a PPID and/or IR horse is essentially a low sugar/starch forage (ie hay, not pasture); if the hay is not tested, then best soak for 1 hour in cold water.  For the Temporary Emergency Diet, add 1 tbspn salt, 2,000 IU Vitamin E (in capsules containing soy oil, or use Uckele Liquid E); 2 to 4 ounces stabilized ground flax (to replace omega 3 fatty acids); 1/2 tsp magnesium oxide; and for vitamins/minerals, you can use one of the following on a temporary basis until you can get your hay tested and find out what your horse really needs.  The following products are made without added iron, and no or very minimal manganese, so will not exacerbate iron overload while you are getting things sorted out.

 California Trace or California Trace Plus;
 California Trace - Nutritional Support for Horses 

or Uckele U-Balance Foundation (NOT U-Balance IR)
http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/u-balance-foundation.html     

or Arizona Regional Mix
http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-regional-mix

or Colorado Regional Mix:
http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix

Please note that these balancers may or may not correct the deficiencies of your horse's forage. All are truly excellent products, but they are a temporary stop-gap while you are waiting for hay analysis. They are also not designed to address the major minerals (magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus)

What is really important in the diet is what you don't feed: no sweet feeds, no bagged feeds that have more than 10% combined ESC plus starch (and should also be below 4.5% starch); no carrots, apples, grain or grazing until everything is diagnosed and sorted out.
For good information about diet balancing, go here:

http://www.desertequinebalance.com

And for the best information, go here:

http://drkellon.com

Trim is balanced to the internal structures of the hoof, with a short toe and not high heels, or low, under-run heels.

Exercise is as able: For the healthy, non-laminitic horse, the more exercise the better, as it helps reduce insulin levels.  For the previously laminitic horse, no riding or turns/lunging/round-penning until at least half of a new hoof growth cycle has occurred (6 to 12 months).
 
To really help us to help you, it would be wonderful if you could fill out a case history on your horse.  To do that you'll need to join the Case History (CH) group:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory and then follow the instructions here:
 
When you join, you will be emailed a copy of the CH form and instructions for setting up a folder and uploading and organizing your information.
 
Your hay analysis and lab work will go into your CH folder.  Your xrays and hoof pics go into the PHOTOS section of that CH group:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos 


Short version of that tediously long post:

Fill out a case history for your horse.

Read the information about diet balancing

Read the overviews of Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here
   
Please sign all of your posts with your name, your horse's name, the year/month that you joined, your location and the link to your case history once completed. That helps us answer any questions you have.
 
Thanks,
Sherry and Scarlet

EC Primary Response
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scarlet/Scarlet%20Case%20History.doc



Cushing / IR..?

ladyofthewood3@...
 

I am new to this group and have some question and wondering how to proceed with my daughter's horse.  She is showing no "problematic" symptoms, but she does have a few appearance type symptoms and I am wondering how to proceed.  

Here are some of her symptoms......she grows an incredibly LONG (like 3") winter coat.  She begins to shed out with all the other horses.  Last year she did not quite fully shed out, but when I gave her a herbal digestive cleanse she completely shed out to a beautiful and compact / short  shiny coat.  This year she did not, although all the horses were really late shedding, but her coat is only compact in a few areas and quite dull.  It is not curly unless it gets wet, then it is.  She does not have noticeable heat cycles.   She is quite flabby and unfit.....but she is also not worked hard.  

I don't want to create a problem where it does not exist, but it might also be nice to start getting her some support before there are problems.  She has no issues with her hooves.  They are in great shape.  She is out full time so has access to grass all the time there is no snow on it, and she is fine.  She is 12ish years old and an Appy or Appy x.  Could this be another hormonal type condition with some shared symptoms..?  I have not had the vet out about this.  I wanted to get more information before I started down that route....and also knowing some vets are not 100% savvy on this subject.  


thank you,

Heather


Re: ADV: Question about Stabilized flax

Animal Crackers
 

What is the optimal way to store a 25# bag of Triple Crown Omega MAX to keep it as fresh as possible over a long period of time? Should we divide it up into freezer bags and store it in the freezer?

Linda and Thistle
Oregon
February 2016
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Linda%20and%20Thistle


Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Genevieve,


You said, "I was interpreting the results based on the following email from the Idexx technical support:"


I just wanted to backup what Lavinia has already said.

Rose is definitely Cushing's according to her test results. She is also IR.


Can you post some hoof pix ?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: Proadd Ultimate question

Lorna Cane
 


Hi Deborah,


I wouldn't want to feed the yellow-marked items if it were my horse:

Soy Protein Isolate, Flaxseed, Whey Protein Concentrate, Dried Whey, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, L-Threonine, L-Tryptophan, Yeast Culture, Vegetable Oil, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Copper Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Copper Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Selenium Yeast, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, d-Biotin, Ascorbic Acid, Active Dried Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product DehydratedNatural Flavors.


And 55% protein  seems high to me, but I haven't figured it out in grams .

Can you link us to a case history,to help volunteers advise you better,seeing the whole picture?


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: Proadd Ultimate question

Nancy C
 

Hi Deb

Have you checked ACTH?


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Proadd Ultimate question

Deborah Ide
 

My horse's equine dentist (who is a vet) was just here to float Tara's teeth. We got to talking about IR, nutrition, etc..He mentioned that Tara'stop line didn't look  quite as well as it should. That was something I noticed also  in the last week or two after she lost some weight because I cut her fed back a bit due to the regular  vet telling me that she should lose about 50 pounds or so back  in June. Equine dentist vet does a lot of investigating of all sorts of horse related issues and suggested she might not be getting enough protein. He recommended a product called Proadd Ultimate by Progressive Nutrition. It has low NSC. I would like to get some feedback on what the experts think about feeding this along with a hay (low protein of 7% or so) and the mineal mix balanced to it, just to give her more protein for muscle development. I know we could use whey powder but wondering if this would work well also.

Thanks,

Deborah

In Tennessee

November 2012


Re: Mare passed away have a few things to pass on if interested

Sharon Manning
 

The Sox for Horses (whinny warmers) have been spoken for.

The Stabul 1 is 15 bags. I will let in go for 10.00 per bag for the lot. Otherwise it will just go to ruin. I hope someone can use it. I am in Knoxville TN.

Sharon

Cushing/IR 05


Re: Mare passed away have a few things to pass on if interested

Sharon Manning
 

Yes she was amazing. I will be missing her for a very long time.

thanks

Sharon

Cushing/IR 05


Re: slaframine, herbs

Nancy C
 

Hi again Monti

Control of paddocks and pasture has been and is discussed at length on ECHorsekeeping. Folks have discussed the used of vinegar and slat, round up, flame throwers.

I would not replant for an IR horse.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/messages


Archives on slobbers.  Can also be caused by dental or mouth issues.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=slobbers



--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Question about Stabilized flax

Nancy C
 

Hi Monti

Not sure what you mean by "the issue with B Vitamins was accounted for", however, want to say as Lavinia did, that ECIR does not recommend B vitamins thiamine, niacin and riboflavin for IR horses.

I use up my 40-pound custom from Horsetech in their flax in less than three months - usually 6 weeks - without issue.

Members have used distillers grain when their horses were allergic to flax.  Some horses are allergic to yeast.

Here are some archived posts on stabilized flax

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=posterid%3A58231+%22stabilized+flax%22

If you have high calcium hay, do not get stabilized flax with added calcium.  Horsetech will do that for you. Uckele Equi-Omega does not have added calcium.

s far as I am aware, there are no concerns for using fresh ground or stabilized flax for IR horses. Some folks feed them whole.  Not sure the question of getting the omegas from whole has been answered. They do not need to be boiled.


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



slaframine, herbs

jakehorse10
 

Jake has the worst slobbers ever, what can I do!? I am in a boarding barn, he has his own run out pasture, very short (also stressed from drought and high humidity). Are there any 'safe' chemicals to kill the clover? What could be reseeded safely to replace it (so it does not just return in vengeance)? I have seen articles on planting various herbs, echinacea, mint, chamomile, calendula, fennel, dandelions or others? Is there a risk with too much of any these with an IR horse? I also have read that certain herb combinations may not be good/safe; is this a concern with any of these? I have read the files on herbs and have ordered some from Mountain Rose Herbs mentioned in one article.

Is there anything to feed the horse in the interim to help with slobbers? I don't know if it is as bad for him as me, but he literally has a constant flow. I do not have any other pasture to move him into.

Monti in Michigan

Jake 2010


Re: My mare was just diagnosed IR

Genevieve
 

Hi Lavinia,

Thanks for the speedy response. I was interpreting the results based on the following email from the Idexx technical support:

Significant variations in plasma ACTH concentration associated with the season have been reported. An endogenous ACTH measured between November and
July of >7.7 pmol/L (35 pg/mL) is consistent with Cushing's disease (PPID). Cases with early PPID may fail to demonstrate significant elevations in
resting ACTH concentrations during these months.  Re-testing resting ACTH levels during August and October, when test sensitivity is highest is
recommended.  


Between August and October, an endogenous ACTH concentration of > 22 pmol/L (100 pg/mL) is consistent with equine Cushing's disease.

I just wrote to Guelph directly to obtain reference values associated to the seasonal rise period.

Can you help me nail down question #1 about minimal exercice?

Thanks!

--

Genevieve  March 2012

Hemmingford, Quebec

Rose Case HistoryPhoto Album


Re: Question about Stabilized flax

jakehorse10
 

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 05:19 am, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 03:22 pm, jakehorse10 wrote:
Hi, I am now totally 100% confused! I was using HorseTech BioFlax Ultra as a base for my custom minerals; Dr. Kellon mentioned that this was not the best thing so I have been trying to switch. Is flax ok as a mineral base or is it just risky as it can get rancid or ???

The problem is the flax and risk of going rancid. Sterrett-Fog had many headaches with this when they were making their low S/S pellet and attempting to put the matching mineral mix in a flax base.  Individuals have had problems ranging from an obvious varnish odor in the mix to horses refusing to eat it after it had been open a while or they are getting close to the end of their order despite trying a range of flavorings.

Two years is a commonly claimed shelf life but this refers to plain flax in an unopened bag or pail stored without extremes of heat.  When minerals are added to the mix it could be as short as 3 months without added preservatives/antioxidants. (This is also the standard shelf life of feeds.)

If you are getting a small order you might be OK but this also depends on how old the flax was when it was used to make your mix.  Horses can detect off odors or tastes before we do but they also vary in how picky they are. As a rule of thumb, the more compromised the horse is, the pickier they tend to be.
--

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Owner 2001

Very helpful, thank you!!  So to summarize, please confirm if I am correct.

Using HorseTech BioFlax Ultra is fine with minerals mixed in if used within a short period of time (1 month for ex. would be best). Now it makes sense as I was buying a 25 lb custom mix which would usually be 'rejected' by Jake when it was near the bottom.  My custom mineral mix took into account the ingredients in this flax, so the issue with B vitamins was accounted for.

Nutra-Flax is also fine, but again as a base, all flax should ideally be used within a short time.

I am switching to a mix of distillers grain/yeast as a base for my minerals. This new mix will take into account ALL the minerals from the BioFlax Ultra and my balancing (which took into account that I was using BioFlax Ultra). I will feed Nutra-flax on the side for the added omegas, but I will have my diet rebalanced to take all these changes into account.

Are there any concerns with palatability, shelf life, or other, with distillers grain/yeast?

 Perhaps an expert could summarize the use of flax, distillers grain, yeast, etc. to post in the files section. My barn, for example, is convinced they should boil flax seeds, others believe in feeding raw. What is the differenced between milled, unmilled, stabilized, etc. and which should we be concerned about for our IR horses?

Thank you so much and sorry for the long post.

Monti in Michigan

Jake 2010


metabarol

Amy
 

In my search for a vet who will treat the seasonal rise I talked with a vet who suggested metabarol. Anyone have experience with this and would using it affect my balanced diet?  

My vet agreed to increase prescription dose of prascend to 1 1/2 mg but as soon as I put the dose back (I had had her on two without the vets support) she has become foot sore again. I have a call into Cornell to ask their protocol or recommendations on treating the seasonal rise. There just don't seem to be any vets here with much experience with this. I know this is a bold request but would Dr. Kellon or one of you others who are vets talk with my vet? Do you ever do that?

Does anyone have any other suggestions?

--

Amy and Kat

May 2016

Hammondsport, NY

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Kat

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=122 


Re: Lami help

Sherry Morse
 
Edited

Hello and welcome to the list,

There is quite a steep learning curve here, but hang in there, read a little bit at a time, and it will all start to make sense.  We all had to have a bit of a paradigm shift about horse-keeping when we started but the pay-off in the health of your horse makes it all worthwhile.
 
The tried-and-true protocol for this group, as put forth by Dr. Kellon, is this:  Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim (DDT/E)
Diagnosis: You currently have a diagnosis of Cushings (PPID); but do you know what the actual status of the PPID is? In other words, is the pergolide=Prascend dose adequate to control the Cushings?  Under-controlled PPID can often result in insulin resistance.  In addition, your boy may be insulin-resistant at baseline.  The best way to get a diagnosis is to get a single, non-fasting blood pull in a quiet barn (don't trailer to the vet, as this can cause false increases in ACTH).  The horse should have hay in front of it for at least four hours before the blood pull, but no concentrates.  Schedule the vet visit for at least 4 hours after the first meal of the day if the horse isn't on hay 24/7.   Blood is pulled into serum separator tubes and purple-topped tubes; kept cool (but not frozen); then spun and separated as soon as possible.  Freeze the serum and plasma, and send on ice via overnight courier to Cornell Animal Health Laboratory.  Your vet may (and probably will) initially find this all a huge PITA,  but once she/he does it a couple of times it will be old hat.   Ask for: ACTH, insulin, glucose, and leptin.   Thyroid is not really necessary - most PPID and IR horses show secondary low thyroid levels, which come up to normal when the conditions and diets are normalized (primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in the horse)
More information here:

  DDT + E - Diagnosis 



Diet:  The basic dietary needs for a PPID and/or IR horse is essentially a low sugar/starch forage (ie hay, not pasture); if the hay is not tested, then best soak for 1 hour in cold water.  For the Temporary Emergency Diet, add 1 tbspn salt, 2,000 IU Vitamin E (in capsules containing soy oil, or use Uckele Liquid E); 2 to 4 ounces stabilized ground flax (to replace omega 3 fatty acids); 1/2 tsp magnesium oxide; and for vitamins/minerals, you can use one of the following on a temporary basis until you can get your hay tested and find out what your horse really needs.  The following products are made without added iron, and no or very minimal manganese, so will not exacerbate iron overload while you are getting things sorted out.

 California Trace or California Trace Plus;
 California Trace - Nutritional Support for Horses 

or Uckele U-Balance Foundation (NOT U-Balance IR)
http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/u-balance-foundation.html    

or Arizona Regional Mix
http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-regional-mix


or Colorado Regional Mix:
http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix
Please note that these balancers may or may not correct the deficiencies of your horse's forage. All are truly excellent products, but they are a temporary stop-gap while you are waiting for hay analysis. They are also not designed to address the major minerals (magnesium, calcium, and phosphorus)
What is really important in the diet is what you don't feed: no sweet feeds, no bagged feeds that have more than 10% combined ESC plus starch (and should also be below 4.5% starch); no carrots, apples, grain or grazing until everything is diagnosed and sorted out.
For good information about diet balancing, go here:

http://www.desertequinebalance.com
And for the best information, go here:

http://drkellon.com
Trim is balanced to the internal structures of the hoof, with a short toe and not high heels, or low, under-run heels.
Exercise is as able: For the healthy, non-laminitic horse, the more exercise the better, as it helps reduce insulin levels.  For the previously laminitic horse, no riding or turns/lunging/round-penning until at least half of a new hoof growth cycle has occurred (6 to 12 months).
 
To really help us to help you, it would be wonderful if you could fill out a case history on your horse.  To do that you'll need to join the Case History (CH) group:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory and then follow the instructions here:

When you join, you will be emailed a copy of the CH form and instructions for setting up a folder and uploading and organizing your information.
 
Your hay analysis and lab work will go into your CH folder.  Your xrays and hoof pics go into the PHOTOS section of that CH group:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos 

Short version of that tediously long post:
Fill out a case history for your horse.
Read the information about diet balancing on Desert Equine Balance.
Read the overviews of Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here      
Please sign all of your posts with your name, your horse's name, the year/month that you joined, your location and the link to your case history once completed. That helps us answer any questions you have.
 
Thanks,
Sherry and Scarlet

EC Primary Response
PA 2014
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Scarlet/Scarlet%20Case%20History.doc





Re: Question about Stabilized flax

ferne fedeli
 

Thanks Lavinia!  I feel better now.


--

Ferne Fedeli

No. California

Regional Members Database Coordinator

 - see who is near you

Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.

Case History


Re: flax as a base, flavorings, beet pulp, should I change?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 04:49 am, Laurie H wrote:
There has not been, until now, a difference made between flax ground fresh daily and stabilized flax.

 There has always been a distinction made between freshly ground and stabilized flax.  If you grind yourself you use immediately or keep in the refrigerator for a few days.
--

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Owner 2001

79661 - 79680 of 277956