Date   

Re: Floss's Xrays

Tori & Floss
 

Hey Lavinia,

I have now added all relevant photos to Floss's album so hopefully can do a mark-up now.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347

Thank you!


--
Tori

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Floss 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347



Re: new member, trim evaluation request

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kristen,

Here's a link to one:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/photo/1755/0?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

The reason he has flared, pancake feet is that the toes are being left too long horizontally and the walls are being ALLOWED to flare instead of being kept tightly beveled inward. Same goes for his mum. It is fixable on both of them but someone needs to do the fixing and then maintain it.

How long to wait before starting formal exercise is going to depend on how long it takes to get the trim set up correctly so the feet start to actually heal. Once the template is in place - and being maintained there - need to wait until there is at least half of the damaged hoof grown out. This is especially important in a horse as big as Jasper because gravity is working against you. A pony/small horse will usually come back much more quickly. If there is no active laminitis, adding Jiaogulan to the supplements will help increase circulation and that will increase the rate of growth.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Splash Lab results

Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 03:55 pm, k frog wrote:

Is my diet not tight enough? My hay tests at 10.3% ESC/Starch and I am soaking it for one hour. I am thinking of retesting this hay to verify the results that were given to me by the hay dealer at the time of purchase. Does this seem a reasonable path to investigate? I have enough of this hay in my loft for the rest of this season. Is it possible that even soaking this hay is not going to work for her?

 Exercise? I will have radiographs taken again in a few weeks. If those show that her feet are back in balance, and she is travelling sound, would it be possible to start her back into some kind of exercise? I realize ideally her feet need a full year to rebuild the damaged capsule, but without exercise?

 When should I retest her Insulin and/or not, Glucose? And can I retest those values at a different lab?(I can run those tests at Antech through my work at a discount)

 Hi Karen,

The results indicate that insulin is not controlled, so you have your diagnosis part of the DDTE protocol.  Now you are questioning your diet, which is the right thing to do.  Looking at your hay analysis, it ought to soak out well.  I had a similar hay, soaked 7 lbs in a 15 gallon tub filled with well water, soaked for an hour, drained well, and when I dried a sample and sent it for testing, it came back about 6% ESC + starch.  The starch won't change because it isn't very water soluble, but the ESC should come down 30% or more.  How much water are you using?  Are you draining it well?  You could dry a sample and get that retested along side a new hay test of the unsoaked.  Retesting the hay is a good idea, using the trainer's package.  Is she getting any grass?  Unauthorized treats?

Exercise is the best IR buster there is, but only to the extent that she is comfortable and walking correctly,  For more information:

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-exercise

It's best to test both insulin and glucose to monitor her IR status, but I wouldn't retest until you've made some changes that may be improving her insulin.  Cornell is the recommended lab for this blood work.
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx




Re: new member, trim evaluation request

Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 05:39 pm, <kguest@...> wrote:
I also want to be clear about exercise right now. Are we looking at nothing for 6-9 months from the time these feet finally achieves their proper shape? He's about halfway grown out from the laminitis episode last May.

 Hi Kristen,

Exercise is an important part of recovery.  Please see this summary from our ECIRhorse.org site, which describes the progression to follow for a recovering laminitic horse.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-exercise


--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx




Re: treating laminitis correctly,

LJ Friedman
 

I'd love to show her a study that icing doesnt help...  I thought dr kellon posted a few... will look thru posts
--
LJ Friedman San Diego Npv 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 


Re: new member, trim evaluation request

kguest@...
 

Thank you Lavinia. The farrier is coming Friday; I have the vet coming on Feb. 10th and will do x-rays (and bloodwork), then have the farrier back immediately after that. For Friday, do you have a picture of a snubbed off toe I can show my farrier? Jasper has always had flared pancake feet (like his mum), but the length issue has come about since last spring (my regular farrier is battling a serious illness and so I've had someone else kindly step up in the interim). It would help if I could show him what the final product we're aiming for looks like, in addition to the marked up photos.

I also want to be clear about exercise right now. Are we looking at nothing for 6-9 months from the time these feet finally achieves their proper shape? He's about halfway grown out from the laminitis episode last May.

Kristen and Jasper

December 16, BC Canada


Re: treating laminitis correctly,

Nancy C
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 02:56 pm, LJ Friedman wrote:
So, that will be  my rule .  But,  what to say to the trainer that thinks the icing helped, based on her observations with Jesse?  
--

 He's my horse.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Splash Lab results

k frog
 

Hi All,

 I have the results from the ACTH 13.5 pg/mL, Insulin 45.12 uIU/mL, Leptin 10.04 ng/mL, Glucose 90mg/dL testing back on Splash. Please see her case history (to be updated soon by LeeAnne) for results.  My interpretation is that she is uncompensated I/R and not PPID. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 In light of these results I would love some advice. Is my diet not tight enough? My hay tests at 10.3% ESC/Starch and I am soaking it for one hour. I am thinking of retesting this hay to verify the results that were given to me by the hay dealer at the time of purchase. Does this seem a reasonable path to investigate? I have enough of this hay in my loft for the rest of this season. Is it possible that even soaking this hay is not going to work for her?

 Exercise? I will have radiographs taken again in a few weeks. If those show that her feet are back in balance, and she is travelling sound, would it be possible to start her back into some kind of exercise? I realize ideally her feet need a full year to rebuild the damaged capsule, but without exercise?

 When should I retest her Insulin and/or not, Glucose? And can I retest those values at a different lab?(I can run those tests at Antech through my work at a discount)

 I am so glad I have the depth of knowledge that is here to help me navigate my way through this.  Splash and I thank you for your help. 

 
--
Karen F

October 2013

Molalla, Oregon

Case History for Splash: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Splash

Photo Album for Splash: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1994











Re: Copper Blood work and pergolide adjustments - Vet help please

Jodie Jensen
 

Thank you for your thoughts Jaini. I've kept parts to comment on below.

"1) The insulin seems to definitely follow the ACTH rises." True except in April 2016 where ACTH went down and was controlled at 19 and insulin still went up.

"3) I know this is a very remote possibility, but is there anything happening at the post office or in the delivery trucks/aircraft between the pharmacy and your mail box?" Not likely since the last batch was sent overnight due to an issue with PetHealth Pharmacy. I've had multiple issues with them administratively but that's a different topic!

"4) This could be something that we don't really understand, and you might have to keep raising the pergolide. I do know how financially painful this can be - big ouch!" I don't mind going up on the dose if I'm not throwing money away but that's the part I'm not sure about. Am I spending a ton of money that should be put elsewhere?

"The diet is stellar-perfect, so no need to worry about that." Good to have confirmation on that because I felt like it was.

"Keeping him a skinny minny may help as well, but that darn ACTH is a worry." Yes it is and I'll get him back to the 1130 weight. I do hope you or Dr. Kellon can make a suggestion since I have to order his pergolide this week. Should I up it? How much? Should I wait until April and test again at the low? I'd really like to get his insulin down and keep him sound so we can ride all spring and summer.

Thanks for any more thoughts.

 
--
Jodie, Copper, Emmy and Gang

WA 2007

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodie%20and%20Copper%20-%20Emmy/Copper



Hay Results

Amy
 

Ok!  I am on to my next steps.

I just received my hay results.  But......I am not sure how to read them or what I am looking for "exactly".  I thought there was a "hay calculator" but I have searched everywhere and I can't seem to find it.

Anyone able to take a look at my CH and tell me what they think of my hay results?  And/or direct me to where the calculator might be (if there is one)?

Assuming my hay is OK, I will start balancing his diet with any supplements that he will need.  If anyone can help with that within this group, I will listen.  :)  If not, I know I need to email my CH & my hay results to one of our contacts and work directly with them.  Another NOTE:  He is a very picky eater and he hates all things "powder".  I know I am probably going to have to work diligently to change this.  He has been this way for 13 years (his entire life) currently he is getting his Flax seed & Salt on his soaked hay but hoping to change that "if" my hay is ok.

I am hoping my hay is fine and I can move onto the next steps and get Stormy rolling into a better life.

My CH is also updated 100% (except for the Emergency diet info- which I was advised by another member that I will need to update that once I get my hay/supplements in place). Currently he is getting soaked hay, 2 Mag pills (which he fights and probably isn't getting all of them, 1 Vit E & 4 tbs Flax seed & 1 tbs salt (per the emergency diet).

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album



treating laminitis correctly,

LJ Friedman
 

Makes sense that if a horse gets laminits for a second time, we learn some things we did wrong the first time..     I think I've learned:

  never ice a laminitic horse with endocirne problems   ( unless by some mircacle you are able to ice within the first hour of the start-up of the lamimnitis)  If not, it can be painful.  

So, that will be  my rule .  But,  what to say to the trainer that thinks the icing helped, based on her observations with Jesse?  
--
LJ Friedman San Diego Npv 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 


Re: jesse's exam and blood draw today

LJ Friedman
 

Farrier  is coming on Tues..  Lavania, if you could critique the latest trim, in a way that can help the farrier achieve our goals. for next trim for next tuesday.? And  perhaps a touch up for this tuesday? thanks


Dental vet coming on tues..  any reason not to treat?  any reactions with sedation and metformin?  j herb etc?  

I walked Jesse today..  he did well with the short walk.-- 

LJ Friedman San Diego Npv 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 


Re: shipping boot/warm

jakehorse10
 

Thank you, this helps me understand the objective. My local tack store is out of stock right now so I am searching on my internet favorites!
--
Monti/Jake in Mich 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Monti%20and%20Jake


Re: Was IR Increase -Now Toe tenderness with Pulse

 

He is on a mineral mix based on his hay and the ODTB cubes. This was not created by me! I did play around with flavor enhancing, the alfalfa pellets then the TC Lite when he was reluctant to eat the cubes with all the salt and minerals. I figured that quantity was small enough to not need a change in minerals. He had lost weight during a period in Dec when he had a virus with high fever. His exercise level went to nil for over a week and the crummy weather kept his exercise level lower for some time. Still had him out walking undersaddle but slick footing reduced energy consumption. I let him gain some weight again.

So, I could drop back to ODTB cubes, his minerals & salt, flax and vit E. Soak his hay, not a problem, I rinse all hay in a tub anyway and horse is here at home. Magnesium in hay alone meets his requirements. His diet balancing required no additional Mg.

I do have PhytoQuench on hand and had been thinking about adding it back into his diet. I FORGOT this. I had been feeding it at half dose and dropped it out of his diet when he was sick and not wanting to eat. 

I just read a recommendation for using PhytoQuench to help fight the inflammation of laminitis. Any reason to not give Phytoquench ATT?

Is Metformin an Rx drug? So far my searches have found posts about on going use but would like to read a post with an explanation about it's use and how to use it, when to use it.

I take it Jiaogulan tastes bad? Good source? Uckele or ?



--
- Bonnie 07-2016

Charles County, Maryland

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Tom Hoof trim evaluation

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Cheryl,

I edited your post to make your links clickable . I did this by hitting Enter after each link.This allows volunteers to go directly to the documents..

I have a few questions.:-)


Did you mean Tom is 16.3 HH ? Or for a weight of 1800 lbs,maybe you meant 17.2HH ?

I'm not familiar with the products you are feeding. Can you provide links? Or maybe others know what they are.

And is he eating from a round bale free choice?

Can you give the dry weight of the beet pulp fed?

I'd be feeding more than 1.8 oz of flax ,if he were my horse, just as a comment.

Have you had a recent ACTH done?His numbers were pretty high last year,and 1mg pergolide is fairly low. But maybe that has worked for him?


I can't find your hay analysis, but if you would like someone to balance it for you,we have a list of Balancers in the Files. Go to Diet Balancing - # 6, and scroll down.


Sorry for all the questions!



--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Re: Tom Hoof trim evaluation

Cheryl
 
Edited

At this time I just have the results for the hay test and am hoping based on what Tom is currently being fed you could offer suggestions to ensure there are no deficiencies in his diet.  

--
Cheryl in MN
04-16

--
Cheryl in MN

04-2016

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Tom/Tom%20Case%20History.pdf


Tom's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1961



Re: new member, trim evaluation request

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Kristen,

I've added mark-ups to Jasper's album here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0

The general overview is that the feet are overgrown in many dimensions. Just because Jasper is a big boy doesn't mean that the feet should be allowed to to become long, flared and pancake-soled so that they fit some sort of internal picture we have of what a large horse's feet "should" look like. They need to be kept true to their genetic blueprint, which will tightly align them to the structures within so they can correctly support his mass. Right now, the toes are much too long horizontally, heels are severely under run and leaning outward, soles are thin and lack concavity, frogs have been stretched forward. The RF has a more upright configuration while the LF has been allowed to become flatter and longer - a situation termed high-low. These are all trim issues. Goals are to bring the toes back in the horizontal plane, move the heels back under him where they belong, remove the flaring all around.

LF lateral: White-out are is an idea of how the toes need to backed up to get rid of the excess toe length. Do not then thin the entire dorsal wall to make it blend visually into the backed toe - just address the lower third at each subsequent trim until it grows out.

RF dorsal: Lime lines are where the hoof capsule should be. Outside of these lines are the flares. The medial wall appears to be flaring more significantly than the lateral - which likely means it is also taller than the lateral wall. Need to bring these in hard, from the top, then bevel under so the disconnected material is relieved from ground contact to allow it to regrow well attached. Beveling will redirect shearing forces away from the compromised connections to allow them to regrow solidly attached.

RF lateral: This also has the LF medial in it. The light blue lines follow the coronary band - note the arched shape. It should be even, with no bulges upward. The arched areas indicate areas of the hoof capsule that are taller than the adjacent areas. Follow the tubules down from their start at the coronary band to the ground to find which areas need to be adjusted. Yellow lines follow some of the tubules from start to ground - note how run forward they are, more severely as you move from front to back. Also worse on the LF than the RF. Purple line follows one growth ring around the hoof capsule - note how uneven it is. Those waves indicate where the hoof is uneven is length at ground level, with the higher areas being longer than the dipped areas.

LF lateral: Blue line follows the arch of the coronary band. Yellow lines follow more horn tubules. Note the disparity between the front one and the ones further back. Pink line follows the dorsal wall, which has a slight bull-nosed configuration. It means the dorsal wall is being rasped flatter to make it appear straight from top to bottom. Unfortunately, this is disguising the fact that the toe is much too long horizontally. Purple line is where the last horn tubules at the heel should be located. Red line starts where they actually are and spans the distance where they "aren't" because they have run forward and have been squashed under.

RF sole: Green is where the healthy hoof capsule should be. Everything outside this line is flared, stretched walls that need to be brought inward. Toe backed up between 10 and 2, then walls brought inward. This should be done from the top so as NOT to remove any sole. Purple are the current heel buttresses, blue is where they should be, even with the widest part of the frog and with each other. Moving them rearward will take time as right now the rear half of the foot is lower than it should be with respect to the front half, leading to a likely ground parallel coffin bone situation. With the soles likely being thin, there is no way to make major changes to their location except in small increments done frequently. This means running the rasp once over the area directly behind the current location of the heel buttresses to flatten it and extend the heel buttresses rearward but preserve the already-compromised vertical height as much as possible.

Red is about where the true tip of the frog is - approximately 1" ahead of where the bars terminate in the collateral grooves. It doesn't need to be removed at this time, just need to be aware that it is being stretched forward as the entire hoof capsule is sliding forward. Yellow areas are the bars that are leaning outward, pooling over the sole and pressuring the walls at the heels and quarters to flare to the outside. Need to start taming them back into a more upright configuration but DO NOT amputate them as they are serving an extremely important structural function due to the loss of support from the rest of foot. Need to work on them from the outside working back in toward the frog over time.

LH dorsal: Blue lines show the significant flares, esp. the lateral wall in the heel area. You can probably feel an abrupt change in the angle if you place your hand on the hoof wall and slide it gently from front to back. The area where that flare abruptly starts is under quite a bit of stress and if not relieved, could result in a quarter crack over time.

LH lateral: Purple line follows the curving coronary band angle. Blue line highlights the bull-nosed appearance of the dorsal wall. This is a red-flag for the toes being both too long horizontally AND higher than the heels = a ground parallel or negative plane coffin bone. Yellow lines again highlight the run forward and  flattened angle of the tubules in the heels.

LH sole: Same as RF sole with the added issue of the bulging flare in the lateral wall. Green arrows emphasize the areas that are all too far out from the healthy hoof template. Need to bring all of those ares inward/back, from the top and bevel under to help deflect the concussive forces away from the damaged laminar connections.

The trim schedule will need to be short - no more than 2 weeks between adjustment initially - or you won't be able to maintain any changes made. Once toes get ahead and heels run under, it becomes like an out-of-control freight train, with the toes being the engine that hauls the rest of the foot ahead at an astonishingly fast pace. To stop the train, you need to apply the brakes often.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Dosing Absorb-All

jsstults@...
 

Hello...

Starting Tabby on the Absorb-All that Dr. Kellon recommended for her loose/smelly manure.  Wondering if it might be better to give her half the recommended dose of this digestive supplement twice per day, or 100% of the recommended dose at the same time once per day?

Thanks so much, 

Sally 04/2013

Big Park, Arizona

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20and%20Tabby  



Re: shipping boot/warm

Lorna Cane
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 08:32 am, jakehorse10 wrote:
I assume I would have to change regularly so dirt and mud do not accumulate inside.

 It depends.

On the weather, the footing, on Jake's activity.

How often do you see him?

Yes, it's a good idea to make sure shavings,etc. are not accumulating inside.This happens more when they get up from lying down than it does from just daily activity.

If he's tromping through muck you'd want to keep a closer eye. But maybe the muck means the temps have risen and he wouldn't need leg warmers on anyway.

Sometimes snow will accumulate between the hoof boot and the shipping boot,depending on how deep it is,but it's not necessarily a catastrophe.

The velcro used these days is really tough,and if the shipping boots are applied properly they shouldn't come off.......I'm thinking Jake isn't overly active (?)


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Re: New IR horse

 

Hi,  Amy - 

He is more somber and way more chilled than he's ever been in his 13 years. Lately he doesn't seem to care much unless I ride him (small short, easy rides in the pasture) and he seems much more agitated.  Could this just mean he's adjusting to the new diet?  Doesn't feel good because his insulin is still high? Maybe after the hay testing and correct supplements he'll become his "normal" self?

Because this is early on in Stormy's IR journey, it is really hard to say whether his behaviour is due to feeling unwell because of IR; feeling better because of diet; needing more magnesium in his supplements; needing more pergolide or needing less pergolide. Sorry, I know this is not much help.  Go on your travels for work, and when you get home, start a written journal; include his behaviour, gait (striding out, short-strides, toe-first or heel-first landings, demeanor when ridden and so on), plus what he is being fed etc.  This will help sort things out.

Hang in there!

--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy



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