Date   

Re: Levi Hay Analysis

Maggie
 

Great!  Did you want Lavinia to do markups on the hoof pics?  If so, why don't you start a new thread with something to that effect in the subject line so it will catch her attention.  I know she's up to her eyeballs much of the time, but specifically asking for markups will help get you in line.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response


Re: First Test Results - ACTH Seasonal Rise Range?

Maggie
 

Hi Bonnie,

What your test results tell you is that Mouse is definitely IR and may be early PPID.  You tested right at the height of the seasonal rise (late September/early October).  Here's the Liphook graft:  http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Seasonal-Changes-in-ACTH-Secretion2.pdf  Make sure you go all the way to the bottom graft, the more recent work.  The cutoff's are a bit higher than the earlier work.  And here's Dr Kellon's recent post on Liphook's ceiling:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/202124   And here is what Cornell states in their test interpretation for ACTH: "Precautions for ACTH: Seasonal elevation of ACTH levels occurs from approximately mid-August to mid-October in approximately the northern 2/3 of North America. Samples taken during this time period may have up to 3 times reference levels of ACTH in normal horses. Horses with PPID tend to have even higher ACTH concentrations in this time period. Equine plasma concentrations of ACTH are affected by stress, exercise, and some drugs."

Cornell's normal reference range is 9-35, 3 times the normal reference range is 27-105.  I think it's what ever you are comfortable with, either a trial of pergolide or waiting and testing again in March when all horses should be done with the rise.  Would also retest at the start of the rise next year and years to come so as to catch early the extended and exaggerated rise that PPID horses experience.

If Mouse's laminitis from January were unexplained, I would probably lean towards a pergolide trial, but there is certainly a good explanation considering the sweet feed, weight gain and steroids.  The little bit of grass he had may have increased his insulin some, but it would not have effected the leptin.  The leptin of 13.25 helps to confirm the IR diagnosis.  Next time you test you will be thinking, LOL.  Just chalk it up to lesson learned.  And that lesson is that Mouse probably should not be having that little bit of grass.  Keep up the exercise!  That's the best IR buster there is!!  Also may be helpful to start a journal on Mouse to document the more subtle signs of PPID..  Read this post:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/111558 

I didn't see that you are mineral balancing your hay.  Did I miss something in your CH?  Also, you could replace the Remission with magnesium oxide for a LOT less $!

Encasulated pergolide from a reputable compounding pharmacy, ordered 30 days at a time and stored properly is as effective and a lot more cost effective than the brand name Prascend.  Maybe accepting total responsibility for the drug would help you vet to agree to it.  More information in the Pergolide 101 file here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/3%20Cushings%20Disease%20-%20PPID/Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/Pergolide/Pergolide%20101.pdf 

I think it's pretty normal for horses in this area to start exhibiting their winter coats in September.  Both of mine start to loose their summer coats in August but their winter coats are just starting to look thicker and a little fluffy now--of course, just in time for this heat wave we are having this week. :(

Hope that helps!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response


Re: Levi Hay Analysis

 

Thanks Maggie. I have updated the Case History for Levi and also retook the pictures of hooves/body condition and uploaded with the proper naming convention. 

Also Dr. Kellon is working on my Diet Balancing.


Thank-you so much for your help!


--
Wendi    2016-9-9

Grand Rapids, MI

Levi Case History

Levi Photos Link


Re: Low Sugar/Starch Hay Sources Sonoma County CA?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Karen,


You're interested in the ESC and Starch numbers, not WSC. Sorry I can't help out. Just wanted to clarify the numbers you need to know.


We ask everyone to sign their posts with name,location,date of joining and Case History link.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: Low Sugar/Starch Hay Sources Sonoma County CA?

karen sherrill
 

Hi, not sure how to post but wondering if any have wsc below 10.  Thank you, Karen and Winston 21 year old IR Morgan.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 17, 2016, at 9:18 PM, Robyn Tucker <venturesv@...> wrote:

HI Gail,

Whichever works for you and the group, works for me. I have three recent hay analysis that look good from Rivertown and Frizells: Meadow from Rivertown and Orchard and Timothy from Frizzell's. I selected the Orchard from Frizzell's, but have not yet purchased. I just got the test results back last Friday. If I can post them somewhere, would be happy to do so.
--
Robyn & Toons 

North Bay, CA

April 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robyn%20and%20Toons




Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Lorna Cane
 

Try this:

https://www.cogentoa.com/article/10.1080/23311932.2016.1193925.pdf


I Googled pectin soy hulls beet pulp horses.

There are many sites. I don't go to the feed company sites, but look for something unbiased. A feed company site can be valuable if it provides links to substantiate its points. 

There's nothing sexy about beet pulp/soy hull pellets, good-quality hay, with added minerals balanced to the hay.

But our horses thrive when this approach is used.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



First Test Results - ACTH Seasonal Rise Range?

 

I finally got my horse tested for IR and PPID. Mouse's case history is update with the results. His ACTH test result was 68.5 pg/mL. Insulin level was 72.1 pg/mL.

** My first question is what is the "normal" range for ACTH during the seasonal rise, according to Cornell? What is Dr. Kellons opinion on acceptable levels during seasonal rise?His test result was 68.5 pg/mL.

The vet who drew the blood finally called and told me he is in the "gray area" and doesn't need pergolide at this point. This is far to vague for me and I believe he possibly/probably should be started on pergolide. She also pooh-poohed compounded pergolide. I am trying to reach the vet who owns the clinic and is the doctor that has been treating my horse except for this single blood draw. 

Mouse was diagnosed with laminitis on Jan 22nd, 2016. Later in the year my regular vet (head vet) also recommended testing for IR and PPID. Yes I procrastinated! I dealt with hay, diet, trim, exercise and avoided those tests. My trimmer provided the push to get the testing done. 

I did screw up his feeding the evening/morning of his blood draw. I did not insure that he wouldn't run out of hay during the early AM. I hung his doubled 1" hay bags at 10 PM. At 5:30 AM the next morning the bags have been empty for how long? Let horse out with muzzle on scant grass area for 30 minutes then fed his OTBD cubes with flax/salt/E around 6:00 AM.Vet shows up at 9:00 AM to draw blood.

I just wasn't thinking! Grass? Out of hay? Did I cause the test results to be higher? Obviously I will be testing again, should this be in Jan?

** Looking at his ACTH and Insulin levels should this horse be started on pergolide? Anything published by Cornell or Liphook to support this that I can send to my vet.


His energy level is good (sometimes waay to good). His coat thru the spring/summer has been the finest he has ever had, short and glossy. He began growing his winter coat in Sept., pretty typical for him. He has always had a longer pony type coat and I have always clipped him twice per fall/winter just to make life easier for me. He is ridden on hilly wooded trails 5-6 times per week, 5-12 miles per ride, walk/trot and some canter. He is barefoot since laminitis and he and I are learning to cope with easy boots. 

Please help with ACTH questions above.


--
- Bonnie 07-2016

Charles County, Maryland

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Patty
 


from what I've read, I think it's the calcium and pectin in beet pulp that's supposed to be beneficial for ulcer prone horses.  Soy hulls may be the same in that regard  - I don't know.  Just not something I can look into at this point my brain is already on overload! And soy hull pellets is what I was supposed to ask the feed store if they had and how much $. I doubt they do at the store I was at yesterday.

Another thing I recently read about beet pulp is its a "fast digesting" feed (probably not terming that correctly).  So it feeds the good bacteria that feeds on fast digesting feed opposed to hay that I think is slow digesting and then slow digesting bacteria get fed from hay. So good to have both.  Not sure where I read that, but I'm pretty sure not just from a discussion group. 

 Patty 
Sept 2016
Kernersville NC



Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Patty
 

Lorna, that is good to know about hulls vs meal or soybeans!  

I've never heard of beet pulp causing ulcers, but it's "supposed" to be beneficial to help prevent ulcers. Not sure if what I've read is scientific proof/research or not because I've read so many articles about it.  


Sorry to to be getting OT.  


- Patty 
Sept 2016
Kernersville NC


Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Lorna Cane
 

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 05:14 am, Patty wrote:
Also, some people say their horses are sensitive to "soy" so I don't if different than hulls or not

For others following along, the 'people  referenced are talking about  soybeans or soymeal. They are correct. Some horses do not do well on soybeans or soybean meal.

Soy hulls do not have the same properties as the above, and do not cause problems.......that I have seen reported.

A Google search will turn up lots of science-based data wrt the topic.
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Lorna Cane
 

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 06:48 pm, Patty wrote:
 And I really don't know what to believe with what I read about beet pulp  and ulcers.  

Patty, if your sources with reference to beet pulp and ulcers are science-based you should be able to believe them,I would think.

There is a lot of misinformation out there, as we all know ,  and much of it comes from people telling their own stories about conclusions they have drawn from their own experiences.

The problem is that we frequently don't know the details. Details make all the difference. If we are able to start digging we often find that there was something else going on which was the cause, and not the, in this case, beet pulp at all.

That's one of the reasons we are so adamant here about being presented with the details for any given horse/situation.

We can, and do, learn a lot from each other's experiences, as long as cause/effect can be verified.

I haven't been able to find a reliable source pointing to beet pulp causing ulcers. Maybe someone else has.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Patty
 

Thank you Lorna and Nacey for some clarification on soy hull pellets. What about GMO/non GMO?  Also, some people say their horses are sensitive to "soy" so I don't if different than hulls or not. I would still need to know if they are beneficial for ulcer prone horses.

So, at least for now, I'll stick to beet pulp. I got my questions answered regarding soaking and I think I have a system now for r/s/r.

thank you so much!!!!


- Patty 
Sept 2016
Kernersville NC


Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Lorna Cane
 

For those reading along, we do not recommend feeding soy here.

Soy hull pellets are pellets made from soy hulls, not from soybeans. Makes all the difference.

Their profile is virtually the same as that of beet pulp.The equi-analytical site has the profiles for both.

If you're comfortable feeding beet pulp,by all means , continue feeding beet pulp.

It's just good to know, especially for those who find rinsing/soaking a tad tedious, that there is a viable alternative.

Soy hull pellets just need to be wetted down,or made into mush if your ponies have no teeth. No rinsing,soaking,rinsing.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf



Re: Low Sugar/Starch Hay Sources Sonoma County CA?

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 09:07 am, Gail Russell wrote:
 Is there a way to post it into a database so all can use it?

Hi Gail and the others in this thread,

This is so nice of you to consider others in your area.  You should upload them to your case history's Hay Analysis folders.   So that other members who might be searching for local hay can find the analysis, the Regional Member's Database has been edited to now include "Hay Analysis Reports of some locally hays".  You can either make an entry or edit a previous entry in the Regional Member's Database .  Then local members looking for local hay analysis can then contact you for your case history link or an emailed copy. 

Our members rock. Thanks for taking the time to help others by sharing your information.  

--

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link does't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)

ECIR Archivist March,2004

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats
Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials


Re: Low Sugar/Starch Hay Sources Sonoma County CA?

 

Since there is no other input from the moderators, I will post mine in a photo album.  Can put yours and Cass' in as well, I suppose.  I think that might work.  Will do the first one tomorrow to see if it works.


Re: Low Sugar/Starch Hay Sources Sonoma County CA?

 

HI Gail,

Whichever works for you and the group, works for me. I have three recent hay analysis that look good from Rivertown and Frizells: Meadow from Rivertown and Orchard and Timothy from Frizzell's. I selected the Orchard from Frizzell's, but have not yet purchased. I just got the test results back last Friday. If I can post them somewhere, would be happy to do so.
--
Robyn & Toons 

North Bay, CA

April 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robyn%20and%20Toons




Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Nancy C
 

Glad BP is working for you!

Just a quick comment that soy hulls do not have what I think you may mean about soy controversy.  They do not have the phytoestrogen issues that come with soy meal.

Let me know if I am missing your meaning.


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: E3Live supplementing

Nancy C
 

Hi Lindy

We use spirulina a lot here for skin issues. E3Live has been discussed before.  Nothing magical about it.  Try this link.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/131537

Increasing sole depth is really enhanced by getting the trim just right.  IME, adding supps in will not overcome or change this.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



E3Live supplementing

 

Has anyone ever tried supplementing with E3Live or E3AFA for horses? It's an organic blue green algae w/crystalloid Electrolyte Sea Minerals in a flake form from Klamath Algae Products in Placerville CA. They say it is very beneficial at helping to rebuild damaged hooves, improve sole depth, abscesses, lameness etc., and the testimonials from users, farriers & vets are very positive. I'm sure these are hand picked testimonials, but still the data sheet gives a list of nutrient composition per 1 gr. It looks interesting. I am balancing minerals in my low sugar hay as recommended but would like to try this supplement to help with increasing my horse's soles which are on the thin side of normal. My horse is I.R. And recovering from a laminitis / founder episode 10 1/2 months ago. He is doing great with 0 rotation now and is sound. We had our first ride last week. Feedback is appreciated.

Thanks,
Lindy & Kona


--
Lindy Berkowitz
E: lindylou51@...
C: 250.203.0068


Re: How long to soak beet pulp after rinsing?

Patty
 

There is a lot of controversy about soy.  And especially for horses with ulcers or prone to ulcers, so I feel better with beet pulp.  I don't know how soy hull pellets compare to beet pulp, for what beet pulp is supposed to help for ulcers.  And I really don't know what to believe with what I read about beet pulp  and ulcers.  But I'm pretty sure beet pulp doesn't bother my horse in any way so I don't want to change that. :-)

- Patty 
Sept 2016
Kernersville NC



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