Date   

Re: Concentrate Question

 

Hi, Cami - you are between a rock and a hard place, living in an area where good hay is scarce.  The unfortunate truth is that either orchard grass or timothy hay could be great, or awful - so much depends on the time of cutting, the state of nutrition of the soil, water parameters, and so on. The only way to know is by testing. Sometimes it is actually cheaper to import tested hay from another state or growing area, rather than trying to find locally grown hay.

These guys are in Florida:  http://thehayexchange.com/products/equine/hay/  

And the hayexchange.com can help locate hay through-out the continent:  http://www.hayexchange.com/ 

It is tough to find very low iron in a lot of these concentrates, because the act of chopping the ingredients results in iron getting in from the equipment. Soy hull pellets seem to have a little less iron than beet pulp; other safe feeds include Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes,  TC 30, LMF Low NSC Stage 1, LMF Low NSC Complete, http://lmffeeds.com/products/low-nsc-complete/  but they all will be higher in iron than most hays, so if you can feed more hay and less concentrate, you will be ahead of the game.

The non-IR horses can eat exactly the same as the IR horses; if you find they can't keep weight on with their work-load, they can have a 50:50 (by dry weight) meal of oats and beet within the first hour after finishing work. This is ONLY if you absolutely know they are not IR; and usually the work load has to be pretty heavy to need this.

Has your hay been tested? Perhaps they need, as you say, a better quality hay, with more protein and better digestibiliy. Common reasons for dropping weight are: not enough calories (increase amount fed); insufficient protein (might be cheapest to just add some Tri Amino); parasites; uncontrolled IR; uncontrolled PPID; ulcers; poor teeth; old age and reduced muscle mass.

More details needed - do you have a case history on any of your horses? I know filling out the case histories is a pain, but it sure helps to get all the details so the volunteers can help you to help your horses.


Re: Whey Protein Isolate

 

Awesome, thanks, Cami!  I actually looked at a few of those websites/ "articles" myself when looking for a hexane/whey connection. 

You are correct in that hexane is used to remove fat from soybeans; the resulting mash/kibbles/flakes are then processed (by filtration or whatever) to get the protein isolates out.  That thought does make me squirm a bit, and I need to do more research about hexane residues in the protein meal and the oil fraction.

Whey is an entirely different animal. No fat is removed by solvents (most of the butterfat is retained in the cheese part of the cheese-making process, some is centrifuged out in the whey concentrating process, and the rest is filtered out). Filtration is as organic as one can get.  If one is very concerned about antibiotic or de-worming residues in milk, then using organic whey protein or whey protein isolate is reasonable. Please do note that all drugs given to milking cattle have a withdrawal period, during which time the milk from those animals must be discarded, which vastly reduces any chance of residues.

 ALL the other stuff in those articles is pretty much rubbish, sadly; made-up stuff without an atom of proof.  I am absolutely not trying to attack you; I just would like to point out that there is some very bad (or non-existant) science in all of those websites or news articles, and some very astute marketing. Except for CBS (which is just looking for sensation), all the others have something to sell.  

Somebody sat down, and said:"Cows weren't born to eat corn, therefore all corn-fed cow's milk must be toxic."  Really!  Since cattle are fore-gut fermenters, a lot of the dietary inputs are evened out by the many bacteria. It is absolutely true that diet can affect milk quality and quantity, but more in the sense that absolute deficiencies will result in first reduced quantity, then, well down the road (which no farmer will ever allow his cows to get to) there may be reduced fat in the milk.   Diet will certainly change some of the fatty-acid ratios in the milk, and sometimes the flavour, but we need to remember that whey protein has already had the fat removed.

Ditto concerns about "acidifying" and  and the hype to eat "alkalizing" foods. There is zero science about this, beyond the well-researched and very repeatable studies that show the body keeps it's blood and tissue pH within very tight parameters. The only time a body is in a state of acidosis is not due to diet: it is due to organ dysfunction, certain toxins, or hypoxia.

Somebody else sat down and said:"Cows are not kept in a natural state, therefore hemp is best"; countered by "grass fed cows are number one, therefore cows on grass 365 days per year produce great whey; hemp is the very devil"  Again, there is zero science. (yes, there is lots of good science about the difference in fatty acids in the meat and milk of grass fed vs grain fed cattle, but that is not relevant with regards to whey protein).

Here are a couple of Dr. Kellon's articles about bad science; and I know Dr. Gustafson has a great post somewhere about red flags in advertising, but I can't find it at the moment.  https://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/page/4/  https://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/nutritional-advertising-hooks/ 

It is good that you brought this up! I had no idea these weird ideas were circulating around the on the internet (I mean, these particular weird ideas)

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Whey Protein Isolate

 

Hi Jaini,

A dietician that I have used in the past (for me-not my horses) mentioned the importance of organic protein supplements (I don't believe they are allowed to use hexane processing), and to try to avoid isolate forms.  These aren't very technical articles, but might give a more detailed explanation than I am able to provide...

http://cleanproteinrevolution.com/whey-concentrate-vs-whey-isolate-3/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/soy-burger-with-a-side-of-toxin/

https://fabulouslydomestic.com/2011/05/03/isolated-protein/

http://www.prevention.com/food/healthy-eating-tips/how-healthy-soy-protein-isolate

--
Cami Kanner

Vero Beach, FL

0815



Concentrate Question

 

Hello all,

I am having a difficult time reworking the diets of two Haflingers and a Mustang, all have the potential for IR.  With limited pasture now, I am attempting to determine the safest sources of concentrate/hay for the three.  They have all been on first cut Timothy for the spring/summer months, and just a handful of Copra as a carrier for their minerals, etc. 

Now they are all dropping weight, so I will need to increase the quality of hay and/or add more concentrate.  I am leaning towards Orchard Grass hay, if the starch level is acceptable, but I'm not sure about an acceptable level of protein?

I am also looking at Stabul 1 or Triple Crown Lite for the concentrate, but based on the analysis in the files section of the group, it looks like the TC Lite is testing at 13.4% ESC+Starch and 371mg/lb of Iron and the Stabul 1 has less ESC+Starch at 6.7%, but still has 278mg/lb of Iron......which I am trying to minimize.

Would any of the above options be acceptable as a diet for my other non-IR horses? Quality hay is difficult to locate in South Florida (and very pricey), so if I can find something the barn can eat, it will be much easier to test/balance......and hopefully provide the best nutrition for the volume to minimize cost.

Thanks in advance for any input/suggestions......
--
Cami Kanner

Vero Beach, FL

0815


Flax seed and Flax oil

 

One of those "Just for your information" posts.

Horses on pasture eat about 17 grams/day omega 3 (1,000 lb horse)

Flax seed (ground) 3 oz (weight) = 84 grams= 180 mls = .72 cups = 19.2 grams omega 3 = 1,000 lb horse

Flax oil  1.3 oz (weight) = 36 grams = 38.5 mls = 2.6 tbspns = 19.2 grams omega 3 = 1,000 lb horse

Bunch more math below, just for the sake of completeness:

Flax oil      = 533 mg omega 3/ gram;  1 tablespoon flax oil    = 14 grams= 7196 mg omega 3;  1/2 tablespoon flax oil  = 7 grams = 3598 mg omega 3

Flax seed = 228 mg omega 3/ gram;  1 tablespoon flaxseed = 7  grams  = 1597 mg omega 3;  1 tablespoon flax seed = 7 grams =1597 mg omega 3

Flax oil      = 479.7 mg omega 3/ ml;   15 mls flax oil = 7196 mg omega 3;  

Flax seed = 106.5 mg omega 3/ ml;    15 mls flax seed = 1597 mg omega 3;


Flax seed / 2.25 = flax oil (weight)

Flax oil X 2.25 = flax seed (weight)

Flax seed / 4.5 = flax oil (volume)

Flax oil X 4.5 = flax seed (volume)



Flax seed = 2.14 mls/gram= .143 tbspns/gram= 1 tablespn/7 grams

Flax oil = 1.07 mls/gram = .0714 tbspn/ gram = 1 tabspn/ 14 grams



--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Least expensive source of Omega 3

 

I buy whole flax seed in the bulk section at my local grocery store - Winco here in Idaho but other grocery chains have bulk aisles too.  It is 84 cents/lb which is the best price I've found anywhere so far.  I grind a weeks worth for two horses in a coffee grinder and keep it refrigerated.  

Jill, Khari & Jetty in Idaho


Re: Beet Pulp and Excessive Gas?

 

Sorry, I meant super hot in MI. (kind of like WI. just with the "W" upside down!)
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Beet Pulp and Excessive Gas?

 

Hi, Wendi - Well, you have a very clear diagnosis of PPID and marked IR. With any luck (given Levi's breed), the high insulin will be brought under control with the pergolide and proper diet. The current high leptin, though (12.42 ng/mL, normal 1-10 ng/mL), it could be that he is IR at baseline, as well as PPID (dang!) Thanks for the case history and links!

 I am glad he is eating his beet pulp. How much is he getting? The change in diet from him finally eating the beet pulp might be enough to cause the gas. Has his hay changed at all in the meantime? Anything else changed?

The initial rinse of the beet pulp is to remove excess dirt and iron. It is the ideal thing, but I do realize that one has to tread lightly with a boarding barn. You could buy a large colander (I mean really big, like serious pasta makers use), to make it easy to rinse the BP before-hand without it splashing all over the place. If it can't be done, though, so be it. Not rinsing shouldn't be causing gas. Unless it is super hot in WI right now, letting the BP sit for a couple of hours shouldn't be an issue, either. Try cutting the amount of BP in half for a couple of days, and see if that helps. Keep up the good work, and hugs to Levi the Gas-man.


Re: Gunnar's case history

 

Hi, Carla - Thanks for the case history!

Well, you have a very clear diagnosis of PPID, and uncompensated IR. The normal leptin seems to suggest that the insulin is being driven by the PPID; but I would treat him as baseline IR for the future, anyway, even when the PPID is under control (unless you have clear bloodwork showing otherwise, such insulin and glucose showing "non-IR" in the calculator)

No more Purina Senior for Gunnar!  With a starch of 12% and sugar of 7%, it is unsuitable:  https://www.purinamills.com/horse-feed/products/equine-senior-horse-feed  Safe bagged feeds include:  rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp, soy hull pellets, Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, Nuzu Stabul 1, Triple Crown TC Lite (very small amounts), TC 30, LMF Low NSC Stage 1, LMF Low NSC Complete, http://lmffeeds.com/products/low-nsc-complete/  

The Equi-Shine, unfortunately, is most unlikely to balance your hay. https://www.drschoicesupplements.com/product/equi-shine-pellet-50-lb-bag/     It only gives 120 mg copper and 300 mg of zinc. The very barest minimum for an 1100 lb horse is 130 mg of copper and 345 mg of zinc. This is not even taking into account the amount of iron that needs to be compensated for in the diet. My usual balance for my own hay is always between 300 and 600 mg of copper and 750 to 1200 mg of zinc.  Also, the website doesn't list the ingredients, the iron levels, or the sugar and starch levels, so if it were me, I wouldn't use it. It ain't helping, and it may be harming.

A safe general mix is Uckele's U-Foundation:  http://equine.uckele.com/u-balance-foundation.html   It may have too much calcium for your hay, (especially for the alfalfa mix)  but it does have a good amount of copper and zinc; and although it doesn't list iron, there are no high-iron ingredients in it. It doesn't list sugar or starch, but it has been given the okay by Dr. Kellon. It is a good interim product to use while awaiting hay testing. Another great product is California Trace Plus: http://www.californiatrace.com/  

Is there any way you can sweet-talk your vet into increasing the pergolide, and using compounded? In my opinion, an increase is clearly indicated, but I do realize it may be tough sledding getting it done.

Synopsis: Stop the Purina Senior and Equi-Shine. Try to wangle an increase of pergolide. Get your hay tested; in the meantime, use either of the above two supplements.

Hugs to Gunnar and Cupcake.



Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Whey Protein Isolate

 

Hi,Cami -I certainly haven't heard of isolate products using hexane gas, or being toxic. Hexane is an organic solvent, present in gasoline, and it makes no sense to use it for polar compounds like amino acids(can't imagine it even working on whey products), when perfectly safe and relatively inexpensive methods of separating out the amino acids such as filtration (micro and ultra); and ion exchange are available. Hexane is sometimes used to extract oils from seeds (canola, cottonseed). Where did this info about hexane come from?

Suzanne, a standard amount of whey protein isolate for giving a little protein boost to the diet is 70 to 100 grams (2 to 2.5 scoops of the usual product. It has the extra advantage, as you know, of aiding the immune system, but I haven't been able to pinpoint the amount necessary for that (although 40 grams daily sticks in my mind - I could well be mistaken)
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Please look at Tara's new blood work results

 

Oops - didn't realize that HorseTech has an amino acid supplement as well:  https://horsetech.com/nutramino 
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy


 


Re: Please look at Tara's new blood work results

 

Hi, Deborah -    Even just coming off the seasonal rise, 44 pg/mL (9-35) is what I would call in the grey area, meaning there may have been a more significant rise from August (when she started losing topline) until now.  Not helpful, I know, but my gut instinct is that ACTH and PPID are not the culprits here.

Other potential causes of weight/topline loss include ulcers, and insufficient protein. "Insufficient protein", however, seems to be the affliction de jour, accounting for everything from lethargy to hangnails, according to popular press.

 820 grams of protein in 25 kg of hay theoretically should be sufficient at her level of work (she should need between 660 grams and 700 grams); however, horses don't always follow textbook recommendations!   Also, the hay may be deficient in some of the essential amino acids, such as lysine and methionine.  Dr. Kellon, please step in if I am off base here.

Safe ways of increasing protein are to use a supplement such as Tri Amino:  http://equine.uckele.com/tri-amino-muscle.html  (this has the best ratio of lysine/methionine/threonine)

Whey Protein Isolate (various sources, including https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/basic-ingredients/whey-protein-isolate-powder Use 2 scoops )

Whey Powder (various sources) use about 100 grams to get about 9 grams lysine, 7 grams threonine, and 2 grams methionine (although ideally, the methionine in the diet should be about half of the lysine,  which it is in the Tri Amino)

Most bagged protein supplements are not safe for IR horses (but I know you know that!)

If it were me, I would start her on the Uckele Tri Amino (I have no affiliation with this company, and, in fact, can't  even get 90% of their products in Canada). I would then test her ACTH in mid-August and again in mid to late September.

Thanks for the case history link!
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Whey Protein Isolate

 

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't the isolate form of most proteins (unless organic) toxic because it is extracted through a process that uses hexane gas? I know I avoid the isolate form of proteins, unless they are specifically organic, at all costs.
--
Cami Kanner

Vero Beach, FL

0815


Re: Safe way to add weight to an IR horse

 

Hi, LIndsey - With an older horse that is not maintaining weight, and that has a depressed appetite, my Number One Go-To is to check the ACTH.  It is very common for PPID (Cushing's) to sneak up on one; sometimes the first sign is fall laminitis, but sometimes the very first sign is weight loss and reduced appetite.

If Marseille were mine, I would run an ACTH, and also a CBC and chem screen. (to check for renal issues, and other potential causes of weight loss and reduced appetite)  If funds don't allow blood-testing, then seen if you can talk your vet into a trial of pergolide. Give 0.25 mg to start with, and increase by 0.25 mg every 3 or 4 days until you get to 1 mg.  Using APF or APF Pro at this time will also help avoid the Pergolide Veil, a transient condition of lethargy and lack of appetite.   Take a picture of his topline and body condition when you start; make a note of his appetite; and do this one/week for the next few months.  

Other causes of weight loss and picky appetite are dental issues, and ulcers.  Go here for some info on ulcers: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Ulcers 

Having been through this more than once, I can't emphasize enough that in these cases, determining the cause of the problem is paramount, rather than using higher calorie food first.

Hope that helps!

--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Need more help managing & handling Satra - partially blind PPID/IR mare

 

Cass, I am sorry to be coming in late hear (I am on the road). Satra has been very lucky to have you as her person - very lucky indeed. It is never easy, and my heart goes out to you.
--

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Safe way to add weight to an IR horse

lindsey2252@...
 

Good evening,

I first found this group in late 2006-ish, and thanks to the information I found here, my severely IR/laminitic gelding is still hanging in there. I've not had a chance to create a new case history, and have to dig old labs out of box, but I will.

I will give a brief background, and hope that I can get a bit of advice.

Marseille was diagnosed in 2006 when he developed a severe case of laminitis. He had been retired from a show and endurance career about a year prior, outwardly healthy. All of his labs confirmed that he had severe IR, no Cushings. With help from this group, his trim was righted, diet corrected, etc. He has never been truly 100% sound since, but was able to be lightly worked for a couple more years. His labs were never normal- though they did improve a huge amount-  even with a super tight diet. 

He is now 24, but looks older than his age. His feet are in great shape, but he's lost a significant amount of weight over the last couple of months. He is on a dry lot and is getting ~6 lbs ODTB, flax, salt, and essentially free choice coastal hay- although he doesn't eat a lot of hay. He won't really eat more ODTB than that. We used to feed R/S/R beer pulp, but he got to the point he wouldn't eat it. 

I'm considering adding some type of concentrate to put on a few more pounds for winter.  we are in Georgia, so it shouldn't be brutal, but he's thinner than I like, and I like him pretty lean.

I'm able to get any triple crown product, and am considering either their senior, lite, or safe starch forage. I would consider a mix of those if it makes sense- maybe the senior plus the forage.

I've sent out a FEC just in case, but don't have results yet. I also plan on drawing labs again soon, as it's been a while. 

Any suggestions on those feeds?

Thank you all,

Lindsey and Marseille


Re: Cavalor Strucomix grain

Beth Dorval <bdorval74@...>
 

I also feed the Fiberforce to my two IR/cushings horses. Been very happy with it, better manure quality and they love eating it over everything else I have tried. Great to get supplements and meds into them!
Been feeding Cavalor for over a year and all my horses have done very well on it.


Sent from my iPad

On Nov 18, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Claudia Goodman <claudia@...> wrote:

I have used Cavalor Fibre Force for my IR mare. She loves it and it improved the quality of her manure. Unfortunately, I cannot get it nearby, so I am not using it at the moment, but it worked well when it was available, and I would use it again.
--

Claudia & Silhouette  02/2014

California Central Coast 

Silhouette Case History


Re: frequent urination and IR

Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 02:59 pm, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
PU/PD are only seen in IR if the horse is diabetic - glucose out of control.  It's much more common in PPID and originates in the hypothalamus.  As Cathy found out, it is also a common early symptom of PPID and is sometimes only seen during the seasonal rise.

 Hi Dr. Kellon,

Thanks for clarifying this information which I misunderstood.

Follow up question:  For early PPID horses that develop laminitis in the fall, is it higher insulin that is contributing to that or can the insulin be normal (or compensated) and the horse still develop laminitis?

Thank you,
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx




Whey Protein Isolate

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Anybody know how much whey protein isolate to feed 850 lb horse?
--
Suzanne July 2014

Western CO

Monty Case History, Photo Album


Re: Cavalor Strucomix grain

Claudia Goodman
 

I have used Cavalor Fibre Force for my IR mare. She loves it and it improved the quality of her manure. Unfortunately, I cannot get it nearby, so I am not using it at the moment, but it worked well when it was available, and I would use it again.
--

Claudia & Silhouette  02/2014

California Central Coast 

Silhouette Case History

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