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new hoof shots for reviw
Hi Lavina - thanks for all your help. I've worked on her toes, the trimmer did not want to take any more off - but I did it anyways. She will be back in over 2 weeks and Elsa is quite sore on left front. I can see a big difference in heel height between the feet....and remember that her left was more upright before this all happened, which we discussed that it happened as a foal and was not corrected. I seem to remember you thought the bony column was in pretty good alignment so I'm not sure bringing that one heel down is a good idea, not am I confident enough to do that. Have a look at the RF sole photo - interesting 4 dots....I wonder if that is the crack you could see in the x-rays. If you see anything that might be causing the soreness in left - that I might be able to fix please let me know. I've also updated her case history.....weight seems to have taken a dive in last 4 to 5 days.....treating for ulcers, fecal in and cut out the Phyto-quench today. Repeat of the blood draw happening tomorrow.
-- Sharon P, Elsa April 2016 Courtenay, BC Canada Elsa, Case History, Photo Album
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Re: OK to feed oats with normal IR but elevated ACTH?
Hi Laura, The links in your signature are not clickable. LeeAnne sent you clickable links this morning,to exchange for the ones presently in your signature.You must have missed her message. Laura and Pabatsa in California Feb 2012
Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
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Re: OK to feed oats with normal IR but elevated ACTH?
He does need a boost to get going in this warm weather, and he is 19-years old. (Would the elevated ACTH have influence over exercise intolerance?) My vet didn't want to raise his Pergolide from 3.5 mgs compounded, and Dr. Schonbacher at Cornell didn't seem to think it was that bad. We are giving him Adequan injections and he seems happy/pain free. He waltzes across the arena to the Freestyle Music my trainer is doing. I'm still recovering from a near fatal riding accident with a TBI Easter weekend, so his diet hasn't been overhauled for some time. I will have one of the stable hands core the hay for Equi-Analytical. It's probably the best thing to do so we can see just where he's at with minerals, protein, etc. Can I email you for help when the results are in?
-- Laura and Pabatsa in California Feb 2012 Case History Pabatsa's Photos
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Re: TC 30% Analysis Follow Up
Sorry...too many balls in the air. Just re-read what I said. The TC 30 may be too high for very sensitive horses. Already spoke about the iron. And let me say again..... In the main, I support Triple Crown. Just want to give folks a place to
check for answers if things aren't going the way they had hoped.
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Re: TC 30% Analysis Follow Up
No. I am saying members have tested TC products and found them to be sometime significantly higher in starch than listed on the web site averages. When they removed this they saw improvement. To get back to the original thread: a member who was not feeding hay and was worried about iron content. Suggested she remove the TC 30 and TC Senior both of which add complexed iron and ferrous sulfate to lower intake of iron, and go strictly with ODTB Cubes. Like I also said, I like TC in general. Much more than many other bagged feeds out there.
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Re: TC 30% Analysis Follow Up
Hi Nancy, I would appreciate clarification... are you saying TC 30% is not approved by the ECIR Board/Dr. Kellon for IR horses at 1#? Thank you, Kathy Brinkerhoff SE/WI 10/12
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Re: TC 30% Analysis Follow Up
I know you probably know this Kathy but for others following... All Triple Crown Feeds have fixed ingredient formulas, values reflect an average analysis of multiple feed samples. When queried, it has never been clear how often this has been updated. We have had a few members who have test TC Lite especially and found the starch much higher. Some discussion in the archives I believe. The TC 30 would be way too high for an IR horse. In the main, I support Triple Crown. Just want to give folks a place to check for answers if things aren't going the way they had hoped.
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Re: Persistent elevated Insulin Level
Connie Proceviat
Hi Dr. Kellon and All, I was interested in your comment about Icelandics being difficult cases. Since i started feeding my IR gelding with the protocols of this group, Falki's insulin has continued to decrease but still high risk of laminitis category. Last time tested was last fall. I am curious if you have any comments on why they are difficult cases and further management tips worth incorporating. I think our biggest problem is not enough exercise on a regular basis.
Kindest Regards, Connie & Falki Manitoba Canada August 2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Connie%20and%20Falki
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Pergolide labs
Flame has been on his goal dose of 2mg compounded pergolide for 4 weeks now. Which Cornell labs do I want to do? ACTH, glucose, insulin & thyroid panel (cut dose in half when pergolide was started & needs checked). Anything else? Also just to double check, I want to feed morning hay but not grain & then draw labs 4 hours after? Same with the thyroid dose? Thanks in advance! NV Oct 2013
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TC 30% Analysis Follow Up
Hi All, I called and spoke with Jessica at Triple Crown Feeds this morning. TC is currently in the process of updating their site. The 3% Protein for TC 30% was a typo and has been corrected to 30%. Iodine is not on the Guaranteed Analysis, but she said it runs around 4.3 ppm or 2.0 mg as was reported on my "old" analysis. I asked about the ESC + Starch and was directed to the NSC button on the right hand side of the page. Products are listed in NSC and ESC + Starch and if you read at the bottom of the page TC describes (as do other feed producers) that batches/lots can vary somewhat from analysis to analysis. http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/30-ration-balancer/ Kathy Brinkerhoff SE/WI 10/12
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Re: Persistent elevated Insulin Level
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Paule, Dr. Kellon has addressed many of your questions so hope that information is helpful To be any more specific, we need to have a case history for your boy. If you have already filled one out then providing the link is really helpful If not, please do so here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Case-Histories%3A-What-You-Need-to-Know Adding a photo album to the PHOTOS section of the case history sub-group would provide more info on any possible trim issues that are contributing to the situation. Including any available xrays would be extremely helpful as well. Here's the link to the info for photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions We ask that you sign your posts with your name, general location and year of joining. You can make an automatic signature here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/How-to-Copy-and-Save-your-ECIR-Signature -- Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge Jan 05, RI EC Support Team
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Re: anyone feeding stabul1 to IR ponies?
atancredi2000
I have used Stabul 1 for my pony as a carrier for the supplements since it was introduced on this list a few years ago. The remainder of her diet is the Ontario Dehy Timothy Cubes that are soaked due to chewing issues. She likes both and has maintained a good weight. Anne in CT Sassy 2010 Slapshot 2003 (at the Bridge)
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Our Members Rock
LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
Just want to say how impressed I am with the member's efforts with their case histories. Recently (and over the years too) several members have spent much time and brain power getting their case histories properly filled out and/or transferred to the new (2015) form. The form can be daunting but filling it out can be educational for members. Every bit of information, even if it seems pointless or redundant. is important: It is the detailed record of changes in exercise, turnout, food, medication, blood work and IR calculator results that, over time, reveal patterns. These patterns show what works and what doesn't, and make possible the suggestions that effectivley help our horses. Individual case histories help the individual horse but as a group,also provide the data used to research and improve the health and well being of all PPID/IR horses. So to be clear, all members should know that their efforts with their case histories are seriously appreciated by the ECIR. With your data we have, and will continue to, find better ways to help all horses with IR and PPID. -- - LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link does't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com) ECIR Archivist 03/2004 Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? View the Database Stats
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Re: OK to feed oats with normal IR but elevated ACTH?
The only reason to consider post workout oats is if the horse is showing poor exercise tolerance. Just being back in work is not enough reason. Oats won't help build muscle any more than safer feeds but you do need to make sure his protein intake is adequate. Otherwise, exercise is the best muscle builder. If he's showing any stiffness or pain along with slow muscle development consider giving 10 grams of L-leucine in 2 oz of corn syrup after exercise.
-- Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001
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Re: Persistent elevated Insulin Level
It's very difficult to sort out causative factors when you have ongoing laminitis pain. Metformin can help with this if you get a dramatic lowering of insulin in the early stages of therapy. Did you see that with your horse? Did it change the hoof pain? Uncontrolled PPID/ACTH can certainly contribute to insulin elevations. It is always difficult to decide whether to treat when ACTH is borderline. In a situation like this where insulin is up and hoof pain ongoing you could discuss the possibility of trial of pergolide to see if it improves the horse. Other factors that we know about which could raise insulin include iron overload, chronic disease/infection, possibly underfeeding, possibly chronic pain. We have a lot more to learn on this front. One of the ways insulin likely contributes to hoof pain is via elevated levels of the vasoconstrictor endothelin-1, well documented in both acute and chronic laminitis. Chronic NSAID use contributes to this by blocking compensatory increases in endothelial nitric oxide. If you haven't done it already, a trial of Jiaogulan is well worth considering to counteract this - and stopping NSAIDs if you are using any. Non-insulin related factors in hoof pain can include: - failure to achieve a realigning trim or inability to do so because of severe bony rotation - osteomyelitis - pressure and inflammation from unresolved collections of blood/serum/pus - physical damage to vasculature Extended release metformin are human products formulated for once daily use. Blood levels peak in about 7 hours instead of 2 to 3. They are indicated for people who have GI side effects from immediate release metformin and do not have superior effects on IR per se. As far as I know, all work in horses with metformin has been with the regular immediate release form. Since horses metabolize metformin very similarly to humans there is not likely to be any benefit to using an extended release form at least in terms of IR control. Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001
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Re: OK to feed oats with normal IR but elevated ACTH?
LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
Here are Laura's Links: Laura and Pabatsa in California Feb 2012 -- - LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link does't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com) ECIR Archivist 03/2004 Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? View the Database Stats
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ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance - Timeline Photos
#FACTS
ECIR Integration <main@...>
Timeline PhotosBy ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin ResistanceFor details on creating a balanced diet for your equine, see the proceedings from NO Laminitis! 2015: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/conference-proceedings-recordings/2015-no-laminitis-conference-proceedings/2015-no-laminitis-outline-downloads. Click on FORAGE ANALYSIS: HOW AND WHY by Kathleen M. Gustafson, PhD.
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Re: Iron excess in diet
Mimi Costley
Thanks Dr. Kellon.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Mimi and Scarlet Feb 2016 northern VA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mimi%20and%20Scarlet --------------------------------------------
On Mon, 9/19/16, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
Subject: Re: [ECIR] Iron excess in diet To: main@ECIR.groups.io Date: Monday, September 19, 2016, 7:16 AM If manganese not needed, feeding NuZu and ODTBC, yes you can just balance to the hay and not worry about the rest of the diet. -- Eleanor in PAwww.drkellon.comEC Owner 2001
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Re: Iron excess in diet
If manganese not needed, feeding NuZu and ODTBC, yes you can just balance to the hay and not worry about the rest of the diet.
-- Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001
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OK to feed oats with normal IR but elevated ACTH?
Pabatsa hasn't been shown dressage since the end of the show year, Sept/2014. Because of his moderate-heavy work schedule of 30-40 minutes of sweaty trot/canter he was fed 1 lb. of Winner's Choice whole oats with 1 lb. dry weight r/s/r beet pulp following his work. We only took him to one show in 2015 due to my health.
This year my trainer is showing him the end of October so we have him back on the 30-40 minutes schedule of moderate+ workout. We want to build muscle on him since he's been off work since May (trainer had a baby). Recent August Cornell results came back that his ACTH is elevated at 45. His Insulin was 9.74 and Glucose 86 which I believe is not IR. Is it safe to feed oats during this seasonal rise with an elevated ACTH? (Since March, the groom has been feeding him at 6:30 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. A.M. he gets 1 lb, r/s/r bp with 3 tbsp Iodized salt/Horsetech Custom Minerals/1/4 cup dried peas. P.M. he's fed another 1 lb. bp with 1/2 cup Omega Horseshine.) Laura and Pabatsa in California Feb 2012 Case History Pabatsa's Photos
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