Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Hi Shannon,

Really need a completed case history for Majik to answer you the best but first question is why do you need a "bagged feed" at all?

Recommendation is to have ESC+starch 10% or less, with starch fraction of less than 3-4%.

We have one analysis for Safe Choice in the files: starch 16.4% + ESC 6.4%. That would be enough to blow the feet off many IR horses...
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Hi Patty,

The photos don't make it look worse, they just show what is actually there, from many angles - they are neutral. When you are with the actual horse, you are influenced by everything that is going on and you are making various assumptions that you aren't even necessarily aware that you are making. Happens to everyone. We specify taking pix from specific angles so as to minimize the "subjective" factor and to provide a consistent framework for assessing the situation over time.

Flared wall cannot provide support because its connections to the underlying structures are already compromised. Asking it to play a support role only perpetuates the damage. Most horses will have "good hoof growing in" if you look at the area under the coronary ban. The question is, does it maintain that integrity all the way down to the ground? If not, is there a noticeable angle change and has that "spot" gradually moved lower on the hoof or does it appear to be remaining in relatively the same place over time? If it is remaining in the same place then there are factors at work that aren't optimal and unresolved trim problems are usually a key part.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Nappi, George, Peanut over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1873

One of the major feed companies in the UK has just reformulated their pelleted balancer products, and whilst they still aren't as good as the forage balancer type products, they are getting closer to the mark.

I emailed them about the products, to see if they could make a formulation suitable for IR/Cushings horses that was less than 10% sugar and starch (they currently come in at 14%). I have included the entire conversation below, but the gist is, they say, their testing shows that it is total amount of sugar and starch in a feed that causes the insulin response, not percentage and have asked for scientific evidence to show that it is percentage. I will of course ask them for their peer reviewed paper showing that it is total amount.

Does the group have anything that I could forward to the company? It would be amazing to get these people on board because their feeds are available in every feed store in the country.

Good Morning Vikki,
 
In our experience and through our own research, it's the total starch and sugar in the meal that seems to drive the glucose and insulin response. Although we haven't directly measured the glucose and insulin response to a 500 gram meal of our balancer I would be surprised if it produced a significant response. Although if you have any scientific evidence the percentage of NSC is the driving factor we would be very open to discuss this with our Director of Science.
 
Thank you for your feedback we always like to stay open to challenge and new ideas.
 
Best Wishes, Gina
 

I see a difference even with how the angle is when phone is on ground too - just by holding phone differently. I tried something different today, but it didn't work. I can see just looking at him today some "flare," but farrier can't take any more off. He was only able to put 2 nails on each side. However, I think photos make it look worse than they are. 

My farrier also mentioned taking off so much wall can cause other problems because lack of support.  He has good hoof growing in, so I can't say my vet and farrier have been wrong all these months.  

Timeline Photos

It is extremely rare to find forage that meets the minimum recommended daily allowance (RDA) for zinc and copper. In fact, the chances of finding hay with enough copper to meet the National Research Council’s RDA is 5%, and for zinc, only 2%. Simply put, most forages are deficient for these two important trace minerals, providing only half of the daily requirement for zinc and slightly more for copper. These data (170 samples) were collected from the same geographic region by the same experienced person, over the course of 5 years. Data from online databases often contain extreme outliers and contaminants, making the results less reliable.

The graph clearly shows a “frank” mineral deficiency, meaning that the lowest possible RDA is not met. Many nutritionists and feed companies aim for two times the minimum RDA. Therefore, a product that provides at least 100 milligrams of copper and 300 milligrams of zinc would be a reasonable place to start. It is always better to know the nutrient and mineral profile of your forage through an analysis. If you can’t analyze your forage, you can safely assume that zinc and copper are likely deficient and can then take the necessary steps to correct it.

Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1873

New pix of Majik's feet - before and after trim and shoeing.  I did the best I could during thunderstorms!  Shoes are aluminum with a lifted heel and slight rocker toe, and an open back to allow her heels to grow down.  I have been using Durasol a bit too much - her feet and frogs were hard as rocks!  There wasn't much toe that could be taken off as you will see.  The shoes should help with breakover.  She came in sound and walked out sound.  Mark-ups are appreciated.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1873
--
Thank you and God Bless!

Shannon and Majik (IR)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1873

Thank you Dr. Kellon!

Dawn & Roma

Delaware

August 2011

Now that's a picture.

And I can identify well!

I just asked because the view from the floor, and from standing up, or even leaning down are all different. I've been taught to go with the view from close to floor level.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

ECIR Group Policy

When:
Wednesday, 2 November 2016

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

*

Solicitation is against list policy. 

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld on the list or by close examination.

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member on list, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse.  ECIR approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.

Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting on the list is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List

I was pretty much crawling around on the floor at my vet's, but I can check more closely tomorrow. My vet was watching me and the angle of phone. 

- Patty 

Both my vet and farrier agree that he does not have flares like the photos show.

 Just wondering,Patty........do you/they get down and look from the same angle the camera does when it's on the ground, or at least pretty close?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

I've posted a BUNCH of new photos for Rated G.  He was trimmed and reset today.  I'm very confused.  When I look at his feet, they look good.  When I take photos, they look like they have flares.  Both my vet and farrier agree that he does not have flares like the photos show.  I've posted multiple photos of each foot to show the differences I see.  Different angles look different. I've also posted views that are not asked for since I think they look different at different angles.  I can delete some if I need to. 

I'm going to keep him in shoes since I think it's best for him.  All pads are off now. 

Still haven't gotten mark ups from last photos, but I think photos make his feet look worse than they were. No need for mark ups now.  And I still have unanswered questions about sinking and under run heels. 

Thank you!

Hi, I'm new to this page and also pretty new to owning a horse  I recently adopted a retired roping horse that has a few issues. He has some arthritis and the beginning of some  navicular in one of his hooves. I had some blood work done but the Dr.didnt seem to concerned but I just want to ask for help from others that have  experience. I'm wanting to put him on a joint supplement but not sure what. In the blood work his insulin level was 8.92  the normal levels are between 4-8 so I see it was a little elevated and his T4 was 3.1 normal levels 0.9-2.8. But his glucose was 63 normal levels at 64-105. So I'm not sure if putting him on a glucosamine is right.  I really could use some advice. Thank you Ruby

Hi Amy,

Welcome. Just want to let you know a couple of things specific to your location.

Wallace Grain in Sheridan, IN, carries Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes (which you will read about a lot here - usually referred to as ODTBC). If you buy ten bags or more at a time, they will deliver to you free. I've been doing this for several years, live near Mooresville, and they have been very reliable. There is a Tractor Supply store in Greenfield that supposedly carries Nuzu Stabul 1. They have not had any on hand when I have called, and have not responded to my requests to call me when they get some. It has been a while since I tried, though. I have had no luck in getting TSC in Plainfield to get the Nuzu - maybe if there are two of us? I'm afraid to commit to a large quantity until trying a couple of bags - my old guy is a "sneak" picky eater - he will love something for a week or two before deciding he doesn't want that anymore . . . .

I've been testing my hay (orchard grass with a bit of big red clover) since 2006, through two drought years, and haven't had a batch too high in sugar or starch yet. I hasten to say that this has all been from the same few fields, same farmer, and the testing is still important for balancing minerals. Just to let you know that it shouldn't be too hard to find appropriate hay in our area. 

Best of luck. Much to learn here, keep reading. Dr. Kellon's two-for-one holiday deal on her courses is also a great investment (NRC+ and Cushings and Insulin Resistance), if it's in the budget after all the testing, etc. 
--
Melinda  2010

IN

Cato Case History 

Thank you Jaini and Dr K for your thoughts.

Re protein/amino acid supplement: In my above post I mentioned trying Duralactin, but meant microlactin, the active ingredient in Duralactin, which you had suggested to me before. (I  found Duralactin to have added zinc and manganese which he doesn't need, and you're not kidding it's whopping expensive!) I found Microlactin powder at Swanson. Is this ok to give? I understand it's meant for human consumption and as per the post you forwarded me by Dr Kellon, it should be dosed at 4-5x human dose.  The photo doesn't show a list of ingredients, so I'll call the company to find out if there is any added sugar or flavoring.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-microlactin-powder-4-9-oz-140-grams-pwdr

Re ACTH: Already have started increasing dose by another mg.  Will test in 3 wks.  Looking for ACTH to hit mid - high teens and hoping for insulin below 20. Am working on desensitizing to needle by poking with a toothpick with a bit of clicker training. Last Friday's Pentosan injection was 80% less stressful than last!  Thanks for that tip!!

Re Vitamin C: His Fe:Cu ratio is 4:1, but he has never reliably eaten 100% of his supps every day so his diet will never be as tight as it's supposed to be.  Still OK to give the C?

Thanks again,

-- Suzanne July 20

Western CO

Monty Case History, Photo Album

Invitation:
Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly

When:
Tuesday, 1 November 2016

Description:

This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the Message Posting Guidelines below:
 
1) READ the Start Here Documents.  Unless you are in an emergency situation, before posting in the messages, please read the documents you were sent upon joining.  They are designed to speed you through the set up process so we can help you help your equine in the most efficient way possible. 

2) Check the Wiki for "How To" Pages (and more).  The ECIR has lots of information and finding your way around can be tricky. The Wiki is the place to start. 

3) Sign your posts. This is a very large group.  Whenever posting a message, identify yourself and your equine by using your full ECIR Signature with your first name, location, the date you joined and the link to your Case History folder and Photo Album. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses and perhaps suggestions for local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. Go here for directions on how to make and save your ECIR Signature
 
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- Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List