Date   

Re: IR/ Lymes

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi,

If you would please sign your posts with your name, year of joining and general location we can help track down the missing info. It will also let us give you better information in general and help with suggestions for sourcing things in your area.

Lyme can drive IR and/or push a borderline horse over the edge. It can also cause a miserable laminitis all by itself. How was your horse diagnosed with the Lyme and have you had any retesting done since she was treated to see if the treatment was effective? Your vet is correct that the development of IR, and its effects, will creep up over time. IR isn't a disease but a metabolic type and Icy's are are one of the breeds that are prone to it. It is a management issue that we have created with too much good food and too little exercise to balance it.

If she has just recently become "more herself" after you took her off the grass then it is likely the IR that is causing the problem. Severely restricting her total amount of food will backfire - she should be fed 1.5% - 2% of what her ideal bodyweight should be, per day. If the hay isn't tested, it should be soaked before feeding. Emergency diet would be the recommended go-to right now:

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

The spring/fall stamina and stumbling issues are classic for sub-clinical laminitis issues. Trim will also need to be addressed to make sure it is optimal. Encourage you to take and put up pix in the Photos sectio of the case history subgroup. Here's the link to info on how to get the best shots:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1632&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Ford is lame

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Fran,

Sorry to hear Ford is having a bump in his road.

The change from dry to wet can really be hard when it happens so quickly as the feet will absorb that moisture and tend to go a bit splat. If the trim isn't spot-on, that will contribute to an overall loosening of support within the hoof capsule. The added PPID  makes for a "perfect storm" scenario. It will be a bit of a learning curve this year as it's his first seasonal with a PPID diagnosis. Looks like you are chasing the rise a bit so may want to consider having a discussion with your vet about bumping the dose again to 1.5mg or even 2mg to get on top of it, then retesting after 3 weeks - which would put you at the height of the rise.

Pix when you have a chance. Boots and pads for comfort, diet tight and make sure pergolide dose is at the correct level to keep ACTH well within normal range.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Ford is lame

 

Oh, no!  I wonder if his seasonal rise is escaping the control of the pergolide.  If he were mine, I would start increasing the dose by .25 mg every couple of days (he is on a lowish dose, yes? 1 mg or so, since he only started the pergolide in August?).  Does he have any other symptoms that you can monitor, such as goopy eyes or a hard crest? Using the sheath swelling will help, too.  In a perfect world, one would test the ACTH every couple weeks until control is gained, but since it is such a moving target at the moment, I would go with symptoms (clinical signs), then test once it looks like the right dose has kicked in.

Tinker is the one that should be lame, though.  Geez!

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




IR/ Lymes

hansenshorses@...
 

This spring my mare (21 yr old Icelandic mare) came down with Lymes and was treated IV for 5 days and oral for 30. She became very sore on her front feet so they treated it as founder. They did blood work for metabolic disease and here is what they found.

Glucose 83 (54-118)

T4 1.0  (.5- 3.1)

Cortisol 4.4 (3.0-6.5)

ACTH 20 (9-35)

Insulin 36.2 (5-10.0)  HIGH

Leptin 32.55  (1-4)  HIGH

So she has high insulin and high Leptin so they diagnosed it as IR. I have taken her off pasture and lowered the amount of grass hay (10 lbs) and she only gets her grass balancer for vitamins and minerals.

She seems to be more herself where before she seemed depressed. Was that the Lymes or the IR is the question. I have had this mare for 10 yrs with no other health concerns.  She does not have a cresty neck but has pockets of fat.  She is an Icelandic. Many of them are more on the chubby side. I have resigned myself that she will never go out on pasture again and if so only short periods of time with a muzzle. 

For the last few years her stamina and stumbling always was worse in the spring and Fall.  I contributed that to her long hair coat and being warm and out of shape. My vet said IR doesn't just hit them but sneaks up on them as they age.

I also read that Lymes can put a horse over the top with full blown IR if they were close.

Once they have these high numbers (insulin and Leptin) will they always be that way? Could have just been the Lymes causing all of this and maybe she isn't insulin resistant?  The vets have said to me there are still so many unknowns in Lymes in horses.

I know I am doing this wrong but never found my case history info to put in numbers. 


Re: Help with trim please

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Madeleine,

I added a couple of mark-ups to Briora's album here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1632&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

The trim has really improved and there aren't any major, glaring problems. The bull nosed appearance has been almost completely resolved, there is some concavity starting to develop in the rears. You say she is sound and exercised under saddle so those are also positive things.

The tweaks I would suggest would be to tighten up the toe trims a bit more with a strong bevel/mustang roll. I added a sole shot where the yellow arrows are pointing to flared areas that need to be brought inward. Although I marked only the one foot as an example, all four have flaring in the lateral walls, with the toes tending to have slightly thicker, squared-off corners at about "10 and 2 o'clock". All four also have the medial heels slightly forward of the lateral heel (RH being the most obvious in the medial picture) and they may be slightly taller as well.

The composite picture of the front and hind foot is highlighting the deeper collateral grooves and some of the concavity that is starting in the hind foot (more bowl shaped) vs the shallower grooves and flatter sole of the front foot.

If the coffin bone was sitting that low and the soles were so thin that you could see the imprint of the coffin bone in them it is highly likely Briora would be quite lame, or at east very sensitive to touch on her soles, so she wouldn't be sound and able to exercise freely.

The best way to check on all of this would be to get lateral xrays of all four feet, if possible.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Hoof cinch

 


I saw 'hoof cinch(s)' on a foundered pony a carriage show. Sadly the pony was still lame but the owners thought it was fine and believed the hoof cinch was 'holding the wall' preventing rotation and pain. I was surprised the pony wasn't excused from the ring but it was driven by a grandpa and child and had the 'aww' factor. 
I did talk with the grandpa and he didn't understand the whole concept but believed what his farrier said, which was that "the 'cinch' tightened/squeezed the hoof wall therefore preventing damage".

The 'cinch' is a hose clamp that is screwed to the hoof on the mid lateral and medial side with the tightening screw in the front...placed a little below the hairline. There is another screw in the front to prevent the clamp from sliding up when the thing is tightened. Looks like a metal band-aid.
 I am confused how this works as it only goes part way around the hoof, so the ends would pull outward not inward. Then because the
 hoof is narrower at the top it all wants to move toward the top but is held by screws, none of which are small. All in all it makes no
 sense. 
Twadwis 
Nov '10
 


Re: does anyone feed orchard hay for IR

Nancy C
 

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 09:55 pm, LJ Friedman wrote:
can orchard and bermuda hay be fed with an  ok s/s profile ?? she boards so no sense in testing her hay. and said her horse coliced from bp, so that;s out,.

 You don't know the profile unless you test.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Jesse needs a pergolide increase

Nancy C
 

I'd pay less attention to the math and more on the symptoms. Regardless of Prascend, compound or combined dose delivery, it is either controlling his ACTH or not. How tight control you might need will depend on the individual.  Beau looses top line at 40-ish ACTH.

Testing is the best way to know (as you know) and doing so three weeks after reaching target dose is correct.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Ford is lame

Nancy C
 

Oh Fran.  I am sorry Ford is having a hard time.  Especially since he was doing so well.

I have used both Phyto Quench and jiaogulan at the same time, along with Movease. Getting the jherb in first 20 mins before eating helps.  Keep an eye on his gums, that they maintain their rosey pink hue. You may need to increase the amount of jherb.

Looking forward to seeing foot photos. Assuming he has pads in the boots.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance - Timeline Photos #FACTS

ECIR Integration <main@...>
 

Timeline Photos

By ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

The view of healthy feet has been replaced by pathological feet so !
pervasively that what is considered “normal” has less to do with being “optimal” than it does with being “common”. For more information go to ecirhorse.org, click on NO Laminitis Proceedings & Recordings and see: TRIM: THE ESSENTIAL MISSING INGREDIENT. Proceedings are free.


Re: does anyone feed orchard hay for IR

Lorna Cane
 

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 09:55 pm, LJ Friedman wrote:
are there .. any good carriers that dont require prep like bp  does

 Soy hull pellets.
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Ford is lame

 

Ford is very lame, For sure in both fronts, and perhaps in his back feet as well. He's IR and just recently diagnosed PPID (started pergolide 8/10). He has been doing great (I've been riding him) and his always-swollen sheath is the smallest I've seen it. The addition of the pergolide seemed to result in him getting quite perky (he even tried to run away with me the last time I rode him!). He does still have thin soles, but is making progress with concavity and overall hoof health. A little over a week ago he started getting sore. No heat in his feet, not bounding pulses. It has been very dry, and then we had a lot of rain and his feet suddenly started growing quickly (they had previously been growing slowly). I rasped his toes as far as I was comfortable (which wasn't much), pulled him off the track (which had started to grow a little bit of grass) and put him in boots. He started improving slightly. The trimmer came today. Ford had a hard time holding up his feet. She was only able to trim the fronts and took quite a bit off (necessary). She lightly nicked his sole when he jerked to try to put his foot down, and drew blood. This was in an area where the sole appears to be quite thin and the area that bled is soft. I'm treating him for abscess, but I honestly don't know what is going on. His diet is tight (EXCEPT that he did get a little grass after the rain. These symptoms did not start right away). He's on jiaoguin and Mov-Ease. I did a search to find out if it's ok to add Phytoquench along with the J herb and Mov-Ease, but have not been successful in my search (still on the groups.io learning curve). I'll try to get photos tomorrow, but wondering what I can do to help him. He is eating and drinking and I have made sure he has access to both without having to move much. Thank you in advance!
--
Fran in Texas

7-2005

Ford and Tinker

Ford Case History PDF: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fran%20and%20Ford%20-Tinker/Ford%20Case%20History.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Fran%20and%20Ford%20-Tinker

Ford Photos:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1214900120




does anyone feed orchard hay for IR

LJ Friedman
 

A small animal vet friend just had her horse diagnosed  ir just from vet looking at her,. no blood labs.. .. so she will now treat as ir( horse eats orch/berm hay and all the wrong other stuff..  grain,alfalfa pellets, cookies, apples, carrots, grass).   can orchard and bermuda hay be fed with an  ok s/s profile ?? she boards so no sense in testing her hay. and said her horse coliced from bp, so that;s out,. plus too much time prep for her,, are there .. any good carriers that dont require prep like bp  does,, where she can put in tc omega max flax, ca trace plus, 2 oz iod salt, 2000 vit e..  horse is arab 18,900#.. no cushings. diagnosed..     even with all these treats. no laminitis .. just. bad hocks,   steroids  injected today..   osphos if no improvement, in 2 weeks,,-    she will bake the flax treats we use. so that is a good thing. 
LJ Friedman San Diego Nov 2014


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse/Jesse%20Case%20History.doc


Re: Hay Analysis back

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Stephanie,

It's OK to feed. Iron a bit high but totally workable, s/s nice, protein on the higher side.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


ECIR Group Policy, Friday, 2 September 2016 #cal-notice

ECIR Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Invitation:
ECIR Group Policy

When:
Friday, 2 September 2016

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

*

Solicitation is against list policy. 

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld on the list or by close examination.

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member on list, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse.  ECIR approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.


Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting on the list is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.


If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to main+owner@ECIR.groups.io 

 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List

 


Hay Analysis back

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi All, 

I just got the 2nd cutting hay analysis back, and am hoping if someone could take a peek to confirm that it is appropriate for IR and PPID horses? I know that I will need to contact a balancer to get that going as well, but figured I should check first before I start feeding it. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stephanie%20and%20King/Hay%20Analysis/EQ096209.pdf

Thank you very much. 
--
Stephanie & King
October 2014
Oregon
Case History 


Re: Jesse needs a pergolide increase

LJ Friedman
 

thanks for the reply. I'm thinking of being a bit more aggressive and increasing by 2 mg instead of 1. Here are my thoughts and methods

Yesterday, I added .50mg prascend to 8.0 mg comp perg which equals 8.565 comp equivalent

( 1.0 mg prascend = 1.13 compounded perg so .50 mg increased the comp by .65mg  ( 1/2 of 1.13)

When I add /titrate an additional .50 mg prascend ( 1.0 mg total prascend) . to 8.0 mg comp capsule that equals 9.13  compounded perg.  ( petshealth doesmt make a 9.13 comp capsule) and I wouldnt want to give a 9.0 mg comp capsule strength.

When I add/titrate an addl .50 mg prascemd 1.5 mg total prascend to 8.0 mg comp capsule. that equals

9.70 comp equiv.. After 4 days on 9.70 equiv. I would have 10mg comp perg capsules on hand. And re-test the 10mg dose in 3 weeks

Thoughts on my plan are needed  thanks
--
LJ Friedman San Diego Nov 2014


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse/Jesse%20Case%20History.doc


Re: Is there a tie between insulin sensitivty and selenium deficiency and how do I go about increasing the selenium

Lorna Cane
 

>>  I will consider posting a case history in the future and am certainly open to new suggestions, but right now I am having a hard time finding any spare time to do it. 


Just a point here,June. New suggestions are what we're here for.

But the volunteers are at a bit of a disadvantage - ok ,a huge disadvantage- if they are unable to see the whole picture. It's way too difficult and time consuming for volunteers to go back and search for posts, in which info has been provided over time.

The advantage of a CH here is obvious. But not so obvious is the huge advantage it is to the horse owner.

It allows for a very detailed history of the horse's issues/vitals, available for reference for time immemorial. And it's not unheard of for something to jump off the page, as the details are being recorded,which an owner hadn't realized before as being part of the puzzle.

People find it's well worth the effort, even if it can be a groaner at the time.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: Hoof cinch

 

Lavinia, I am trying to track down a new farrier, one who can see Halo more often than once every 6 weeks. One of his clients said they used a hoof cinch on her horse and he has recovered nicely. I will search on the Hoof site for it. In the meantime, my mare's hoof wall grows out in about a week, and they bend and break and rip off. I do not feel comfortable doing anything with the hoof myself, no training whatsoever here! I am a newbie, only had horses for the last 13 years, and never had problems before like this! Is there a link to some sort of education that other members have done in order to feel comfortable rasping on their horse's feet?
--
Mary and Halo and Wellon

West Fargo, ND, USA

Joined spring 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Halo



Re: ppid

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sophie,

Nice job on the photos of James' foot.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1638


The toe is too long horizontally, the walls are flaring quite a bit esp. in the heels. The heels have migrated forward so James isn't able to bear weight properly and comfortably.

If you would like some mark-ups to illustrate and some suggestions on where the trim needs to go, just let me know. It would be helpful to to have a set of pix from all his feet if you would like mark-ups.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

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